BAe Tempest and other pre-GCAP studies

[Hood]

The glory days of British aviation are long gone, and so is the British Empire, but some forum members still don't want to see that. Tempest lost its future as soon as Boris took the UK out of the EU.

Aye the glory days of British aviation are long over.

But it would be wrong to right off BAE Systems as a nobody - its one of (if not the) biggest defence contractors in Europe, its US subsidiary BAE Systems Inc. is a top ten supplier to the US DoD (where the core income/profit is), in Sweden it owns what was Hägglunds and Bofors and in April this year set up BAE Systems Japan.

Tempest is its last throw of the military aviation field which is a very small part of its overall portfolio, but it does make 15% of every F-35 and its US subsidiary supplies its EW system (Leonardo are building 1,200 wing boxes among other avionics involvement and Japanese companies manufacture several other components).
True the UK government via the MOD has to stump up the cash, probably at least a third of the entire Tempest programme if not more - but then it forked out at least £9.1 billion to buy its Tier 1 F-35 share and 48 aircraft.

The tricky part is going to be how BAE, Leonardo, Mitsubishi and IHI and associated companies and subsidiaries can convince the USA that no transfer of US technology has gone into Tempest.


Just an historical note, Tempest as a potential multinational project dates from around 2017 with the model being touted around airshows in 2018 - both being post-referendum. Tempest in its current form was always a post-Brexit project.
Who knows what the future of the UK will be - in a sense its immaterial.
Will future governments continue to fund Tempest? Yes, if they can, because they would not want to lose that important manufacturing capability - 21 companies and 21,000 people working on F-35 alone. But if Tempest loses a partner I can't see how it would survive (without a wildcard like Saudi-Qatar bankrolling it).

As to hubris and bluster - well judging by that slightly unhinged opinion piece Tomcat posted on the SCAF thread Franco-German relations are not exactly rosy (the reader's comments to that piece are illuminating, not that different from some of the knuckle-dragger comments you get on British articles).

 

[Forest Green]

I think there are a few assumptions in the scenario above

Wow, only a few?

 

[aonestudio]

UK to build new stealth fighter jet that can dodge radar with Japan & Italy

BRITAIN will build a new stealth fighter plane with Japan and Italy by 2035, The Sun can reveal. The sixth-generation Tempest jet would be able to fly both piloted and unmanned while armed with hyp…

www.thesun.co.uk

 

[Dagger]

I think there are a few assumptions in the scenario above (as it relates to the Tempest program) .........................

No assumptions, merely stating the obvious.

Aye the glory days of British aviation are long over.

But it would be wrong to right off BAE Systems as a nobody .................

I never said that BAE is a nobody, but if it were easy to develop a stealth fighter on their own they would already have done that at the time of the F-22, yet they kept working on the non-stealth Typhoon/Eurofighter.

It's ironic that 80 years ago the Hawker Typhoon had disappointing performance and the Hawker Tempest was designed to be what the Typhoon should have been, but really came to late, and now Britain again wants to develop a Tempest to replace a Typhoon, but again too late.

There simply is no room for two fighter projects in Europe.
Maybe not even room for one, as most European nations already ordered F-35s which they are not going to replace them already 15 years from now.
Sweden will also buy F-35s because otherwise they will look like a paria. Always stayed neutral and now they act like a toddler that is afraid of the neighbour's dog and tries to hide under mother's skirt?
There is a price to pay for becoming a NATO member and part of that will be: buying the most modern fighter available to equip at least two squadrons.

The only fighter project that survives will be the European SCAF, not the English Tempest.

 

[Forest Green]

I never said that BAE is a nobody, but if it were easy to develop a stealth fighter on their own they would already have done that at the time of the F-22, yet they kept working on the non-stealth Typhoon/Eurofighter.

You could say that for all the European defence companies working on the Typhoon, and Dassault working on the Rafale.

The only fighter project that survives will be the European SCAF, not the English Tempest.

Based on your own logic, neither will survive.

 

[zen]

Fighty McFightface?

The JUIS Fighter?

 

[zen]

One is starting to feel political antenii twitching at certain posts here.

 

[Rhinocrates]

t if it were easy to develop a stealth fighter on their own they would already have done that at the time of the F-22, yet they kept working on the non-stealth Typhoon/Eurofighter.

It's governments that set performance criteria and budgets for production, not contractors. Of course the major companies had stealth research and development programmes under way - Replica, Lampyridae etc. - but they weren't going to proceed to production until governments were prepared to request and fund them.

Meanwhile, Typhoon has continued to be a lucrative earner, selling to companies that were forbidden to buy the F-22. Why kill a goose that lays golden eggs?

Maybe not even room for one, as most European nations already ordered F-35s which they are not going to replace them already 15 years from now.

Stealth is an attribute not a category. The F-35 is a strike fighter, quite different from an air superiority type. Even if Typhoon and Tempest are multirole, range, speed, altitude, sensor, and payload requirements make them fundamentally different from a tactical strike aircraft - and such air superiority aircraft are necessary to round out a credible air force if you can afford it (which many can't).

Sweden will also buy F-35s because otherwise they will look like a paria. Always stayed neutral and now they act like a toddler that is afraid of the neighbour's dog and tries to hide under mother's skirt?

Is that tone really necessary? I seem to recall there is a war happening somewhere. Putin has made it clear that he holds grudges that go back centuries to when Sweden was an enemy. The Cold War made neutrality arguably a sensible option for Sweden and Finland, but Russian revanchism now alters the equation.

Addendum: The RAF of course operated the GR4 Tornado (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado#Tornado_IDS), a very capable multi-role aircraft, but also found it necessary to acquire the air defence variant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado_ADV). The F-35 succeeds the Tornado IDS and Harrier/Sea Harrier, Typhoon succeeded the Tornado ADV, but Tempest is now needed to follow Typhoon as it ages and now Japan sees a need for it too in response to China.

 

[Ares]

Japan, the United Kingdom, and Italy have decided to jointly develop a common aircraft for the next-generation fighter of the Air Self-Defense Force and the Royal Air Force. It aims to deploy around 2035. A joint statement is expected to be released on the 9th.

It is said that it was possible to secure the degree of freedom of upgrade that the Japanese side valued by overseeing the overall design of the aircraft and system development.

It plans to acquire about 300 units in three countries, and aims to export finished products overseas. In Japan, the 'three principles for transferring defense equipment and operating guidelines have become a stepping stone for export, and the government and the ruling party are negotiating to reexamine them.

日英の次期戦闘機、イタリア加えた３か国で機体開発…三菱重工など主体

【読売新聞】　航空自衛隊と英空軍の次期戦闘機について、日本と英国、イタリアの３か国が共通機体を共同開発する方針を固めた。２０３５年頃の配備を目指す。９日に共同声明を発表する見通しだ。 日本は、Ｆ２戦闘機の退役が始まる３０年代半ばに後

www.yomiuri.co.jp

 

[FighterJock]

Japan, the United Kingdom, and Italy have decided to jointly develop a common aircraft for the next-generation fighter of the Air Self-Defense Force and the Royal Air Force. It aims to deploy around 2035. A joint statement is expected to be released on the 9th.

It is said that it was possible to secure the degree of freedom of upgrade that the Japanese side valued by overseeing the overall design of the aircraft and system development.

It plans to acquire about 300 units in three countries, and aims to export finished products overseas. In Japan, the 'three principles for transferring defense equipment and operating guidelines have become a stepping stone for export, and the government and the ruling party are negotiating to reexamine them.

日英の次期戦闘機、イタリア加えた３か国で機体開発…三菱重工など主体

【読売新聞】　航空自衛隊と英空軍の次期戦闘機について、日本と英国、イタリアの３か国が共通機体を共同開発する方針を固めた。２０３５年頃の配備を目指す。９日に共同声明を発表する見通しだ。 日本は、Ｆ２戦闘機の退役が始まる３０年代半ばに後

www.yomiuri.co.jp

Good news for GCAP, but why only 300 units for each user?

 

[Ares]

Japan, the United Kingdom, and Italy have decided to jointly develop a common aircraft for the next-generation fighter of the Air Self-Defense Force and the Royal Air Force. It aims to deploy around 2035. A joint statement is expected to be released on the 9th.

It is said that it was possible to secure the degree of freedom of upgrade that the Japanese side valued by overseeing the overall design of the aircraft and system development.

It plans to acquire about 300 units in three countries, and aims to export finished products overseas. In Japan, the 'three principles for transferring defense equipment and operating guidelines have become a stepping stone for export, and the government and the ruling party are negotiating to reexamine them.

日英の次期戦闘機、イタリア加えた３か国で機体開発…三菱重工など主体

【読売新聞】　航空自衛隊と英空軍の次期戦闘機について、日本と英国、イタリアの３か国が共通機体を共同開発する方針を固めた。２０３５年頃の配備を目指す。９日に共同声明を発表する見通しだ。 日本は、Ｆ２戦闘機の退役が始まる３０年代半ばに後

www.yomiuri.co.jp

Good news for GCAP, but why only 300 units for each user?

I guess that'd be the initial plan. JASDF will definitely acquire an additional 100 units to replace the F-15MJs.

 

[zen]

300 is a roughly similar figure to early Eurofighters required for the RAF.....

 

[Hood]

Well it says "300 units in three countries" which would indicate a total production run of 300 for all three nations combined.

Perhaps split something like 120 Japan/120 UK/ 60 Italy? That would seem fairly logical, the RAF only has 150 Typhoons, Italy 96 and Japan has 155 F-15Js. Allowing for the inevitable reduction in numbers due to the higher price tag and force reductions and the fact that all three air forces have F-35s that seems a reasonable figure.

(Theoretical F-35 ratios by Tempest IOC should be 147 Japan, 74-138 UK, 75 Italy (+15 Navy))

 

[FighterJock]

So the UK would only be getting 120 GCAPs compared to 150 Typhoons? I take it the GCAP will be much more expensive than the Typhoon, unless the price comes down once it starts to get exported.

 

[uk 75]

The future of any new generation combat aircraft must depend on what Russia and China are able to develop and deploy in the next decade.
This would now seem to mean China since it is hard to see Russia doing so.
This should help Tempest as Japan will be keen to have a top of the range replacement for its F15s. Italy works well with Japan they both have the Boeing 767 AWACS and both manufacture precision industrial machinery.
Japan has long experience of coping with Britain as an awkward partner for industrial projects. But from the constitutional monarchy to a powerful navy the two countries have much in common.
But all three are practical countries and a decent US competitor at the right price could kill Tempest.

 

[Dagger]

..... The F-35 is a strike fighter, quite different from an air superiority type. .........

Sweden will also buy F-35s because otherwise they will look like a paria. Always stayed neutral and now they act like a toddler that is afraid of the neighbour's dog and tries to hide under mother's skirt?

Is that tone really necessary? I seem to recall there is a war happening somewhere. Putin has made it clear that he holds grudges that go back centuries to when Sweden was an enemy. The Cold War made neutrality arguably a sensible option for Sweden and Finland, but Russian revanchism now alters the equation.

Sweden has always been opportunistic. Ask Norwegian elders how they think about the Swedish "neutrality" during WW2. Now they seem to think they can get a free ride within NATO, just join, sit back, and profit from the protection by other nations, free of charge.

F-35 is multi-role. I would rather rely on an F-35 for air superiority than a Typhoon or Tornado or Gripen or Rafale.

 

[Rhinocrates]

Sweden has always been opportunistic.

All governments are, and for the sake of their mandates, they should be.

Ask Norwegian elders how they think about the Swedish "neutrality" during WW2. Now they seem to think they can get a free ride within NATO, just join, sit back, and profit from the protection by other nations, free of charge.

We're not refighting WWII, we're concerned with someone still bearing a grudge for these wars:

List of wars between Russia and Sweden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I was not aware that NATO has subscription fees but gives waivers or that Sweden and Finland have no armed forces or weapons manufacturers of their own. I was also under the delusion that the NATO treaty had something called 'Article 5,' meaning that is, say, Türkiye was attacked, Sweden and Finland would be obligated to come to its aid.

F-35 is multi-role. I would rather rely on an F-35 for air superiority than a Typhoon or Tornado or Gripen or Rafale.

The USAF disagrees with you about the use of strike-optimised jack-of-all-trades aircraft for air superiority. Now the RAF, other European air forces, and Japan have the same opinion, which is why they're aiming to keep the class of the Typhoon type but realise that those particular planes are ageing. They're not ordering more F-35s to succeed them. I suspect that their strategic analysis is not entirely incompetent.

 

[aonestudio]

Move over, Tempest: Japan pact takes UK-Italy fighter plan ‘global’

The Global Combat Air Programme envisions fielding a 6th-generation fighter aircraft by 2035, merging the Europeans' work on Tempest and Japan's F-X plans.

www.defensenews.com

UK, Italy and Japan team up for new fighter jet

The countries enter a joint venture to design and build the next generation of fighter aircraft.

www.bbc.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1601064213606457344

View: https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1601064213606457344

 

[Ares]

JOINT LEADERS’ STATEMENT

As leaders of Japan, Italy and the UK, we are committed to upholding the rules-based, free and open international order, which is more important than ever at a time when these principles are contested, and threats and aggression are increasing. Since defending our democracy, economy and security, and protecting regional stability, are ever more important, we need strong defence and security partnerships, underpinned and reinforced by a credible deterrent capability.

Our three nations have longstanding, close relationships based on the shared values of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Today, we are taking the next step in our deepening trilateral partnership. We are announcing the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) – an ambitious endeavour to develop a next-generation fighter aircraft by 2035.

Through the GCAP, we will build on our longstanding defence relationships. The GCAP will accelerate our advanced military capability and technological advantage. It will deepen our defence co-operation, science and technology collaboration, integrated supply chains, and further strengthen our defence industrial base.

This programme will deliver wider economic and industrial benefits, supporting jobs and livelihoods across Japan, Italy and the UK. It will attract investment in research and development into digital design and advanced manufacture processes. It will provide opportunities for our next generation of highly skilled engineers and technicians. By working together in a spirit of equal partnership, we are sharing the costs and the benefits of this investment in our people and technologies.

Importantly, the programme will support the sovereign capability of all three countries to design, deliver and upgrade cutting-edge combat air capabilities, well into the future. This programme has been designed with our Allies and partners at its very heart. Future interoperability with the United States, with NATO and with our partners across Europe, the Indo-Pacific and globally – is reflected in the name we have chosen for our programme. This concept will be at the centre of its development. We share ambition for this aircraft to be the centrepiece of a wider combat air system that will function across multiple domains.

Our hope is that the Global Combat Air Programme, and through it our capability partnership, will be a cornerstone of global security, stability and prosperity in the coming decades.

Joint Leaders' Statement: UK-Italy-Japan: 9 December 2022

A joint statement from the Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom, Italy and Japan.

www.gov.uk

Dichiarazione Congiunta GCAP (Global Combat Air Programme)

Come Capi di Governo di Italia, Giappone e Regno Unito, siamo impegnati a sostenere l'ordine internazionale libero e aperto basato sulle regole, più importante che mai in un momento in cui questi principi vengono contestati e in cui crescono minacce ed aggressioni. Poiché la difesa della nostra...

www.governo.it

https://www.mod.go.jp/en/article/2022/12/9f3717bac3e9bca986f2e80ba73f7822065a9f2b.html

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Good news for GCAP, but why only 300 units for each user?

That's 300 in total for those three countries, not each. Eventually the number will grow since there are future demands within those countries that are not represented in that "300" figure (eg: Japan will need to replace F-15JSI in the future and they will most certainly do so with F-X).

Perhaps split something like 120 Japan/120 UK/ 60 Italy?

JASDF's current demand accounts for the replacement of around 90 F-2 fighters with 90 F-X. Though like I've said that will not be the end of their procurement.

 

[FighterJock]

Good news for GCAP, but why only 300 units for each user?

That's 300 in total for those three countries, not each. Eventually the number will grow since there are future demands within those countries that are not represented in that "300" figure (eg: Japan will need to replace F-15JSI in the future and they will most certainly do so with F-X).

Perhaps split something like 120 Japan/120 UK/ 60 Italy?

JASDF's current demand accounts for the replacement of around 90 F-2 fighters with 90 F-X. Though like I've said that will not be the end of their procurement.

Thanks for the info Maro.Kyo. It will be interesting in the long run to see just how many GCAPs will be ordered.

 

[timmymagic]

Has to be said but this is a bit of a triumph for British diplomacy and BAE who have put in the hard yards over many years, they had to do the same with Meteor.

If only they could have given the land domain the same focus over the last 30 years...

 

[Ares]

Has to be said but this is a bit of a triumph for British diplomacy and BAE who have put in the hard yards over many years, they had to do the same with Meteor.

If only they could have given the land domain the same focus over the last 30 years...

According to one of the Asahi Shimbun(Japan's 2nd largest newspaper organization) journalists, GCAP is actually the legacy of the former PM Boris Johnson.

It is said that Mr. Johnson had been enthusiastic about merging the future fighter programme with Japan even after Lockheed Martin was selected as the F-X partner for once.

After Lockheed Martin insisted that the F-X should be an unmanned aerial vehicle and sensitive technology-sharing negotiations with the US government also broke down, Japan's Ministry of Defense and Finance reviewed the UK's proposal seriously, which led to GCAP.

 

[Flyaway]

Did people notice the statement in there between Japan & the US over unmanned systems to work alongside this aircraft.

https://www.mod.go.jp/en/images/20221209a.pdf

 

[FighterJock]

Did people notice the statement in there between Japan & the US over unmanned systems to work alongside this aircraft.

https://www.mod.go.jp/en/images/20221209a.pdf

Looks like GCAP is going to be a system of systems instead of just one aircraft as I originally thought, interesting.

 

[alertken]

Just ponder for a moment the responsibilities of these elected Ministers trying to do the right thing...for IOC 2035. £Bns.

dagger #831 doubting HMG's "past attitude to" UK Aero. Others: "glory days are gone". There were no glory days...unless you measure by business profit performance, in which case today and recently are glorious.

It was clear to me that EF2000 should have been cancelled when we signed Agreements with Yeltsin's Russia, 1992, that we ceased mutual AW targeting. Aren't we all glad I was not the Minister?

uk75 840 makes 2 key points: F-22 export what If. Surely UK would have done then what he alludes to as The experience of working with the German government on Typhoon? Through Party changes of political fortune FRG was wondering whether £Bns of Typhoon were truly necessary. If US Govt had offered UK Tier 1 status on F-22, I submit...Italy/Spain on Rafale, FRG on nothing.

If I were today's Min. of Defence being lobbied to accelerate my 48 and increase to (70? 138?) F-35s, and to explore loyal wingmen and everything-Cyber, while dissing it all as obsolete from 2035 so GCAP, please...I might need a brisk power nap.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Looks like GCAP is going to be a system of systems instead of just one aircraft as I originally thought, interesting.

There might be some thought into making it such, not sure if it would succeed in the long term though.

 

[timmymagic]

Looks like GCAP is going to be a system of systems instead of just one aircraft as I originally thought, interesting.

The UK is looking at that side of things for its own use under the FCAS programme. GCAP appears to be the manned combat aircraft only. Presumably Italy will continue in FCAS (or have its own programme for some aspects),

 

[Hood]

The wider system seems to have gone very quiet since Project Mosquito was axed though.
In one sense a pure Tempest FCAS makes little sense, it would ideally be grafted onto F-35 too.
The sceptic in me doubts BAE would have the resources to tackle their part of Tempest and a UCAV at the same time to the same timeframe - which makes the cancellation of Mosquito all the more puzzling because it was not BAE and therefore gave some broader base to the industry.

Aren't we all glad I was not the Minister?

Yes because likely as not BAE Systems sells up its entire airframe manufacturing assets in 2010 (post Nimrod debacle).

You do make a good point about F-35 numbers (which the shadow defence secretary has also mentioned). It seems reasonably certain that we will purchase up to 74 (why pay £9 billion to be a Tier 1 nation if you have no desire to buy the damn thing?). 138 feels like a fantasy - why would the RAF/FAA need 138 V/STOL jets given we only have two carriers? Swapping Bs for As seems very unlikely to avoid a clash with Tempest. Would it be a stretch to say by 2045-50 the F-35 fleet might be almost entirely CSG focused?

 

[Dagger]

Sweden has always been opportunistic.

All governments are, and for the sake of their mandates, they should be.

Ask Norwegian elders how they think about the Swedish "neutrality" during WW2. Now they seem to think they can get a free ride within NATO, just join, sit back, and profit from the protection by other nations, free of charge.

We're not refighting WWII, we're concerned with someone still bearing a grudge for these wars:

List of wars between Russia and Sweden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I was not aware that NATO has subscription fees but gives waivers or that Sweden and Finland have no armed forces or weapons manufacturers of their own. I was also under the delusion that the NATO treaty had something called 'Article 5,' meaning that is, say, Türkiye was attacked, Sweden and Finland would be obligated to come to its aid.

F-35 is multi-role. I would rather rely on an F-35 for air superiority than a Typhoon or Tornado or Gripen or Rafale.

The USAF disagrees with you about the use of strike-optimised jack-of-all-trades aircraft for air superiority. Now the RAF, other European air forces, and Japan have the same opinion, which is why they're aiming to keep the class of the Typhoon type but realise that those particular planes are ageing. They're not ordering more F-35s to succeed them. I suspect that their strategic analysis is not entirely incompetent.

I was referring to Swedens 'opportunistic' attitude when it comes to their past "neutrality".
During WW2 they pretended to be neutral but actually collaborated with Germany.
During the cold war they were neutral but assumed that NATO would come to their rescue anyway.
Zelensky thought the same when already before the war he imposed laws that discriminated the Russian speaking minority. But he was wrong, NATO did not send armed forces but merely weapons.
That was a wake-up call for Sweden who now want to join NATO to benefit from 'Article 5', not so much to come to the aid of other NATO members, and especially not Türkiye who tried to block Sweden from joining NATO.
I call Sweden's behavior of the past 85 years 'opportunistic' but I suppose it could also be called 'smart'.

Through the centuries there have been many many many wars in Europe. If all countries would hold still a grudge against each other because of that there could not be a NATO or an EU or a Schengen treaty. Only countries with a dissatisfied Russian speaking minority are at risk from Russia.

The F-35 is not as good as F-22 when it comes to air superiority, but as a 5th generation stealth fighter it would have no trouble shooting down a 4.5 generation non-stealth Typhoon before the Typhoon pilot even knew there was an F-35 in the air. Stealth is not just an attribute, it is a different class of plane.

 

[zen]

Can we leave the political rhetoric and critique of states existence/independent actions to some other thread?

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Not sure if this is relevant but:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wj422xeZ2g
Japan's F-X fighter program will merge with the Tempest program.
I kinda expected this because judging from the concept arts and mockups of their jets, they look almost similar to one another, and they share almost the same exact missions and planned technologies. The F-X program team and Team Tempest might as well collaborate together and pool their resources into developing their Sixth-Generation Fighter, sharing the best of both worlds.

 

[FighterJock]

Not sure if this is relevant but:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wj422xeZ2g
Japan's F-X fighter program will merge with the Tempest program.
I kinda expected this because judging from the concept arts and mockups of their jets, they look almost similar to one another, and they share almost the same exact missions and planned technologies. The F-X program team and Team Tempest might as well collaborate together and pool their resources into developing their Sixth-Generation Fighter, sharing the best of both worlds.

It will be interesting to see what the final GCAP design will look like once the design is frozen and all three countries agree to the design.

 

[Fluff]

Sweden has always been opportunistic.

All governments are, and for the sake of their mandates, they should be.

Ask Norwegian elders how they think about the Swedish "neutrality" during WW2. Now they seem to think they can get a free ride within NATO, just join, sit back, and profit from the protection by other nations, free of charge.

We're not refighting WWII, we're concerned with someone still bearing a grudge for these wars:

List of wars between Russia and Sweden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I was not aware that NATO has subscription fees but gives waivers or that Sweden and Finland have no armed forces or weapons manufacturers of their own. I was also under the delusion that the NATO treaty had something called 'Article 5,' meaning that is, say, Türkiye was attacked, Sweden and Finland would be obligated to come to its aid.

F-35 is multi-role. I would rather rely on an F-35 for air superiority than a Typhoon or Tornado or Gripen or Rafale.

The USAF disagrees with you about the use of strike-optimised jack-of-all-trades aircraft for air superiority. Now the RAF, other European air forces, and Japan have the same opinion, which is why they're aiming to keep the class of the Typhoon type but realise that those particular planes are ageing. They're not ordering more F-35s to succeed them. I suspect that their strategic analysis is not entirely incompetent.

I was referring to Swedens 'opportunistic' attitude when it comes to their past "neutrality".
During WW2 they pretended to be neutral but actually collaborated with Germany.
During the cold war they were neutral but assumed that NATO would come to their rescue anyway.
Zelensky thought the same when already before the war he imposed laws that discriminated the Russian speaking minority. But he was wrong, NATO did not send armed forces but merely weapons.
That was a wake-up call for Sweden who now want to join NATO to benefit from 'Article 5', not so much to come to the aid of other NATO members, and especially not Türkiye who tried to block Sweden from joining NATO.
I call Sweden's behavior of the past 85 years 'opportunistic' but I suppose it could also be called 'smart'.

Through the centuries there have been many many many wars in Europe. If all countries would hold still a grudge against each other because of that there could not be a NATO or an EU or a Schengen treaty. Only countries with a dissatisfied Russian speaking minority are at risk from Russia.

The F-35 is not as good as F-22 when it comes to air superiority, but as a 5th generation stealth fighter it would have no trouble shooting down a 4.5 generation non-stealth Typhoon before the Typhoon pilot even knew there was an F-35 in the air. Stealth is not just an attribute, it is a different class of plane.

Fortunately, the f22, f35 and typhoon are all on one team. The other team are flying warmed over models from the tornado time. U.K. as an example, can still afford to run 2 airframes, which gives several benefits. Smaller countries understandably have to run one airframe.

I’d think today, there are very few dissatisfied Russian minorities, most are thanking their lucky stars.

My limited understanding on ww2 Sweden, was that hitler made clear he would invade them(as Norway was) if they didn’t provide coal, iron etc. easy to say today that they should have fought or made them invade, but things looked a bit different in 39.

Cold War was a different time,’ buffer countries’ had to walk a narrow line, Between 2 nuclear armed behemoths. Given where we are now, I’d say most made an ok job of it.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Not sure if this is relevant but:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wj422xeZ2g
Japan's F-X fighter program will merge with the Tempest program.
I kinda expected this because judging from the concept arts and mockups of their jets, they look almost similar to one another, and they share almost the same exact missions and planned technologies. The F-X program team and Team Tempest might as well collaborate together and pool their resources into developing their Sixth-Generation Fighter, sharing the best of both worlds.

It will be interesting to see what the final GCAP design will look like once the design is frozen and all three countries agree to the design.

Yep. I anticipate that it might most likely be the second (Or third, if FCAS gets there faster) Sixth Generation fighter to be up in the air, after the United States' Next Generation Air Dominance

 

[timmymagic]

Not sure if this is relevant but:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wj422xeZ2g
Japan's F-X fighter program will merge with the Tempest program.
I kinda expected this because judging from the concept arts and mockups of their jets, they look almost similar to one another, and they share almost the same exact missions and planned technologies. The F-X program team and Team Tempest might as well collaborate together and pool their resources into developing their Sixth-Generation Fighter, sharing the best of both worlds.

It will be interesting to see what the final GCAP design will look like once the design is frozen and all three countries agree to the design.

Yep. I anticipate that it might most likely be the second (Or third, if FCAS gets there faster) Sixth Generation fighter to be up in the air, after the United States' Next Generation Air Dominance

Given Trappier's recent comments there is little chance of FCAS arriving before GCAP. As late as 2050 has been mooted...

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Not sure if this is relevant but:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wj422xeZ2g
Japan's F-X fighter program will merge with the Tempest program.
I kinda expected this because judging from the concept arts and mockups of their jets, they look almost similar to one another, and they share almost the same exact missions and planned technologies. The F-X program team and Team Tempest might as well collaborate together and pool their resources into developing their Sixth-Generation Fighter, sharing the best of both worlds.

It will be interesting to see what the final GCAP design will look like once the design is frozen and all three countries agree to the design.

Yep. I anticipate that it might most likely be the second (Or third, if FCAS gets there faster) Sixth Generation fighter to be up in the air, after the United States' Next Generation Air Dominance

Given Trappier's recent comments there is little chance of FCAS arriving before GCAP. As late as 2050 has been mooted...

I see. So that means GCAP will be far ahead of FCAS. In that case, it might be better for the FCAS program to merge with the GCAP program, as one Italian Air Force chief once sad (From the article I read): “investing huge financial resources in two equivalent programs is unthinkable.”

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Here's the article about what the Italian Air Force Chief was addressing about:

Italian Air Force Boss Envisions Merger Of Europe’s Next-Generation Combat Aircraft Programs

Bringing together Tempest and the Future Combat Air System would surely be logical, but actually doing so is more easily said than done.

www.thedrive.com

 

[zen]

How about we hear a Japanese perspective?

Janes Defence Weekly's Takahashi Kosuke has a piece on the subject in The Diplomat.

Why Japan Chose Britain and Italy for Its F-X Fighter Program

5 reasons why Japan decided to jointly develop a next-generation fighter with the U.K. and Italy, not the U.S.

thediplomat.com

Note the Source Code issue and how this profoundly impacts the addition of ANY content by the user nation.
If the UK wants to add a weapon to the JSF integration list, it would be at the back of the queue......a queue that's very long and on which progress is now grindingly slow. Unless US Government put pressure on LM to fast track it through.
US weapons providers would then lobby the US Government to refuse, as they would claim US sourced weapons can do the job and secure US jobs....
Which would put the UK in position of having to essentially wait forever for it's weapon cleared for use, or abandon it (along with UK jobs) for waiting in the queue for US weapons.
Unless the UK cracked open the sourcecode and violated IP rights. Creating a diplomatic storm as LM and US providers would throw a fit and lobbying cash to punish the UK.

 

[red admiral]

If the UK wants to add a weapon to the JSF integration list, it would be at the back of the queue.....

This is not how it works