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Bachem Ba 349 "Natter"

Michel Van

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The Bachem Ba 349 "NATTER"
was one of unusual Aircraft Project

Conceive as point-defence rocket powered interceptor, build mostly from oak wood & plywood
using one Walter HWK 109-509 A2 rocket motor and 4x Schmidding SG34 solid rocket boosters for vertical liftoff
It had ahead for it time, a Radar guide remote control who bring the Ba 349 close to Enemy Bomber fleet,
Were the Pilot take over the control and attack the Bomber fleet with 24x RZ 73 „Föhn“ or 33x R4M “Orkan“ unguided rockets.
After attack the Pilot goes in dive, shut down the Walter engine and deployed a parachute,
here the Ba 349 start separate into pieces, first the nose section of the Natter, then the Pilot and the fuselage with engine.
they all land with parachute and are collected. The BA 349 is refurnish, put together and installed on Launch pad.

on 25 February 1944 the first manned Launch of Natter take place (under allot of Pressure by SS and RLM in Berlin).
The volunteer Luftwaffe test pilot, Lothar Sieber. Take off with Natter test Model 23
but at high of 150 meter the M23 pitched backwards, then at 500 meter high, canopy is rip off from aircraft,
then the Aircraft disappear into cloud layer then dive vertical down and Crash, killing Sieber.

Official the SS declare the crash to failure of canopy lash on Be 349.
in-official there were several factors who lead to the crash,
during the Launch of M23 one of Schmidding SG34 failed to jettison ( its remains were dug up at the crash site in 1998)
also was consider that moment the canopy is rip off, Sibel was knockout or even his neck broken,
as the pilot’s head would have snapped back at event.
but there is interesting little know detail:
a group of Children watch the crash, one of eyewitness explain in TV-Doku the events

we were playing football as we hear a explosion in the sky,
as we look up, this airplane [the Be 349] shoot over us down and crash in the woods.
we run to site but we found only a burring crater and tiny pieces.
then the military came...

this is give a new insight: a explosion before the crash, could have the Walter engine failed ?

Source on Eyewitness is german ZDF TV-Doku "Projekt Natter".

(odd i not find any data about the Natter in this Forum, why ?)
 

Jemiba

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As the Natter had the same type of engine as the Me 163, I think it could only have been a quite small explosion.
A detonation of the rocket engine, as experienced with the Me 163 several times,probably would have lead to complete
destruction of the whole aircraft and then, only debris would have been spread over a large area. But here, the aircraft
seems to heve been more or less intact when impacting the ground.
 

Stargazer2006

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Michel Van said:
(odd i not find any data about the Natter in this Forum, why ?)

Probably because it's not a project... I believe this topic ought to be moved to the Aerospace section since the Natter was produced and serviced.
 

Jemiba

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Stargazer2006 said:
Probably because it's not a project... I believe this topic ought to be moved to the Aerospace section since the Natter was produced and serviced.

I would agree, it's not a project, but used in service ? Here I would say that the posting guidelines, point 4
should be applied : "...projects. Prototypes that didn't enter series production may also be appropriate..." ;)
especially as, with the experiences of the one and only manned launch, the production version probably
would have incorporated some modifications.
 

Michel Van

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the Natter was almost put in service, but this never happened !

Bachem made more unmanned test-flight to make the manned version save after the death of Lothar Sieber.
and SS trained the Pilot on program for Attack on US bomber fleet near Bachem factory at Stuttgart.
but in 1945 the Allies moved closer and closer to Bachem factory, so the SS evacuated the Production and remaining Ba 349 to Bavaria,
only to found there new site taken by US army also, so they surrender to them and gave the Hardware to US military.
so the Ba 349 end up as a medium of exchange under the Allies...
 

Jemiba

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From "Flugzeug Profile 31", the Bachem Ba 349A, whioch would have had an armament
of 24 Henschel Hs 217 "Föhn" rockets.
Great drawings, Justo ! Wasn't aware, that it was you, until I had it in my hands again.
Quite a while ago ... ;)
 

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Justo Miranda

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;)
 

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Cy-27

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The 24 Henschel Hs 217 "Föhn" rockets, mentioned by Jemiba in an earlier post, installed into Bachem Ba 349 "Natter" was in Luftfahrt History Heft 14.

(An extensive 17 page article was also in issue 13)
 

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bigvlada

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Very interesting, especially the last two pictures. The nose goes off, then the pilot ejects. How strong a parachute was needed? They thought the aircraft could be reusable? Was there any plan to use mobile launch towers, similar to A4?
 

Michel Van

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bigvlada said:
Very interesting, especially the last two pictures. The nose goes off, then the pilot ejects. How strong a parachute was needed? They thought the aircraft could be reusable? Was there any plan to use mobile launch towers, similar to A4?


the pilot not ejects. he falls out the cockpit !
because on moment that nosecone is separate, the air pressure keeps the pilot in seat, until speed is slow down by a the main parachute.
again a novel of the germans NATTER used new parachute according the ZDF TV documentation "Projekt Natter" they use "Bänder Fallschirm"
if i understand that right it must look something like the parachute used on Shuttle Solid booster
photo.jpg
 

Justo Miranda

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bigvlada said:
Very interesting, especially the last two pictures. The nose goes off, then the pilot ejects. How strong a parachute was needed? They thought the aircraft could be reusable? Was there any plan to use mobile launch towers, similar to A4?
Mobile lauch device here...
 

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Jemiba

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The most interesting part to be reused certainly was the rocket engine, I think.
 

Michel Van

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bigvlada said:
Thank you Justo. I assumed the launch platform would be bigger.


oddly not
the stationary launch pad had long mast
during test it show that Natter could launch stabile from much shorter structure.
so this feature had to be used on Mobile operating launcher (the one picture Justo had post)

Here nice picture of Natter Model in Technical museum in Munich
1944_Bachem_Ba_349_Natter_r_anagoria.JPG
note the Target visor on nose, the German Text on fuselage translate:

Finding repot to commandant of military training area Heuberg
Tel. Stetten am Kalten Mark 222 (that a address)
REWARD !
 

jetboy

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Hi,nice thread,wasnt there plans to use telegraph poles as launching sites?...cheers Don
 

jetboy

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THERES QUITE afew kits of both launching systems about,if your intrested....cheers Don


 

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Michel Van said:
Here nice picture of Natter Model in Technical museum in Munich
1944_Bachem_Ba_349_Natter_r_anagoria.JPG
Thank you for this picture Michael! I believe I saw this plane when I visited the museum as a kid (although rockets, dioramas and chemical reactions at a push of a button were more appealing back then :)). Fascinating place.
 

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Hi,


From Luftfahrt History # 13,here is a strange design to Bachem Ba.349 B-0 with
M66 engines.
 

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Michel Van

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So strange is the design not at all, Hesham

The t-tail solve the problem, that Booster are to close to the tail empennage of Natter prototype.
 

Jemiba

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In "Deutsche Flugzeugbewaffnung bis 1945" by Manfred Griehl, a kind of pre-project to the Natter,
designed by Erich Natter is shown. Probably from early 1944, it should have been powered by a solid
fuel rocket and carried a prone pilot and up to eight spin stabilised rocket projectiles.Designation is
given as BP 20, called "BeRak I", too, for "bemannte Rakete" (manned rocket)
 

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Jemiba

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GTX said:
Interesting...but yikes!

The liquid fuelled Walter rocket engine probably endangered the pilot even more. ;)
 

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Jemiba said:
In "Deutsche Flugzeugbewaffnung bis 1945" by Manfred Griehl, a kind of pre-project to the Natter,
designed by Erich Natter is shown. Probably from early 1944, it should have been powered by a solid
fuel rocket and carried a prone pilot and up to eight spin stabilised rocket projectiles.Designation is
given as BP 20, called "BeRak I", too, for "bemannte Rakete" (manned rocket)

Interesting. The nose appears to be made of something very solid since the wings are so far forward and the CG must be at about 20% chord of those little stub wings. A solid armored nose?
 

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Wonder if they ever sent anyone up in an A4/V2?

Der SS-man volunteer, or concentration camp test-subject?

'Spose H. Himmler would not have wanted the 1st man through the 'sound-barrier' to be non-Aryan..

Were any Bomarc missiles flown with a man aboard?
 

Jemiba

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cluttonfred said:
.. The nose appears to be made of something very solid since the wings are so far forward and the CG must be at about 20% chord of those little stub wings. A solid armored nose?

Not sure how much development was put into that sketch, maybe it was just the idea for an ultra-simple
interceptor ? But with a solid fuel rocket, CG would shift forwards during flight anyway, I think.
 

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J.A.W. said:
Wonder if they ever sent anyone up in an A4/V2?

Der SS-man volunteer, or concentration camp test-subject?

'Spose H. Himmler would not have wanted the 1st man through the 'sound-barrier' to be non-Aryan..

Were any Bomarc missiles flown with a man aboard?
During the testing, V2 flew over the 100km line in some cases. The US sent (and retrieved live) fruit flies using the V2. Can't say anything about the acceleration or methods of ejection in eventual manned mission.
Here's what appears to be a user's manual for V2 launch technicians (in german). The number of pictures of blondes is dangerously close to the number of pictures of the rocket. :D
 

J.A.W.

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Thanks.. but were they Hydrogen Peroxide bleached, or natural.. blondes?

The on-board movie footage of A4/V2 flight tests is stunning too,
& does anyone know - what did the G-meter read?

What was the Natter pilot expected to handle, G-wise, more than in the Me 163?

Mayhaps there was an Operation Paperclip, ex-SS scientist - who was involved in this project too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ifS2nP53Zs
 

Jemiba

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J.A.W. said:
What was the Natter pilot expected to handle, G-wise, more than in the Me 163?

Certainly more, as the Bachem used additional solid fuel boosters and after leaving its launch
pylon, it principally could (and probably had to) alter its trajectory to a more horizontal one.
I think, I read, that there were thoughts to fit the Natter with a radio guidance system to bring it
near to the target. Apart from difficulties to navigate such an aircraft in a very short time
(experienced by the Me 163, too), this could be an indication, that black or grey out problems
were foreseen.
 

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J.A.W.,Fireball XL-5 ftw! Loved that show as a kid. I own the DVD set. Showed it to my son when he was 6. He loved it too.


As for a manned V2/A4, was not the V2 supposed to be the booster for the Sanger rocket plane?
 

Jemiba

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windswords said:
As for a manned V2/A4, was not the V2 supposed to be the booster for the Sanger rocket plane?

The A4/V2 had a launch weight of about 13,000 kg and a payload of just about 800 kg. Would have been
quite a bad ratio for a booster, I think. And as a booster it to my opinion would have been overly complex
and expensive.
 

Michel Van

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Jemiba said:
In "Deutsche Flugzeugbewaffnung bis 1945" by Manfred Griehl, a kind of pre-project to the Natter,
designed by Erich Natter is shown. Probably from early 1944, it should have been powered by a solid
fuel rocket and carried a prone pilot and up to eight spin stabilised rocket projectiles.Designation is
given as BP 20, called "BeRak I", too, for "bemannte Rakete" (manned rocket)

Jesus Christ
How desperate were we germans in WW2, to build such contraption and get a pilot to fly it ? ? ?
 

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Michel Van said:
Jemiba said:
In "Deutsche Flugzeugbewaffnung bis 1945" by Manfred Griehl, a kind of pre-project to the Natter,
designed by Erich Natter is shown. Probably from early 1944, it should have been powered by a solid
fuel rocket and carried a prone pilot and up to eight spin stabilised rocket projectiles.Designation is
given as BP 20, called "BeRak I", too, for "bemannte Rakete" (manned rocket)

Jesus Christ
How desperate were we germans in WW2, to build such contraption and get a pilot to fly it ? ? ?

Was it perhaps intended for the Leonidas Squadron?
 

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