BBG(X) - DISCUSSION ONLY

I did have a serious question to interject with.
Is Congress' mandate that all future surface combatants (unless notified it's not in the national interest by the Def Sec) in the 2008 Defence Authorisation Act and 2009 Defence Authorisation Act (which included all amphibs over 15,000 tons deadweight light ship displacement - whatever the hell that is), still in force or did it fall by the wayside in the intervening years?
What, that they have to make an analysis for whether to fit the ship with nuclear power? That requirement predates those particular acts. It was done for the America-class LPHs.
 
I did have a serious question to interject with.
Is Congress' mandate that all future surface combatants .... in the 2008 Defence Authorisation Act and 2009 Defence Authorisation Act ..., still in force or did it fall by the wayside in the intervening years?
Mandate that all future surface combatants what? It seems to have been lost amid the caveats.
 
Essentially taking the 4-5 genuine newsworthy bits (announcement, budget allocation, supposed nuclear propulsion) that were posted here, tranferring them to the News Only topic and letting the rest vanish (I don't think it would be warranted to transfer it to the modern battleship topic).
Potential major changes to the cost of CPS/Dark Eagle (given the Army appear to be dropping it) aren't relevant?
 
I was just giving examples. The majority of the now 24 pages is mostly just noise and outrage.
As an essentially political project, those things could be argued to be an intrinsic part of the debate about it. Nobody has been 100% free of distorted opinions here, and thats partly because its a concept that throws open the assumptions of what a winning naval force looks like. If anything, the "noise" highlights the gaps in defensive and offensive capabilities of previous platforms and CONOPS that have characterised all navies as we move into a new era of unmanned vehicles and pervasive area denial technologies. The fact that most people here disagree without a hot Pacific war to prove viability their own ideas and assumptions, means that the debate itself has value.
 
The fact that most people here disagree without a hot Pacific war to prove viability their own ideas and assumptions, means that the debate itself has value.
I enjoy a good debate, especially reading one and not partaking myself.

But the matter is that for one, that's not the main focus of the Forum. It's an aspect of it and in many ways tolerated by staff and users alike. But fundamentally this is meant for technical analysis, documentation and developments. And with BBG(X) there has been very little concrete material that fits into those categories, certainly not 24 pages of it. Maybe 3-4 at best. Second and lastly, fruitful discussion, even when concerning peripheral aspects can have merits, absolutely, I'll argue for that myself. But when we fill pages about calibers and various other undefined attributes of a vessel in the early stages of conception, that's not particularly valuable and we're starting to run in circles just for the sake of discussing the ship in question. Let's think about how someone will look at this 4-5 years from now. When they want to look for info on the program on this forum and they have to wade through over 20 pages of mostly redundant pages before the design has even been finalized. I think that's an understandable concern.

So while I don't mind it as much personally, I can definitely understand complaints from users like @Felocie or others about diminishing quality. And that's no finger wagging, I'm honest enough to say that I'm sometimes part of it. But myself and others should always recall some awareness of why we're here, what we want to contribute and what we'd like to see others contribute as well. I actually feel bad every time something genuinely interesting, useful and well sourced gets drowned out in pages of ongoing discussions about weapons bay dimensions, or CPS distribution among the fleet, etc. etc.

Edit: maybe this is more appropriate for the forum feedback thread? Although not necessarily technical Feedback...
 
And once the USN tried to stuff CPS into the DDGX they couldn't fit both CPS and guns into 15-17ktons. They also categorically rejected having some DDGX with CPS and no gun with others with no CPS but including gun.
You're ignoring the much bigger point here which is:

At some point the navy decided DDG(X) missions would be expanded (CPS was not a baseline capability, it was a growth capability via an idea discussed as the Destroyer Payload Module)
That the Navy decided they did not need a new surface combatant design as a priority despite having claimed as such since about 2015 or earlier
That (somehow) a 5in gun has equivalent space and weight requirements as CPS.

See why it doesn't make sense now?
 
As an essentially political project, those things could be argued to be an intrinsic part of the debate
It's not just the political projects, though that exacerbates the problem.

"All modern aircraft projects have four dimensions: span, length, depth and politics.'” Sir Sydney Camm
 
You're ignoring the much bigger point here which is:

At some point the navy decided DDG(X) missions would be expanded (CPS was not a baseline capability, it was a growth capability via an idea discussed as the Destroyer Payload Module)
A "growth capability" that forced the removal of the gun in a 15,000ton ship.

That's not a growth capability.



That the Navy decided they did not need a new surface combatant design as a priority despite having claimed as such since about 2015 or earlier
Don't step in the leadership/politics/bullshit. That way lies madness.



That (somehow) a 5in gun has equivalent space and weight requirements as CPS.
But 4x DPM/APM tubes do take up roughly the same volume as gun turret plus magazine. See the Zumwalts.
 
A "growth capability" that forced the removal of the gun in a 15,000ton ship.

That's not a growth capability.




Don't step in the leadership/politics/bullshit. That way lies madness.




But 4x DPM/APM tubes do take up roughly the same volume as gun turret plus magazine. See the Zumwalts.

A gun is a tertiary system at best and the Zommie gun installation was far, far more invasive than a 5”. The two are absolutely incomparable. I would still like you to repost the source that says the USN “needed” both CPS and 5”; the DDGX renders I saw had a 57mm and CPS as a future option.
 
You're not getting a San Antonio class hull to 28 or 30 knots without doubling the installed horsepower. Just the wrong hull form for it, Length:Beam ratio is too low.

Alaska or Iowa hull form would absolutely work. Maybe North Carolina-class BB hull form (729ft/222m long, 109ft/30m beam, 35ft/10.8m draft) would work, though the NorCals were 28kt battleships not 32kt. 37,000tons standard, 121khp.

Alaska hull is ~240m waterline length, 28m beam, and ~9m draft on 30,000tons standard. 150khp gets you 33 knots. L:B of 8.57
And the mighty Iowa hull is ~262m waterline length, 30m beam, 11.3-11.5m draft on 49ktons standard. 212khp gets you 33 knots. L:B of 8.73

And finally what I think the BBG is going to end up as:
~700ft/213m waterline, 77ft/23.5m beam, 22ft/6.7m draft on ~18,000tons standard/22ktons full load. 120khp gets you 33kts. L:B of 9 (a little high, could add some beam for better seakeeping. 25m/82.5ft beam would make an L:B of 8.53)
Would a nuclear reactor double that HP? If so there ya go. If not, I’m sure they could tweak the hull form to get it up there or at least closer
 
The Battleship is obsolete. Yes, Concept of the warship in general is reaching point of functional irrelevance. Admirals entrenched in Bureaucracy refuse to address changes in contemporary warfare are stuck in the hierarchy role of tonnage/ship types. But the Rise in Drones & All Branches of the military adopting platforms for missiles that can be launched from trucks, coastal batteries, and Airplanes.
The Destroyer is only vessel large enough grant use in conventional navies because demand for missiles large enough equate ballistic missile defense.
Obsolete unless addresses changes to contemporary battlefields; Long live the frigate. Devoting large sophisticated ships with 250-350 crewmen for simple missions like drug countermeasures, sub screening, patrol and interdiction/search and rescue; is a tremendous waste of resources better reserved for Corvettes/Frigates.

And modifying a Barge or derrick to be an "Arsenal ship" carrying hundreds of missiles without incorporating warfare/defense electronics necessary systems it needs to function long term as a warship is dumb, more so outfitting a ship to function with all systems like a warship makes the barge no more/less expensive than building a warship.

Bureaucracy obssessed Navy admirals refuse address modernization of warfare, let alone conceptualization of new ideas that threaten their status quo. But Events in last 30 odd years have revealed glaring weakness contemporary full scale fighting forces at sea.

The future of Naval warfare is sketchy but predictable patterns emerge; but Fleets of ships in formation are incredibly risky idea. The Ukraine war revealed a nation with seemingly small or no real navy can fight against and defeat or deter Big navies. After sinking of the Moskva; Russia withdrew it's naval assets greater distance. Russia was forced attack Ukraine at standoff distances further away using expensive super-hyper sonic missiles which at prices greater than Tomahawk, Not easily replaced and their performace was sketchy with many being intercepted, failing or simply avoided.

"Stealth" ship concepts may fool radar, but they only work against surface horizon, The advent of aircraft with radar's aiming DOWN mitigates lot tactical design that compromise storage and practicality. they are still useful...but growing concern of Optical sensor technology means radar mitigating ship design. Hypersonic weapons may pose genuine threat, but they are still immature technology with questionable track records. And in Ukraine war, were being intercepted/shot down by weapons half their speed. Laser weapons are still fraudulent and dumb weapons, Namely their massive power consumption and accuracy in adverse weather combined with their slow burn times. Since retirement of last battleships; shore bombardment has become a deadlock issue US Navy worked on 30+ years with no definitive solutions, Just billions of dollars of weapons useless to soldiers ashore. Nuclear power for navies was pushed for infinite range, high power, but only BIG navies can afford them and their economies of scale did not emerge to address diminishing cost of operation. There is One reactor technology however that may counter this issue, thus allow Navies to adopt Low cost effective nuclear power plants with minimal labor/crew requirements for small ships to adopt near infinite range; more so acclimate to high power demands contemporary radar/sensor platforms need.

The Rise of the anti-ship missile has never been seriously addressed and navies foolishly believe a few CIWS guns can effectively defend a ship at sea. Navies may have to return to gunned platforms with human eyes and gunners that cannot be electronically fooled. A frigate needs something more akin 10+ .50 caliber machine guns, preferably high rates of fire. And possibly high caliber cannons.

Low cost naval strategy may not even involve ships for one participant. Australia, whose military is not bogged down by bureaucratic dogma, their Navy/air force flies F18s and successfully integrated German anti ship missiles. Flown from airbases as much as 100 miles inland, deploy their payloads and flee they don't even need ships. Taiwan has since acquired over 300 Harpoons. The entire 1982 Falkland's naval war revolved around both sides the employment of just five Exocet anti-ship missiles, which devastated the British fleet when fired from common jet aircraft. Many Argentine jets were later lost trying to drop dumb bombs on ships WWII Style. Had Argentina acquired 100 Exocets instead of buying a cruiser; they'd probably have won. USS Stark was attacked and almost sunk by merely 2 exocet missiles. What was assumed attack by fighters gaugee and based on intelligence reports was actually a modified private jet. A Boeing 777 can be modified into a bomber. Its internal fuselage can be modified with revolver racks to carry cruise missiles. With ranges over 7,000 nautical miles plane can take off from airbases or civilian runways hundreds miles inland, launch missiles with standoff ranges exceeding 500 miles. Unlike the military, civilian aviation upgrades its engines every few years, military planes are literally left in the dust in terms economy. Modified passenger jets are ideal, as an entire civilian parts distribution and servicing mechanics already exist to fix them. Navies may try subvert airspace from civilian airliners but that just gives away their position. Ships no longer enjoy safety of ports because civilization sprawls up around it. Webcam, cellphones and internet. Navies are outnumbered 100 to 1 by global fishing and commercial shipping fleets. Photos and geotagging means images of ships can be shared in real time. Just look at all subreddits Warship Porn
Truck mounted missiles have been a thing in existence since before our last scuffle with Iran.
Drones are just unmanned small boats, or slower missiles/bombs that we already prepared to defend against.

I have however said, for a long time that modern warships were not properly armed to deal with small boat swarms, USN agreed and the LCS and constellation class and now the FFXA were given weapons for better dealing with small boat swarms, which also conveniently gave them great weapons for dealing with UAV swarms, attack helos and slower missiles.
Russia also learned their ships weren’t properly armed to deal with small boat swarms the hard way.

But USVs and UAVs rising to prominence hasn’t really made any sort of major shift in naval warfare.
 
So trump supporters can't do coherent analysis. Understood. The elephant in the room is much bigger than I expected.



No one here would suggest the USAF buy 8,000 low end F-16 that could suffer significant casualties without a total loss of capacity. Instead we support buying high end F-35 and F-47 with unmanned escorts.

The USN under the democrats was specifically looking for smaller low end solutions that would suffer significant casualties. The USN under Trump would instead use unmanned escorts and keep all it's personnel safe in a high end ship. One solution values the lives of it's citizens greater than the other.

It is total hypocrisy if you support the USAF policy of high end aircraft with unmanned escorts but think it's bad for the Navy. TDS is real.
Trump supporters are the only deranged people, who can seemingly never find anything substantial to criticize him for. It’s so unsafe for the president he needs a ballroom and a new bunker, but somehow it’s safe enough to have a UFC fight on the south lawn of the White House? But back on topic.

Under Biden large and medium USV programs were up and running
Under Obama the sea hunter program occurred, and began testing in 2016.

However these concepts are still in their infancy and untested so trying to build the entire fleet around them would be stupid, and in the mean time the USN needs more small surface combatants.

And you’re now trying to attribute successes in programs started under Obama to trump. Completely typical.

Modern naval warfare data is very sparse, however we know that modern warfare has been shown to be highly lethal, and a lot of high end systems will be lost. Ukraine has been largely holding off a significantly larger military with older less capable systems.

What part of the battleship design we’ve seen so far would make it any better at defending against sea baby style USVs? Based on mk41 VLS and 5” count it’s no more capable of defending itself against UAVs than a tico is. Burkes are not properly armed against USVs either (currently), so what in the world makes you think that this massive high end vessel will not just be swarmed by drones both air and sea, and destroyed at least to the point of a mission kill if not straight up sinking or some where in between?
 
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Seababys or other drones are not a real threat vs bbgx or most other large surface combatants. As you can’t even approach within 1500 miles without a ton of ASBM or hypersonic fired at you. You’ll never be in sea baby range.
 
Seababys or other drones are not a real threat vs bbgx or most other large surface combatants. As you can’t even approach within 1500 miles without a ton of ASBM or hypersonic fired at you. You’ll never be in sea baby range.

Few if any shooting wars will be vs peer adversaries. I'm not saying we don't need to prepare for that war, but odds are good the USN will mostly be fighting against less complex threats employed in large numbers.
 
Compared to Tico, you don't think adding 4x 30mm guns, 2x CUAS launchers, six lasers, another ~80 VLS cells, ~400 crew, lots of hanger and flight deck space, and potentially a railgun will improve it's ability to defend against low end threats? Also keep in mind that the ship has lots of room to add future capabilities as new tech develops.
I’ve only seen 2 mk38s listed for it, and nothing listed for CUAS launchers.
Railgun if it ever happens has pretty much no utility against USVs.
Last VLS count i saw for this ship was like 122 or 128 or something so tico levels of VLS.

400 extra crew is pretty meaningless in this discussion, unless your plan is to put those extra 400 dudes on deck with rifles and shotguns, which still would likely have a negligible result

But yes 4 mk38 mod4s would be better than 2 mk38 mod2s, but not nearly enough to justify a ship this size, of this cost to build, man, and maintain.

Destroyers and frigates should have 4 30mm guns.
This battleship should have at least 6 with at least 1 mk110.
 
Seababys or other drones are not a real threat vs bbgx or most other large surface combatants. As you can’t even approach within 1500 miles without a ton of ASBM or hypersonic fired at you. You’ll never be in sea baby range.
Lmao, we literally have a whole blockade within sea baby range of Cuba, and Iran.

So this ship will never enter the Red Sea, Black Sea, med, Gulf of Mexico, gulf of Oman, the Mediterranean or any other number of locations in the indo-pac com areas?

How will you keep covert USV tenders at bay and at least 1500 miles away if they’re disguised as fishing vessels or cargo ships?

You’re going to launch ASMs at sea baby style drones? Umm…ok…
 
Designing a warship around non-peer adversaries is misguided at best.

A modern ship needs to be able to handle both the asymmetric threats and the top end ballistic and hypersonic threats.

100%. I'm not arguing against designing warships to handle the peer adversary, I'm arguing against ignoring the economics and logistics of using high end weapons to defeat low end threats.

5” suffers the RoF problem. Not high enough for a swarm. Lasers do not show any indication of being operationally deployable yet despite a few peace time test deployments.
Mk38 mod4s are a good place to be for this work, but they need more.
I doubt they’ll be putting phalanx on the BBGX, it’ll probably be RAM, or if they want gun based it would make so much more sense to go with a mk110.

I have not seen anything listing any CUAS systems that will be installed, let alone able to see how effective they are.

Drop the stupid pipe dream railgun, and replace it with either another 5” gun or a fwd mk110

5" wouldn't have a ROF problem if they finally made a guided round capable of one shot one kill vs small boats and OWAs. Hopefully HVP is up to the task.

Looks like they are calling it Counter-UxS now as I imagine it will have munitions for handling both air and surface threats (hellfire, coyote, ect).

I thought I saw something about the new secnav stating the current design has 200 VLS, but I can't find it now.

G-up1ZeaoAA_CxU
 
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The line about the choice between the gun and CPS came from SNA 2026
“I want very much to have CPS in our most capable surface ship, and so we said DDG(X) is where we should do this. But we went and found ourselves in a weird situation where in order to keep an adequate amount of Mark 41 VLS cells, we were going to have to make a choice between a gun weapon system and Conventional Prompt Strike.”

– RADM Derek Trinque, Director of Surface Warfare USN
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...iferate-hypersonic-missiles-across-the-fleet/

There was a considerable amount of discussion in this thread at the time over whether "gun weapon system" referred to a 5" gun or a railgun. That being an either-or wouldn't make much sense with a 5" gun because of the volume, but it could make more sense if they were talking about a 32 MJ railgun with large capacitor banks.
 
What part of the battleship design we’ve seen so far would make it any better at defending against sea baby style USVs? Based on mk41 VLS and 5” count it’s no more capable of defending itself against UAVs than a tico is. Burkes are not properly armed against USVs either (currently), so what in the world makes you think that this massive high end vessel will not just be swarmed by drones both air and sea, and destroyed at least to the point of a mission kill if not straight up sinking or some where in between?
No western warship has ever been hit by a USV. They are not a threat in the open ocean. The ships radar will detect them 10+ nm away. USV have a top speed of 40 knots. Do the maths. That is more than 15 minutes until impact. This is slow motion which makes it impossible to be swarmed.

If the USV has a rocket launcher the battleship will have a laser like the Israel Iron beam that has already intercepted hundreds of Hezbollah rockets.

Small electric FPV aerial drones don't have the range to reach the ship. Petrol power drones again will be vulnerable to the laser. The enemy will be losing a $100k drone to a $10 laser shot.

The biggest threat is Unmanned Underwater Vehicles. The battleship will have multiple UUV escorts as protection. These significantly increase the ships drag and reduce the range of a ship making nuclear propulsion essential. Lockheed Martin's Lamprey is just one example we have much bigger ones under development. They hitchhike on host ships or submarines and uses built-in hydrogenerators to harvest energy from the passing water flow to recharge its batteries.
 
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Lmao, we literally have a whole blockade within sea baby range of Cuba, and Iran.

So this ship will never enter the Red Sea, Black Sea, med, Gulf of Mexico, gulf of Oman, the Mediterranean or any other number of locations in the indo-pac com areas?

How will you keep covert USV tenders at bay and at least 1500 miles away if they’re disguised as fishing vessels or cargo ships?

You’re going to launch ASMs at sea baby style drones? Umm…ok…
You wouldn't use the BBGX to blockade them. If 40 years down the line they have China-esque capabilites you wouldn't be want to be close enough to them to be engaged by seababys etiher way.

Again drone/USV suscide ships are slow and easily detected by radar/EO systems and engaged with guided rounds or lasers.

The shooters had republican parents and their parents registered them as a teenager. But their social medias show they are anti-trumps, anti-republican. 2/4 attended democrat rallies.

But yes the media has tried to mislead you into saying they are registered republican.
Your parents can't register you as a republican as a minor. You need to be old enough to vote and registering someone else without their permission is illegal
 
You literally quoted my post where I said "Israel Iron beam that has already intercepted hundreds of Hezbollah rockets"

Israel even sent Ironbeam to UAE
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israe...intercept-iranian-missiles-and-drones-report/


The shooters had republican parents and their parents registered them as a teenager. But their social medias show they are anti-trumps, anti-republican. 2/4 attended democrat rallies.

But yes the media has tried to mislead you into saying they are registered republican.
Ahh yes an article from a propaganda page.

Let’s see the videos of them actually being used and zapping drones.
 
Tell that to Russia.

Lasers? What lasers? We have no ships actively equipped and deploying with lasers.
We have no guided gun rounds.

Your whole argument is based on a fantasy world.
You mean the country with a land locked incompetent fleet and near useless sensors that also can't even dream of enforcing a blockade.

Both of those exist and have been combat tested. They just need to be procured and put on a ship. Luckily lasers have been repeatily stated to be going on any new high end surface combatant, and we are actively developing HVP (however bad but way more than sufficient for sea babys) for the 5 inch guns.
 
You mean the country with a land locked incompetent fleet and near useless sensors that also can't even dream of enforcing a blockade.

Both of those exist and have been combat tested. They just need to be procured and put on a ship. Luckily lasers have been repeatily stated to be going on any new high end surface combatant, and we are actively developing HVP (however bad but way more than sufficient for sea babys) for the 5 inch guns.
Yeah their fleet is trapped because USVs are a threat…that’s kind of the whole point…you can make up whatever excuses you want if it makes you feel better though.
 
Yeah their fleet is trapped because USVs are a threat…that’s kind of the whole point…you can make up whatever excuses you want if it makes you feel better though.
No... their fleet is trapped because Turkey won't let them out of the Black Sea which is at most 500 miles away from Ukranian controlled coastline. Becuase of this they are in range. A future USN would never be in range, as they would just keep far enough away and launch aircraft at low tier opponents or long range 1500+ mile missiles at China.
 
The U.S. has planned and canceled plans over and over again.
Isn't what the U.S. needs a proven track record, not performance?
 
The changing plans were all due to technology changing so rapidly. Stealth composite ships, fancy rocket guns, IEP propulsion, nuclear regaining popularity, lasers working in combat, rail guns in testing and unmanned escorts.

Everything is nearing maturity so the obvious solution then becomes the traditional high/low mix. Two ship classes in continuous production so that there is reasonably economy of scale. Having 4+ ship sizes will result in lower production runs and higher unit prices. Overall reduction in capability.

The high end ship has to be able to do everything imaginable so it will be extremely expensive. It has to be nuclear and very large.

The low end ship has to be cheap to be purchased in high quantity. It still needs to be able to operate alone in low/medium threat environments. Putting a good sonar, AESA radar and some VLS cells on a long range coast guard cutter sounds perfect to me.

I think a large high end 35,000 ton nuclear warship and a 5,000 ton all purpose frigate make the perfect high/low mix.
What? Rail guns, lasers, and unmanned escorts aren’t even viable technology today let alone 15+ years ago…and have nothing to do with our fucked up ship designing and building capabilities.

BBGX and FFX will still be reliant of supply ships and/or foreign ports to feed the sailors onboard them regardless of how far they can steam without refueling…
 
Take the South China sea operating from Guam. This is a 2,000nm transit to the patrol area or nearly 4,000nm both ways. The Zumwalt and Arleigh-Burke with their short 4,500nm range can then only spend a few days in the patrol area. The LCS ships can't even make it to the patrol area and back to Guam.
If you can anywhere near "patrol" the south China sea, the war is over and China lost. If China intends to conduct an amphib operation on Taiwan it'd need air and naval superiority and it'd involve concentration and decisive battle and it'd be a short affair.

Alternatively, China could fail at obtaining superiority and have to stall the war with sea denial. In that scenario the main fight is escorting resupply into Taiwan, which is also a short and sharp fight similar to Malta island battles.

Surface naval warfare are very fast affairs, and especially true with missiles that can all be launched in minutes, and with modern ranges combat would start even east of guam.
 
Too short range. Let's do a coherant analysis.

Zumwalt can only travel 4,500nm at 20 knots.
The LCS ships can only travel 3,500nm at 18 knots. They require a huge fleet of support ships and hundreds of billions given to foreign countries to maintain access to foreign ports for refueling.

The new plan has a high end warship with unlimited nuclear range and the low end FF(X) ship has a massive 12,000 nm range. Even the low end ship can travel anywhere in the world without using foreign ports. Hands down this is the best option.

The FF(X) is the money saving ship that allows the funding to go to the high end ship. That huge range means it can work independently to supply ships which is a huge cost saving.

Take the South China sea operating from Guam. This is a 2,000nm transit to the patrol area or nearly 4,000nm both ways. The Zumwalt and Arleigh-Burke with their short 4,500nm range can then only spend a few days in the patrol area. The LCS ships can't even make it to the patrol area and back to Guam.

The FF(X) with it's 12,000nm range has massive 8,000nm range remaining to use in the patrol area. Three Arleigh-Burkes destroyers would need to rotate in and out to provide the same patrol coverage/endurance as a single FF(X). This would be 10 times the cost for the same job. If 90% of these patrols only need ESSM and a gun then FF(X) will save hundreds of billions over the life of the fleet. This money goes towards the Trump class. It can be ridiculous expensive that's usually how a high/low .mix works.
Hi,

I believe that they 12,000nm range given for the NSC/FF(X) is actually at a fairly low cruise speed (I think I may have at one time heard something like 11-12 kts)*, and that at more typical cruise speeds it is actually much lower.

For reference, here are some graphs (for a different ship) that shows how dramatically range can vary with cruise speed. Specifically, for this ship it shows that while it can attain a range of about 7800nm @ 14kts, it would likely achieve a range of about 4300nm @ 20kts, and vice versa.

[Edit]
Per the "NATIONAL SECURITY CUTTER Enhanced Oversight Needed to Ensure Problems Discovered during Testing and Operations Are Addressed" 674924.pdf the 12,000nm range is at an average speed of 12kts.[/Edit] https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-16-148
CPCX-Range.jpg


CPCX-Range2.jpg
 
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If you can anywhere near "patrol" the south China sea, the war is over and China lost. If China intends to conduct an amphib operation on Taiwan it'd need air and naval superiority and it'd involve concentration and decisive battle and it'd be a short affair.

Alternatively, China could fail at obtaining superiority and have to stall the war with sea denial. In that scenario the main fight is escorting resupply into Taiwan, which is also a short and sharp fight similar to Malta island battles.

Surface naval warfare are very fast affairs, and especially true with missiles that can all be launched in minutes, and with modern ranges combat would start even east of guam.
Well considering the war would likely start after China launches its invasion of Taiwan they would definitely have naval superiority when the invasion happens and would likely gain air superiority fairly quickly, and it would take at least a week for the US to respond to the conflict zone allowing the PLAN to gain positional advantage.
 
Well considering the war would likely start after China launches its invasion of Taiwan they would definitely have naval superiority when the invasion happens and would likely gain air superiority fairly quickly, and it would take at least a week for the US to respond to the conflict zone allowing the PLAN to gain positional advantage.
USAF can start the shooting within hours. If it were weeks for the navy, the battle would be over!

Why even bother with boats at this point~
 
USAF can start the shooting within hours. If it were weeks for the navy, the battle would be over!

Why even bother with boats at this point~
USAF might be able to theoretically get bombers in theater in hours, but is the plan to suicide bombers into the theater hoping to hit some important targets? That sounds extremely wasteful.
Even using midair refueling to get fighters in theater, how many can really be brought to the fight in that situation? I really doubt it would be enough to be competitive with the sheer numbers they’d be dealing with.

Edit
And that’s all assuming China didn’t fire opening salvos into the US airbases in the region destroying aircraft and runways
 
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Based on the experience of the First World War and the Russia-Ukraine War, the probability that a large-scale conflict in East Asia would end within two months is very low.

A more likely but more dangerous scenario is this: a limited nuclear exchange occurs in the first two months of the war, and the air-sea standoff continues for more than one year. Not only would USAF airfields in East Asia and USN ports in East Asia no longer be safe; even ports and airfields on the West Coast cannot be assumed to be safe.

BBGN(X) would be equipped with 24 IR-CPS, each carrying one W76 warhead, and 96 SLCM-N. This is roughly the nuclear warhead load of an SSBN. It would have four shafts and backup electric propulsion, enough reserve crew, living space, food storage space, a sufficiently large machine shop, and two hangars large enough to accommodate two MV-22s. Through the MV-22s, the ship could rotate crew and receive urgently needed supplies. During a crisis, this ship could cruise at sea for more than one year without needing to return to port.

An SSBN, by contrast, can only cruise underwater for at most three months before it has to return to the Bremerton anchorage, unless the USN chooses to rotate crews at sea. But SSBNs also require maintenance.
 
A "growth capability" that forced the removal of the gun in a 15,000ton ship.
You seriously believe that? Christ, I've got a bridge to sell you
That's not a growth capability.
You evidently don't understand. To add hypersonic weapons was a "we'd like to do this down the track", not a dealbreaker. The priority was/should still be pushing multirole combatants to fleet as soon the USN will begin to lose 3-5 Arleigh Burkes a year while lacking the capacity to replace them 1:1.
But 4x DPM/APM tubes do take up roughly the same volume as gun turret plus magazine. See the Zumwalts.
You're seriously comparing AGS to a 5in Mk 45??? Ridiculous
Lasers do not show any indication of being operationally deployable yet despite a few peace time test deployments.
Very, very incorrect, but hey what's new in this place.
Lasers are currently largely constrained only by the amount of power ships can dedicate to them. Indeed lasers are currently operational aboard a few vessels
We have no guided gun rounds.
The US does have ships with guided gun rounds.

Keep going, yall are coming out looking like absolute paragons of naval knowledge right now
 
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Topic locked. I don't read Naval topics, its not my thing. It seems some posters with little apparent knowledge are pontificating on subjects they know little about. I know its fashionable now to accept everyone's opinions are equally valid, but some posters could profitably do more reading and less posting until they know more.

There are also some extremely rude posts here. No matter the situation,this is never acceptable.

I invite everyone to read the Conduct section of the rules.

I suggest Naval moderator @Hood use topic bans and posting bans where necessary for Naval topics in the Military section. He has been given moderator rights here.
 
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I am re-opening this thread after a monumental clean-up of the 26 pages that yielded only 20 posts of actual news about the BBG(X) and a rambling set of discussions of everything from railguns, Kirov-class reactors, China war scenarios, fleet sizes, CPS and missiles, hypersonic strikes and ship resupply.
The clean up has involved removing some off-topic posts, some have been moved to more relevant threads. My advice would be to avoid speculation in the absence of real news and use a little patience.

As Overscan says, rude posts and personal insults are not acceptable. While nobody can be an expert on everything and spouting uninformed speculation is not helpful or useful, everyone should be courteous towards each other. Offending posts have been edited or deleted. I've have not issued topic bans at this time but the members involved will be watched and are on a short-string. Any reoffending will result in a topic ban.

This thread should be used for questions, commentary and technical discussion regarding BBG(X). This is not an invitation to wishlist your fantasy ship or fleet or wargame your fantasy conflict scenario, there are other forum sections for that.

All news items should be posted here (sans commentary): https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/bbg-x-us-next-generation-battleship-news-only.51739/
 
Seababys or other drones are not a real threat vs bbgx or most other large surface combatants. As you can’t even approach within 1500 miles without a ton of ASBM or hypersonic fired at you. You’ll never be in sea baby range.
That assumes you'll always have 1500 miles of sea-room to play with. Which means never going anywhere interesting on the SLOCs. It also assumes hypersonics with an anti-ship role, which isn't the case with CPS. And the utility of hypersonics and ASBMs vs submarine targets is yet to be demonstrated. It's as easy to launch a Seababy from a deck-canister on a sub as from anything else and it doesn't even need to surface to deploy it. Seababy pops to the surface, dials home, receives targeting and off she goes.

Note the strike on the Arctic Metagaz for evidence that you don't have to be anywhere near your opponent's territory for the Seababy threat to find you. Note also the Operation Spiderweb strikes on Russian bomber bases for drones being deployed 4,300km from home territory - which is a perfect model for what you could do with container-launched drones from an unsuspecting merchant ship.
 
Vs a radar target with a height above water of about a metre? (Or less, easy to run decks awash).
The battleship radar will be 30 metres above the waterline. It can detect a target with a 1 metre height from 10 nm away.

Some USVs.
Most USVs. Some can do between 40-50 knots. This means the battleship still has 10+ minutes from detecting the enemy before it hits. That's enough time for the helicopter crew to make a coffee, walk to the helicopter, takeoff and shoot it with machine gun.

This is also why the battleship will have 700 crew. It can maintain high alert without crew burnout. This is partly why the Arleigh-Burke has a fairly large crew for a destroyer. It can maintain a high operational tempo while still giving the crew enough rest.
 
Based on the experience of the First World War and the Russia-Ukraine War, the probability that a large-scale conflict in East Asia would end within two months is very low.

A more likely but more dangerous scenario is this: a limited nuclear exchange occurs in the first two months of the war, and the air-sea standoff continues for more than one year. Not only would USAF airfields in East Asia and USN ports in East Asia no longer be safe; even ports and airfields on the West Coast cannot be assumed to be safe.

BBGN(X) would be equipped with 24 IR-CPS, each carrying one W76 warhead, and 96 SLCM-N. This is roughly the nuclear warhead load of an SSBN. It would have four shafts and backup electric propulsion, enough reserve crew, living space, food storage space, a sufficiently large machine shop, and two hangars large enough to accommodate two MV-22s. Through the MV-22s, the ship could rotate crew and receive urgently needed supplies. During a crisis, this ship could cruise at sea for more than one year without needing to return to port.

An SSBN, by contrast, can only cruise underwater for at most three months before it has to return to the Bremerton anchorage, unless the USN chooses to rotate crews at sea. But SSBNs also require maintenance.
We need to be very careful about taking too many or the wrong lessons from the Ukraine war.
Ukraine started the war with almost 0 offensive capability.
Then when offensive western weapons they were limited in how they could use them.

Such problems wouldn’t exist for the West.

I think something more like what we’ve seen with Iran is what can be expected however. Both sides throwing massive numbers of munitions at each other for a month or two and then both sides settling into a stalemate for an unknowably long time.
 
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