• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Bachem Ba 349 "Natter"

Justo Miranda

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
4,587
Reaction score
2,783
Website
www.amazon.com
The nose made in concrete

cluttonfred said:
Jemiba said:
In "Deutsche Flugzeugbewaffnung bis 1945" by Manfred Griehl, a kind of pre-project to the Natter,
designed by Erich Natter is shown. Probably from early 1944, it should have been powered by a solid
fuel rocket and carried a prone pilot and up to eight spin stabilised rocket projectiles.Designation is
given as BP 20, called "BeRak I", too, for "bemannte Rakete" (manned rocket)

Interesting. The nose appears to be made of something very solid since the wings are so far forward and the CG must be at about 20% chord of those little stub wings. A solid armored nose?
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,269
Reaction score
1,105
Michel Van said:
How desperate were we germans in WW2, to build such contraption and get a pilot to fly it ? ? ?

To my opinion, it is just a visualisation of the idea of a manned rocket interceptor and, as it is
shown with rocket armament, a least the problems of aiming and shooting during a very fast
approach to the target were adressed here by Erich Bachem. The Me 163, very fast for its days,
too, actually suffered from the high approach speeds, which gave the pilots only a few seconds
to aim and fire. And even the Mk 108 needed quite a lot of shots to achieve a kill ... if properly
aimed.
And about the astonishment about all those weird projects in Germany at the end of the war,<just
remember: The RLM wasn't the only instance for launching such projects anymore. There was the SS,
a lot of ambitioned airforce officers and of course, the bosses of the aviation industry and even smaller
companies, that used exactly the widespread desperation to get their "projects" launched. The often
vaunted German administration was dissipating into a lo of small parts. The superior regulatory force,
responsible for the whole aviation branch had long been lost.
 

Sea Skimmer

ACCESS: Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
394
Reaction score
37
windswords said:
J.A.W.,Fireball XL-5 ftw! Loved that show as a kid. I own the DVD set. Showed it to my son when he was 6. He loved it too.


As for a manned V2/A4, was not the V2 supposed to be the booster for the Sanger rocket plane?





The Silverbird was supposed to be launched from a track several kilometers long with a whole cluster of V-2 engines mounted on a sled for propulsion. I think it was fourteen of them all packaged into one reusable module that never left the track. The odds of this working and Silverbird then soaring into near space after theoretically reaching around mach 20 at sea level are not good.
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,284
Reaction score
4,043

Attachments

  • natter1.jpg
    natter1.jpg
    50.1 KB · Views: 402
  • natter8.jpg
    natter8.jpg
    51.4 KB · Views: 120
  • natter4.jpg
    natter4.jpg
    85.3 KB · Views: 115
  • natter6.jpg
    natter6.jpg
    171.3 KB · Views: 106
  • natter10.jpg
    natter10.jpg
    53.6 KB · Views: 368
  • natter5.jpg
    natter5.jpg
    134.3 KB · Views: 374
  • natter7.jpg
    natter7.jpg
    86.9 KB · Views: 384
  • natter3.jpg
    natter3.jpg
    81.8 KB · Views: 400

cluttonfred

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
1,390
Reaction score
114
Website
cluttonfred.info
Wonderful stuff, hesham, very interesting to see how it evolve into more of an airplane than the early piloted rocket sketches. Setting aside its deadly purpose, the Natter has always interested me for it's very simple design (note the elevons) and wooden construction.
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,284
Reaction score
4,043
Hi,


here is the Bachem Ba.349-V drawing with a view to Natter in details.


http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/schematics/request-plans-bachem-natter-18959.html
 

Attachments

  • ba349_esq.jpg
    ba349_esq.jpg
    30 KB · Views: 1,207
  • natter-ba349.jpg
    natter-ba349.jpg
    70.6 KB · Views: 1,181

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,284
Reaction score
4,043
Hi,

here is an addition drawing and Info for Bachen Ba.349.
 

Attachments

  • 349-0.png
    349-0.png
    90.3 KB · Views: 120
  • 349-a.png
    349-a.png
    204.8 KB · Views: 106
  • 349-6.png
    349-6.png
    123.1 KB · Views: 98
  • 349-5.png
    349-5.png
    205 KB · Views: 92
  • 349-4.png
    349-4.png
    164.5 KB · Views: 98
  • 349-3.png
    349-3.png
    88.4 KB · Views: 884
  • 349-2.png
    349-2.png
    229.8 KB · Views: 950
  • 349-1.png
    349-1.png
    107.6 KB · Views: 988

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,284
Reaction score
4,043
The Bachem BP.20.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bachem-BP-20-BERAK-I-1-72-Bird-Models-Resinbausatz-resin-kit-/232111952939?hash=item360af3542b:g:RZIAAOSwZ1BXfrcs
 

Attachments

  • Bachem-BP20-BERAK-I (1).jpg
    Bachem-BP20-BERAK-I (1).jpg
    37 KB · Views: 182

lucamax

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
243
Reaction score
32
Website
www.res-aeronautica.com
Dear friends,
I'm looking for information about the history of the Bachem "Natter" project and I found conflicting indications about the manned flight of the few prototypes built.
In particular, according to David Myhra's book "Bachem Ba 349 Natter - X Planes of the Third Reich Series" (Schiffer publ.), just the model M-23 made on 01/03/1945 the well known and tragical manned flight, but another airplane maybe tried a second piloted test with identical bad luck.
The same author, however, in the book "Secret Aircraft Designs of the Third Reich" (Schiffer publ.) talks about three more successful manned flights in the early March of 1945: do you have more informations about that?
Thanks in advance.
--
Lucamax
 

sgeorges4

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
600
Reaction score
163
Bachem evolution: http://tofast2.0lx.net/germanvtol/natterdesigns/bachem_bp20.html?i=1
 

Michel Van

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
4,807
Reaction score
976
lucamax said:
Dear friends,
I'm looking for information about the history of the Bachem "Natter" project and I found conflicting indications about the manned flight of the few prototypes built.
In particular, according to David Myhra's book "Bachem Ba 349 Natter - X Planes of the Third Reich Series" (Schiffer publ.), just the model M-23 made on 01/03/1945 the well known and tragical manned flight, but another airplane maybe tried a second piloted test with identical bad luck.
The same author, however, in the book "Secret Aircraft Designs of the Third Reich" (Schiffer publ.) talks about three more successful manned flights in the early March of 1945: do you have more informations about that?
Thanks in advance.
--
Lucamax

What happen after Lothar Sieber fatal flight in 1 march 1945 ?
They try to tested the B 349 unmanned,
but in April the Allies forces approach the Bachem factory in Baden-Württemberg.
So the SS move the Production and remaining Ba 349 to Bavaria,
Only discover there new site taken by US army also, so they surrender to them and gave the Hardware to US military.

I think not that they had the time for more manned test flights during this 30 days time period.
they had to pack up the production and prototypes and move them, that need time !
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,284
Reaction score
4,043
From Oltre il Cielo 1957-11,

here is a drawings to it,but the mid one is a new for me ?.
 

Attachments

  • 1.png
    1.png
    278.2 KB · Views: 120

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,269
Reaction score
1,105
The description says something like "...la versione aliante per prove di stablita", which the Google translator translates
as "glider version for stability testing"
A skid would have made sense and according to "Bachem Ba 349 Natter" by D. Myhra, there actually was a glider version.
But not with skids, but with wheels ...
(photo from the mentioned book)
 

Attachments

  • Ba-349_glider.jpg
    Ba-349_glider.jpg
    61.4 KB · Views: 126

eltf177

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
47
Reaction score
2
The new Osprey book on the Ba-349 has a lot of fascinating information on the unmanned and manned test flights. One thing they brought up was that after one fuel was added the pad was washed down with water before the second was added to prevent problems with spillage.

Now imagine the rush to get a dozen or so Natter's airborne in time to intercept. Does anyone see the fueling being hurried and the pad wash being ignored? That could easily lead to catastrophe...
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,269
Reaction score
1,105
From what I understand, the launch pole for the Ba 349 would have been very simple, actually
just "a 70 foot pine tree stripped of its bark".
So for a dozen Ba 349 just a dozen poles would have been erected, I think. And after launch
would have been time enough to wash the launch pads.
 

Justo Miranda

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
4,587
Reaction score
2,783
Website
www.amazon.com
Jemiba said:
The description says something like "...la versione aliante per prove di stablita", which the Google translator translates
as "glider version for stability testing"
A skid would have made sense and according to "Bachem Ba 349 Natter" by D. Myhra, there actually was a glider version.
But not with skids, but with wheels ...
(photo from the mentioned book)

Hi
 

Attachments

  • Natter 002.jpg
    Natter 002.jpg
    257.4 KB · Views: 181

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,284
Reaction score
4,043
hesham said:
From Oltre il Cielo 1957-11,

here is a drawings to it,but the mid one is a new for me ?.

No one note,the mid drawing had no tail unit under the fuselage ?.
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,269
Reaction score
1,105
How to land on a skid with a tail fin on the underside ? The draftsman did at least a logical conclusion,
when trying to depict a "glider version", though with great certainty he was wrong.
The actual glider version, as shown by Just had a tail fin ... and so needed an unusual long landing gear.
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,284
Reaction score
4,043
Jemiba said:
How to land on a skid with a tail fin on the underside ? The draftsman did at least a logical conclusion,
when trying to depict a "glider version", though with great certainty he was wrong.
The actual glider version, as shown by Just had a tail fin ... and so needed an unusual long landing gear.

I know that my dear Jemiba,but there was a version of it with skids,but had tail
unit under the wing,by a folded or a retractable skids ?.
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,269
Reaction score
1,105
Where do you got reliable information, that there was a versions with skids ?
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,284
Reaction score
4,043
Jemiba said:
Where do you got reliable information, that there was a versions with skids ?

Unfortunately I don't remember,but there was no drawing for it,but just Info.
 

Grzesio

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
258
Reaction score
76
Website
chemnitzer27kb.blogspot.com
There was such a glider, the M1 prototype, taking off with a three wheeled trolley, equipped with an adjustable trim weight in the nose. Four pictures on a trolley are presented in Brett Gooden's book on the Natter. The glider was intended to be recovered with a parachute (as operational aircraft) and hence had no skid at all, but it did have the lower fin as big as the M3. It made only one flight on November 3, 1944 ending with a crash (due to improperly placed tow attachment point; the pilot safely escaped with a parachute).
This variant is also shown in Justo's drawing above, sadly the trolley is drawn very inaccurately, being generally twice too wide.
The next prototype was already the M3 with wheels.
 

edwest

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,187
Reaction score
315
I think a false sense of desperation is being presented here. One week after D-Day, the Germans began launching the V-1 against England. This was followed by the V-2 which could not be shot down. I think the perspective should be: What if my country was under attack? Would I do everything I could to keep everything going as far as defense? Even unto the last moment? Hitler lost trust in the Army after the 20 July plot and the SS eventually gained control of all secret weapons development. I have seen photos of Fw 190 assembly going on in unused railroad tunnels, of Natters sitting in a field. A new 3D render on the Natter book site shows two MK 108 cannons in the nose (or similar). Shells are visible, with one being larger/different from the other.

 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,284
Reaction score
4,043
From ; German Secret Flight Test Centers to 1945.
 

Attachments

  • c.png
    c.png
    560 KB · Views: 74

edwest

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,187
Reaction score
315
There was a mechanism to extract the spent cartridge in the MK 108. See: Rapid Fire: The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine-Guns and Their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces by Anthony Williams.
 

ubekistano

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Jul 18, 2020
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
The Bachem Ba 349 "NATTER"
was one of unusual Aircraft Project

Conceive as point-defence rocket powered interceptor, build mostly from oak wood & plywood
using one Walter HWK 109-509 A2 rocket motor and 4x Schmidding SG34 solid rocket boosters for vertical liftoff
It had ahead for it time, a Radar guide remote control who bring the Ba 349 close to Enemy Bomber fleet,
Were the Pilot take over the control and attack the Bomber fleet with 24x RZ 73 „Föhn“ or 33x R4M “Orkan“ unguided rockets.
After attack the Pilot goes in dive, shut down the Walter engine and deployed a parachute,
here the Ba 349 start separate into pieces, first the nose section of the Natter, then the Pilot and the fuselage with engine.
they all land with parachute and are collected. The BA 349 is refurnish, put together and installed on Launch pad.

on 25 February 1944 the first manned Launch of Natter take place (under allot of Pressure by SS and RLM in Berlin).
The volunteer Luftwaffe test pilot, Lothar Sieber. Take off with Natter test Model 23
but at high of 150 meter the M23 pitched backwards, then at 500 meter high, canopy is rip off from aircraft,
then the Aircraft disappear into cloud layer then dive vertical down and Crash, killing Sieber.

Official the SS declare the crash to failure of canopy lash on Be 349.
in-official there were several factors who lead to the crash,
during the Launch of M23 one of Schmidding SG34 failed to jettison ( its remains were dug up at the crash site in 1998)
also was consider that moment the canopy is rip off, Sibel was knockout or even his neck broken,
as the pilot’s head would have snapped back at event.
but there is interesting little know detail:
a group of Children watch the crash, one of eyewitness explain in TV-Doku the events

we were playing football as we hear a explosion in the sky,
as we look up, this airplane [the Be 349] shoot over us down and crash in the woods.
we run to site but we found only a burring crater and tiny pieces.
then the military came...

this is give a new insight: a explosion before the crash, could have the Walter engine failed ?

Source on Eyewitness is german ZDF TV-Doku "Projekt Natter".

(odd i not find any data about the Natter in this Forum, why ?)
Probable he broke the sound barrel in his vertical fall
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,838
Reaction score
738
I doubt it tbh, too low for a start and i reckon the structure would not take it anyway. It would take quite a distance to be supersonic with that tech even supposing the aircraft could do that.
 

edwest

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,187
Reaction score
315
Natter: Manned Missile of the Third Reich by Dr. Brett Gooden.


 

fonaktamas

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Probable he broke the sound barrel in his vertical fall
no
the Walter engine and the four Schmidding SG34 solids had not enough thrust for that
and maximum speed were expected around 800km/h after take off
You are not necessarily right:

"The Luftwaffe test pilot Lothar Sieber (7 April 1922 – 1 March 1945) may have inadvertently become the first man to break the sound barrier on 1 March 1945. This occurred while he was piloting a Bachem Ba 349 "Natter" for the first manned vertical takeoff of a rocket in history. In 55 seconds, he traveled a total of 14 km (8.7 miles)."

"The Walter liquid-fueled rocket motor built up to full thrust and Sieber pushed the button to ignite the four solid boosters. Initially, it rose vertically. at an altitude of about 100 to 150 m (330 to 490 ft), the Natter suddenly pitched up into an inverted curve at about 30° to the vertical. At about 500 m (1,600 ft) the cockpit canopy was seen to fly off. The Natter continued to climb at high speed at an angle of 15° from the horizontal and disappeared into the clouds. The Walter motor stalled about 15 seconds after take-off. It is estimated the Natter reached 1,500 m (4,900 ft), at which point it nose-dived and hit the ground with great force about 32 seconds later, some kilometres from the launch site. Unknown at the time, one of the Schmidding boosters failed to jettison and its remains were dug up at the crash site in 1998."

The Walter engine has 2000kg and the four Schmidding boosters 4x500kg thrust, but the Natter weighs only 2232kg. This is 1,792 thrust/weight ratio against the Bell XS-1's 0,495 value. OK, I know the Natter has worse aerodinamic design and was a subsonic plane, but not impossible.
Here is another article about this deadly flight:

(It wasn't the only event, because Mano Ziegler reported his friend Heini Dittmar's famous flight on 6 July 1944 in the Me 163V-18 (VA+SP) at a speed of 1,130km/h. And Hans Guido Mutke claimed to have broke the sound barrier with his Me 262 on 9 April 1945 also. Without knowledge of the exact flight altitude, among other things, have not been proven.)
 

edwest

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,187
Reaction score
315
Justo,

The cover you show is not the same as the new book.
 

Similar threads

Top