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Avro Atlantic

kitnut617

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The B-36 fuselage came with a bunch of other parts I got hold of so I could build my XC-99. It was a surprise part of the package as I practically got the whole model, when I did the deal I thought I was just getting the wings, u/c etc.
 

kitnut617

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Well that was a piece of the puzzle I have been trying to connect Skyblazer. I've resurrected my Atlantic build in a GB on the 'Beyond the Sprues' forum where it's in the 'Anything from a Book, Movie or Game' GB.

I'm revising my backstory so it would gel with the DH Ceres that is the main focus of Nevil Shute's book 'In the Wet' and I needed to find out how Shute could describe an aircraft, which many say is actually the Atlantic, in 1952 when he wrote the book and when the very first Vulcan had only just taken to the skies.

Your pictures here clears that up for me. Thanks.
 

kitnut617

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When I started my Atlantic project, I had been in contact with Mike Meehan. After a bit of going back & forth, he then sent me a load of info on it along with some notes on why it was his pet project (it's when I learnt he had a hand in the drawings that appear in the brochures).

One 3-View he sent me was this below, he said that this was an early design and that some publications have erroneously said that this was the final configuration which Mike stressed, was not the case. Bottom picture is another he sent me which he said appears in one issue of 'In the Wet' by Nevil Shute. I had thought I had posted these before but it doesn't appear so, must have been on another forum.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Absolutely splendid three-view, thanks!

I had absolutely no idea that the Avro Atlantic and de Havilland Ceres were one and the same project at an early stage. Thanks for this bit of info too. ;)
 

kitnut617

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To be truthful, the DH Ceres is a figment of Nevil Shute's imagination. As he wrote his book in 1952 and then published it in 1953, and that he was an accomplished aeronautical engineer in his own right (he started at De Havilland, then went to Vickers, then co-founded Airspeed), I'm thinking he must have had access to the Atlantic portfolio before it was made public. Perhaps he knew someone quite well at Avro, what with all his involvement in aircraft design.
 

kitnut617

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Nice find Hesham B)

My model has progressed a bit, but real life has prevented me from doing any model building lately. My big problem at the moment is figuring out the wing to fuselage connection, I've been slowly working it out in my AutoCAD and because I have a couple of other similar projects in mind, I'm working out what I need to do for the other project at the same time. Which all takes time --- ;)

Some more up to date pics of my project, I've been working out how to revise the main undercarriage into a 4-wheel truck too. Looking at cutaway drawings it looks quite possible to do but the hinge point has to be moved backwards to accommodate the lengthened wheel bay part
 

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hesham

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Nice Model Kitnut.
 

Schneiderman

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hesham said:
Hi,

on Air Trails magazine,I found this drawing for a jet transport version of Avro Vulcan,
very close to Atlantic.
Is it? It doesn't say it is an Avro design on the cover, and there is no reference to Avro in the contents list. Also it is shown with a US registration.
 

Antonio

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on Air Trails magazine,I found this drawing for a jet transport version of Avro Vulcan,
very close to Atlantic
Hesham, I think that's your personal guess...
 

hesham

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pometablava said:
Hesham, I think that's your personal guess...
Yes my dear Pometablava,very close,isn't it ?.
 

Hood

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It's a hypothetical artist's impression of a delta-wing airliner, probably inspired by, but in no way based on the Atlantic.
Note the wings are mounted to the top/centre of the fuselage unlike the Atlantic, also the wingtip tail surfaces and the odd wingtip engines and the curved nose unlike that of the Atlantic design.
 

Schneiderman

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hesham said:
Yes my dear Pometablava,very close,isn't it ?.
No, not really. Its a delta with four engines but that doesn't make it very close and certainly doesn't justify calling it a civil Avro Vulcan, which is misleading at best.
 

kitnut617

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Hood said:
It's a hypothetical artist's impression of a delta-wing airliner, probably inspired by, but in no way based on the Atlantic.
Note the wings are mounted to the top/centre of the fuselage unlike the Atlantic, also the wingtip tail surfaces and the odd wingtip engines and the curved nose unlike that of the Atlantic design.
Some of Chadwick's early Avro 698 designs looked a bit like that arrangement, cover sheet to BSP-Jet Bombers since 1949 shows something similar.

But aren't those shapes at the wingtips just aerodynamic 'bullets' ----- ???
 

lark

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Does the contents page of this Air Tails magazine says more..?
 

lark

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Thanks !

As the description of the cover art says, de delta is
indeed a pure fantasy design..
(Airman with a vision series of would be designers)
 

hesham

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lark said:
Thanks !

As the description of the cover art says, de delta is
indeed a pure fantasy design..
(Airman with a vision series of would be designers)
Of course my dear Lark,

it was not Atlantic,but kindly a looks like.
 

CNH

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So will someone tell us why it never happened? Was the design realistic?
 

CJGibson

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Could be that Avro were too busy building Vulcans and didn't want to be sidetracked or the MoS didn't want them sidetracked. I seem to recall some bother at Vickers when MoS paid for an extra hangar for Blue Boar development but Vickers put V.1000(?) work into it. I mention it in Vulcan's Hammer or BSP4.

Chris
 

Schneiderman

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CNH said:
So will someone tell us why it never happened? Was the design realistic?
Much the same story as with the Vickers V1000/VC7 I would assume; attempting to satisfy military and civil transport requirements with a single design and with neither customer showing any real enthusiasm. Handley-Page's derivatives from the Victor suffered the same fate.
 

kitnut617

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CJGibson said:
Could be that Avro were too busy building Vulcans and didn't want to be sidetracked or the MoS didn't want them sidetracked. I seem to recall some bother at Vickers when MoS paid for an extra hangar for Blue Boar development but Vickers put V.1000(?) work into it. I mention it in Vulcan's Hammer or BSP4.

Chris
Now that's an interesting comment Chris, I had figured something along those lines while developing my backstory for my model Atlantic I'm building. My story is Avro Canada built them for the RAF and the RCAF bought in on it afterwards ---- My Atlantic will be an RCAF one and was purchased instead of the Boeing 707
 

alertken

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HP was a personal fief of its designer-founder, but Avro was a Business Unit of HS Group, and V-A one of Vickers Ltd. All 3 knew how to do business with their one Customer, and with his system of In Service Support, and of free-issue of major items like engines, whose time/cost risk was his, not mine. The commonly known number for the Medium Bomber Force was 244, so all that HP/V-A/HS each needed to do was ease out the other 2, to secure a decade's steady, painless business. Not like that with pesky airlines, talking incomprehensibly about Guarantees such as for engine life - including cost of shop visits!!! Who he?

Even if HS found a way to agree a contract (what is a fixed price? what does it mean - penalty for late delivery?) with BOAC, why bother for a fraught order for 10? People ringing up at midnight screaming for stuff.

All of that was a factor in Herald's failure at market. F-27's Launch Customer was Aer Lingus, with equity holders BEAC/BOAC: they did try first to talk to HP about Illustrated Parts Catalogues, recommended outport spares packs...but soon gave up.

We here, aero-nuts, often forget that the techno-side of kit is...a given: most designs could fly: but does the Supplier care when I am AOG at the end of the line? This remains an issue with Russian types.
 

blackkite

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Hi! You can see Vulcan wing design change in the last picture.
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Another wing shape. This wing shape looks like Vulcan final wing shape.
 

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Schneiderman

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That 3-view is a 'what-if' from a modellers site...….....".I decided to keep the end kink in the wing as I feel it looks right ergo it is right!"
 

robunos

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Well that's the the thing that's always intrigued me about the Atlantic, if it HAD been built, would it have had the revised wing as fitted to the bomber ?

cheers,
Robin.
 

blackkite

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I don't know why the vulcan bomber's wings have become in a complicated shape. Wing tip stall?
I'm not studying at all.
 
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kitnut617

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When I had contacted Mike Meehan (who was on the team that produced the brochure [he drew some of the pictures]), he told me that the Atlantic would have got whatever the Vulcan ended up with for the wings, the idea being to utilize as much between the two aircraft as possible. Keep in mind the Atlantic was on the drawing boards before the first Vulcan prototype had even flown which is why the brochures always have the 'triangular' wing plan form. Unfortunately, Mike has since died so my source of information has ended.
 

robunos

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When I had contacted Mike Meehan (who was on the team that produced the brochure [he drew some of the pictures]), he told me that the Atlantic would have got whatever the Vulcan ended up with for the wings, the idea being to utilize as much between the two aircraft as possible. Keep in mind the Atlantic was on the drawing boards before the first Vulcan prototype had even flown which is why the brochures always have the 'triangular' wing plan form. Unfortunately, Mike has since died so my source of information has ended.
Thanks for that, it was indeed what I was thinking, maximum commonality between versions. What did cross my mind, however, was that if a separate production line was set up for the Atlantic version, when the bomber wing was updated, the airliner version might not be, if no problems were apparent with it . . .

cheers,
Robin.
 
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