BAE Systems M777 Portee System

[Kat Tsun]

"You don't need to use poorly fitted analogies."
My apologies...

I didn't mean it to be insulting, I just meant that the problem of "how to make 'shoot and scoot'" work has been known for decades.

There's nothing wrong with towed guns in a 1980's artillery environment, which is what we see in Ukraine, except that present models of howitzers in service or entering service were under-protected. The howitzers that were supposed to show up in the year 2000 would have adequate protection, then the Cold War ended, and all those programs except Pzh 2000 faded away or never got started.

Self-propelled howitzers' problems seem to be related to their vulnerable areas presenting to a shell burst are substantially bigger than a tube gun on limbers (or a commercial semi-truck chassis) and their vulnerable areas are inadequately protected to stop the shell fragments from penetrating. The density of components inside the vehicle almost assuredly means something will be destroyed if it is penetrated, too, and often that something is vital like a hydraulic motor, fuel line, or oil reservoir. That's without talking about crew casualties.

On a towed gun, these can be replaced within a few hours, while a self-propelled gun needs an entire recovery team and maybe closer to a day to fix itself, if it can be fixed. Of course the crew on a towed gun can simply dip into a dugout, and avoid casualties altogether, unless they are unlucky enough to be directly hit.

That's all there is to it. The solution is to armor the self-propelled howitzer better, like Pzh 2000, but that requires a new vehicle.

So how many decades away are we from fully modernized howitzers capable of surviving on a 1980's battlefield? Pzh 2000 isn't for everyone, and perhaps designing a vehicle that is survivable and capable like it might take 20 years or longer for most NATO countries, so there's still room for stuff like CAESAR and Archer (which are towed guns on trucks) to eat that space. They seem to be reasonably survivable by CAESAR's performance in Ukraine at least.

 

[riggerrob]

…. the crew on a towed gun can simply dip into a dugout, and avoid casualties altogether, unless they are unlucky enough to be directly hit. ..

When was the last time you “simply dug” a dugout, trench or gun pit?

Digging is the sort of hard manual labour that modern soldiers are not conditioned for. That sort of physical conditioning needs to start during pre-teen years.
Take the example of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment beating the Royal School of Artillery’s record for digging gun pits by something like 30 percent during WW2. Those Newfies were fishermen and loggers who had been doing hard manual labor since before they were teenagers.
OTOH the previous RSA was set by mal-nourished factory workers from Britain.

Until you install bulldozer blades - on every artillery vehicle - “digging in” will remain exhausting manual labor.

 

[Kat Tsun]

When was the last time you “simply dug” a dugout, trench or gun pit?

Considering they exist in Ukraine, I dunno. Maybe an hour ago someone who was working a office job last month was doing it?

If you've never dug a foxhole, you probably never made it past basic training or bothered joining, in which case you likely found a better job, but basic training isn't hard when it comes down to it. It's mostly just about doing things as you're told.

Digging is the sort of hard manual labour that modern soldiers are not conditioned for. That sort of physical conditioning needs to start during pre-teen years.

It absolutely does not.

Besides the common myths about the deleterious effects of major muscular engagement during preteen years on future growth, which no doubt kept plenty of Westerners from around 1950 onward from practicing weight training at 7 years old, there's real world evidence that directly contradicts what you are stating. In all seriousness, the average forum goer on this website is still within military age to go volunteer for Ukraine's International Legion.

The armies of middle-aged and elderly, out-of-shape, conscripted lifelong office workers and urban/suburban youths of the present forces of Ukrainians and Russians on the frontlines are able to do it with little trouble.

There's tankers in Ukraine training right now who are in their 60's, and one 71 year old was training on M1s at Graefenwohr last May, in preparation for the counteroffensive.

Soviet motor rifle DFPs were also expected to be dug by relatively unfit conscripts (even then, giants compared to stunted and malnourished 18th century farm peasants or whatever mythical ubermen you're imagining) using hand tools for the most part. Some portions would need a cable layer trailer, which requires a motor vehicle, I guess. The hand dug elements included a dugout or two for the 7-man section, a few firing positions for the RPK/PK and RPG-7, and two positions for a BMP/BTR.

It might take a few hours more, but it will be built.



The squad level DFP shown above requires 30 man hours to develop to this level and is done entirely by the BMP crew and dismount section, using the e-tools, mattock, pick, and full 36" to 48" shovels carried by the BMP. Soldiers who have never soldiered and lived civilian lives for 40+ years might take another one or two man hours per man, but they can still do it in an afternoon.

Regardless, any issues with "conditioning" can be solved readily by shrieking NCOs/warrant officers, electrolytic drink mixes, and performance enhancing drugs (nicotine, caffeine, acetaminophen, and ibuprofen). Even a squad of >40 year old motor rifles should be able to dig an extensive enough trench work that, by the time they go to bed that night, they will be able to sleep in a dugout protected from shellfire.

Soldiering isn't hard, and there's also no good reason to believe that, either. Considering soldiers in previous eras were often the least physically and morally fit people in a society, they aren't really the best of a society. You save that for philosophers, bodybuilders, scientists, and engineers.

At the end of the day, the only "hard" part of soldiering is hard like in "hard work". Easy yet tedious, exhausting, and menial.

Until you install bulldozer blades - on every artillery vehicle - “digging in” will remain exhausting manual labor.

Which is exactly what any army that has more than about a dozen armored vehicles does? It's still exhausting and hard work, but not a problem for people with sufficient extrinsic motivation, clearly. It happens in real life in Ukraine.