Petrus

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At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Ship_Medium_Mk_II there is an article on an abortive Australian landing ship project. It says nothing however about the dimensions etc. of the ship as well as it contains no images.

Does anyone here know more on this project? Any info, esp. regarding the ships' specifications and pictures would be highly appreciated.

Best regards,
Piotr
 
I knew that I had seen something about this sometime ago.
Sorry it has taken a so long to locate
.
From "The Navy" magazine Australia July 1983 page 5+7
The Ships That Never Were.
by A.R.Asquith.

Quote from the article

"The heavy landing ship LSM 11 which was the forerunner to the LSH TOBRUK, is another design that, although having a well thought out design philosophy, failed to reach building stage. The LSM 11 was developed under contract by Burness Colett and partners of the UK, and was an innovative design approach to beaching a large ship in shallow beaches. The ship had an extremely shallow draft resulting in the need for quadruple screws running in fixed nozzles with multi-blade rudders behind each screw. Rather advanced and unusual for its day,nevertheless the LSM 11 joined the long list of ship designs that never were."

RIPPER
 

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Thank you for your post (the delay doesn't matter).

Does the article mention the ship's dimensions, displacement and other data?

Piotr
 
I have just found another reference to the LSM 11 in
Australian Army Watercraft
Australias Unknown Fleet
by Brian Alsop
Published by Topmill Pty Ltd
Page 65+66
Quoted from these pages
Landing Ship Medium Mark 11[LSM Mk11]
Designed in the late 60s, the LSM Mk11 was intended to replace the Second World War vintage LSMs purchased by the Army in 1959.
The ship was to have bow doors, an enclosed tank deck and special storage areas allotted for refrigerated stores, explosives and inflammable supplies. Plans for a helicopter deck on the stern were included.
Ross Gillett in Australian & NewZealand Warships Since 1946 mentions "problems involving the capabilities" of the LSM Mk11 developed when the Navy requested high speeds for convoy work and the Army a bow door [and slower speed]for beaching capabilities. In addition, the vessels design team were having trouble meeting the parameters required by the Army.
Consequently, plans for the ship were abandoned in the early 70s about the time a decision was taken that all seagoing Defence Force vessels would be Navy operated.
It is ironic that the ship ordered by the Navy to carry out the role intended for the LSM Mk11, HMAS TOBRUK,has bow doors, a beaching capability and a top speed of only 17 knots
Engines 3 x marine diesel
Speed 15 knots [proposed by Army]
20 knots [proposed by Navy]



RIPPER
 
There are quite a few inaccuracies on those two sources about the LSM Mk II particularly its requirement need and relation to HMAS Tobruk. To set the record straight here is the appropriate excerpt from Paving the Way, Volume IV: The Royal Australian Engineers 1945 to 1972 by Brig. P.J. Greville, CBE, BE. The RAE operated the Army’s watercraft fleet up until 1972 and was responsible for acquisition plan for the LSM Mk II and would have sailed them had they been built. By noteworthy coincidence this history of the RAE was written by the officer who was in charge of the Army’s small craft fleet at this time.

Paving the Way, Volume IV: The Royal Australian Engineers 1945 to 1972
Chapter 11 Movements and Transport pp 396-397

In the years after the war, particular with Australia’s commitment to PNG and later to SEATO, the Army maintained its interest in small craft. The need to move Centurion tanks dictated the Military Board decision to purchase the first two Landing Ships, Medium (LSM). The purchase of the second two LSMs was initiated by the Chairman of the Joint Planning Committee, Cdre. Alan McNicoll, who urged that Defence should sponsor the acquisition. The Defence Committee decided that Army would sponsor the acquisition of the additional LSMs.

While the LSM gave great flexibility in the deployment and support of an Australian force, there was a diminishing number of Australian owned ships suitable for military cargo and, in 1963, DTn [Director of Transport, Lt.Col. Phil Greville] put forward a proposal for Army to acquire a suitable ship for that purpose. He proposed that the ship be loaned back to the Australian National Line for use on certain prescribed tasks then not needed by Army. The Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) proposed that it be manned by RAN. Greville opposed this in a Minute to DMO&P claiming that while ever it is considered a ‘white ensign ship, trouble will be experienced getting any naval officer to understand the purpose for which the ship is wanted.

He claimed that the CNS in his letter had illustrated this when claiming that the type of ship suggested, a Mariner Class ship with between 50 and 60 officers and men could not operate in any way other than as a cargo ship. Greville agreed. He also agreed that if any amphibious capability was approved, and an assault cargo vessel (AKA) was acquired, then the CNS was correct in stating that such a ship would required 38 officers and 400 men to crew it. This claimed Greville:

“…highlights the difference in philosophy between Navy and Army. Army uses all sorts of simple cargo vessels and produces the terminal organisation to work the winches, the hatches, the stowage, etc. as well as planning the loading and discharge, operating the lighterage and shore (including beach) facilities [at the port]. It is most uneconomical to provide on board every ship this type of (terminal) organisation.”

Greville eventually proposed that a more modern ship than the Mariner be purchases, such as a Scandia at $5m. It needed far less crew and the gear was more modern. The Defence Committee sponsored a study, which found the Scandia was too big and recommended the purchase of two ships about half the size. Procrastination over the procurement of a logistic ship meant that it as never available for Vietnam. In that time it cost Army over $10m to hire MV Jeparit and some millions more to hire Bonnooroo and Harima Maru. If a ship and been brought in 1964, its cost would have been saved in the Vietnam years alone. Navy eventually got its way and built in Australia, a British Landing Ship Logistics (LSL), which it named HMAS Tobruk. This ship never met the requirements that Navy insisted upon through its resistance to the Army procuring a ship. HMAS Tobruk cost over $50m.

Recognising that the excellent LSM had a limited life, DTn set in train the long process of obtaining a replacement vessel, which he called the LSM Mk 2. He set out, with the help of Maj. J.S. Wilson to draw up a set of characteristics that included the best of the LSM and the experience of six years’ operation of the four vessels. The RAN had no experience in landing ships, nor had the Australian Ship Building Board, and he sought permission to advertise for a design contract. This was won by Dr Corlette, consultant to the British Indian Shipping Company, who was not only a naval architect but an aeronautical engineering. This was an advantage as the LSM hull exhibited many characteristics of aeroplane design. After experiencing the capabilities of the LSM, Dr Corlette declared that ‘the ship must have been the last designed by three competent professionals. Naval architect, marine engineer and electrical engineer, modern ships being too often the result of the machinations of committees’.

The LSM Mk 2 got to the stage of being model tested and costed at $2.5m, but Navy opposed the LSM Mk II on the grounds that they were larger and faster than the original ships and therefore not within the Army’s responsibilities. A decision was made then to replace the proposed LSM Mk II by eight Landing Craft Utility, to be built in Australia and renamed Landing Craft Heavy (LCH). DTn (now Lt. Col. Hallet) accepted reluctantly the decision knowing that these craft had a much lesser capability for self-deployment than the LSM and the eight LCH would carry less than four LSM. DTn intended to man the craft with eleven soldiers, with a Warrant Officer in charge of each craft.

I’ll end the excerpt there and save the sensitive from the horrific story of how Navy dismembered the Army’s coastal logistics fleet in the name of rationalisation. The LSM Mk II was to replace the four LSMs of the Army in the coastal logistics role but in the end were replaced by the eight LCH which were transferred to the Navy and later laid up or used for non-transport roles. Tobruk was to replace the Army Ship John Monash in the sealift logistics role.
 
Petrus said:
Does the article mention the ship's dimensions, displacement and other data?

Based on the helicopter on the flight deck being a UH-1H the LSM Mk 2 is 107m long overall and 101m long at the waterline.
 
Re: Ingals LPH RAN STOVL Carrier


Looking at the ships that Never Were article posted above it has a RAN drawing of the proposed Iwo Jima based STOVL carrier. We know HMS Invincible was lined up after the 1981 defence review to go to Australia to replace HMAS Melbourne till the Falklands War changed those plans.

However prior to that what was the preferred choice of the RAN to replace Melbourne, what were the proposals being considered and were their any details or artwork associated with those proposals ?. Most reference books of the period refer to Melbourne being replaced by Invincible and the subsequent cancellation, are there any books that cover the issue in a bit more detail ?


Cheers

Geoff
 
Re: Ingals LPH RAN STOVL Carrier

Thorvic said:
However prior to that what was the preferred choice of the RAN to replace Melbourne, what were the proposals being considered and were their any details or artwork associated with those proposals ?

From memory the three design options were the Sea Control Ship, the LPH and the Invincible. Invincible was rejected as being to costly (to build new, before the RN had to dispose of one) and the focus was on the LPH. Some money was spent doing detailed assessments and design activity until the Invincible came on the second hand market.

The Invincible deal was to see two payments, one around May-June 1982 and the other in 1983 with transfer in mid 1983 after both Illustrious was commissioned and Hermes finished its refit. I’ll track down some more details when it isn’t 11:30pm on a Friday night…
 
Cheers Abraham

Just i noticed the RAN artwork for the LPH in that article appears to represent quit a modification over the Iwo Jima class yet i dont recal seeing anything about it.

Geoff
 
Thorvic said:
Just i noticed the RAN artwork for the LPH in that article appears to represent quit a modification over the Iwo Jima class yet i dont recal seeing anything about it.

Before the Invincible came on the second hand market the RAN had funded Gibbs & Cox and Ingalls for rival design studies into the Sea Control Ship and a version of the LPH for probable construction in Australia as the HMAS Melbourne replacement. Ingalls had originally proposed a version of the LHA but after the RAN narrowed down their specification to a 20,000 tonne, 14 aircraft (fixed wing) type carrier they offered the LPH. The RAN required gas turbine power and at least 24 knot speed so the LPH would have been changed somewhat to meet this need.

Attached is in except in point form covering the Melbourne replacement program of the 70s and 80s (it went that long) from the RAN’s Seapower Studies Centre papers in Australian maritime affairs series “Australian Carrier Decisions” by Anthony Wright. The full paper which covers earlier decisions is online at:

http://www.navy.gov.au/w/images/PIAMA04.pdf
 

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Thanks for that Abraham.

Must admit it does appear odd that they went for an Iwo Jima based LPH converted design rather than adapt the Sea Control Ship design which appears to meet their criteria without any major changes as it was already designed for Harrier operations and powered by Gas Turbines as the Iwo Jima required some major mdifications to a design dating back to the mid 60's !.

Geoff
 
Thorvic said:
Must admit it does appear odd that they went for an Iwo Jima based LPH converted design rather than adapt the Sea Control Ship design which appears to meet their criteria without any major changes as it was already designed for Harrier operations and powered by Gas Turbines as the Iwo Jima required some major mdifications to a design dating back to the mid 60's !.

They hadn't made a downselect decision. Gibbs & Cox were offering a Sea Control Ship and Ingalls an updated verison of the Iwo Jima. Both were contracted a few million dollars to develop a design and one would have been chosen and probablly Cockatoo Island dockyard given the contract for a cost plus build. A very similar process was followed for the Collins class SSG, Anzac class FFH, Canberra class LHD and Hobart class DDG.Then along came the second hand offer of the Invincible and so ended further work along the lines of the SCS and LPH.
 

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