Arming a light attack / jet trainer (Aero L-39 Albatros) to intercept & shoot down swarms of low-cost drones

[Graugrun]

Not much details in what AAMs are being used, and even a relatively cheap AIM-9X is more expensive than a Shaheed.

We (South Africa) wouldn't bother with expensive AIM-9X - more like Mistrals and other VSRAAM types, it can carry a 20mm cannon, and properly a 30mm (with proximity fuzes), if warranted - or our new 20X42mm machine gun (only 13kg - pictured below), slaved to the electro-optical gimbal could be very effective, especially since it's small sized ammo type can be carried in very large amounts in the belly cargo area of Mwari. Alternatively it can carry some pretty powerfull jamming equipment in it's belly cargo area, or on the wings.

Laser guided 70mm FZ 275 rocket, also guided by the designation laser in the electro-optical gimbal could prove to be very effective. There's more, but you get the point..

 

[carvalho2008]

Is it fast enough to get from wherever it was loitering to where the drones are?

Does it carry sensors to guide the pilot onto the drones from a dist

Is it fast enough to get from wherever it was loitering to where the drones are?

Does it carry sensors to guide the pilot onto the drones from a distance?

We must remember that among the main requirements of the Brazilian Air Force is the interception and air patrol of drug trafficking or illegal flights from the Amazon (which is the size of Europe). In other words, intercept aircraft with flying speeds between 200km/h and 550km/h. In this way, it has a cockpit and displays to act integrated into the vectoring not only on the ground, but integrated into the AEW E-99, receiving and switching mission and visualizing and emulating the rafar signals on its display in the cockpit.

It also organically features the FLIR starfire below and just behind the engine, which automatically tracks targets. It is already an integrated aircraft for operating laser-guided weapons and even NGV. Wanting to improve the already installed Starfire version, it will receive an air and land designation pod just like the F16 in the example I gave. These pods can even replace radars. However, there is also a huge range of radar pods on the market. The cockpit is already designed for this plug and play integration.

As for speed, note that this type of mission is not about advanced positioning within the enemy, but just the opposite, rearguard positioning in the internal defense area of the most probable and critical points. In this position, the plane operates within the area of the internal cone where enemy ammunition and invasions funnel to reach the objective. I even believe that it is possible to develop a capability against cruise missiles given this type of mission and positioning of aircraft.

 

[carvalho2008]

http://sistemasdearmas.com.br/ca/p29.htmlVery interesting link

 

[carvalho2008]

Embraer Super Tucano

 

[Scott Kenny]

http://sistemasdearmas.com.br/ca/p29.htmlVery interesting link

Maritime Patrol Super Tucano?

That's a very odd idea, definitely thinking outside the box.

I think one of the issues would be the inability to drop a rescue boat like the larger patrol planes can, as that's one of the major missions for MPA in peacetime.

 

[carvalho2008]

Maritime Patrol Super Tucano?

That's a very odd idea, definitely thinking outside the box.

I think one of the issues would be the inability to drop a rescue boat like the larger patrol planes can, as that's one of the major missions for MPA in peacetime.

Micro MPA.... I think very interesting....rzrzrz...why not?rzrzrz...very, very low cost...

 

[carvalho2008]

Maritime Patrol Super Tucano?

That's a very odd idea, definitely thinking outside the box.

I think one of the issues would be the inability to drop a rescue boat like the larger patrol planes can, as that's one of the major missions for MPA in peacetime.

Rescue boat like this?

 

[Scott Kenny]

Rescue boat like this?

Yes. Those are surprisingly heavy things, something like 2000lbs.

 

[carvalho2008]

Yes. Those are surprisingly heavy things, something like 2000lbs.

Are you sure? it's seems very small....

 

[Scott Kenny]

Are you sure? it's seems very small....

Like I said, surprisingly heavy.

 

[TomS]

Like I said, surprisingly heavy.

Those Uni-pac kits are only a couple hundred pounds. They do come with pretty stringent IAS limits though. Like 110 knots or so, unless they're in a bomb bay like the one in the photo above.

https://pbrproductions.com/safe2020/client_booths/lsi/products/unipacii.pdf
That said, I have seen ones designed for higher speed external carriage, but I'm not sure how heavy they are.

 

[carvalho2008]

Yes. Those are surprisingly heavy things, something like 2000lbs.

This one in the image is SUR 3816-00.

It only weighs 110 lbs and accommodates 8 people (but the manufacturer informs that up to 13 people have been reported and documented)

https://pbrproductions.com/safe2020/client_booths/lsi/products/unipacii.pdf

 

[carvalho2008]

https://lifesupportintl.com/products/sur-0200-00

 

[Scott Kenny]

This one in the image is SUR 3816-00.

It only weighs 110 lbs and accommodates 8 people (but the manufacturer informs that up to 13 people have been reported and documented)

https://pbrproductions.com/safe2020/client_booths/lsi/products/unipacii.pdf

Huh. That's a much lighter package than I've seen before...

 

[carvalho2008]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usd0Uouj6XA

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtqP16xZlns&t=3s

 

[Archibald]

A light helicopter will do. Strap a small, modern radar on something like OH-58, several pairs of MANPADS, and go drone hunting.
A similar outfit on a turboprop trainer will also do. Even the tiny airforces have these trainers.

Fennec MASA - the Armée de l'Air solution to kill slow targets. It doesn't carry a gun but a sharpshooter with a gun.

https://mesure-active-de-surete-aerienne-31.webself.net/accueil

 

[carvalho2008]

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/32519-meet-mf-212-a-strange-belarusian-prop-fighter-with-missiles

 

[Scott Kenny]

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/32519-meet-mf-212-a-strange-belarusian-prop-fighter-with-missiles

Even if real, that's a particularly poor design. Only has enough capacity to lift 2x AAMs.

They'd be much better off using something like a PC12, Super Tucano, or other PT6 powered turboprop, so they actually have a good lift capacity. As aesthically unpleasant as cropdusters are, the Ag Cat version that won the SOCOM Armed Overwatch is probably ideal for the job. 2klbs of sensors, 6klbs of ordnance, and a pretty good fuel capacity.

 

[carvalho2008]

Even if real, that's a particularly poor design. Only has enough capacity to lift 2x AAMs.

They'd be much better off using something like a PC12, Super Tucano, or other PT6 powered turboprop, so they actually have a good lift capacity. As aesthically unpleasant as cropdusters are, the Ag Cat version that won the SOCOM Armed Overwatch is probably ideal for the job. 2klbs of sensors, 6klbs of ordnance, and a pretty good fuel capacity.

I agree...

 

[tomo pauk]

Fennec MASA - the Armée de l'Air solution to kill slow targets. It doesn't carry a gun but a sharpshooter with a gun.

https://mesure-active-de-surete-aerienne-31.webself.net/accueil

We'd probably want something that can tackle fast targets, since that will also be able to taskle slow targets. AA missiles all the way (French have loads of Mistrales in stocks), and an autocannon probably; sniper against aerial targets does not have a lot of appeal IMO, unless these are cooperative - big enough and very slow.

 

[F.L.]

I am very surprised after having discovered the MF-212 armed with R-60s !!!
I understood that the MF-212 belongs to the ultralight category ? So really less than 500kg ?

 

[aonestudio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1781670775994405220

View: https://twitter.com/Lithuanian_MoD/status/1781670775994405220

 

[AE220]

Who needs a L-39? https://censor.net/en/video_news/34...sian_reconnaissance_drone_in_the_odesa_region

 

[helmutkohl]

https://www.janes.com/defence-intel.../aero-vodochody-showcases-skyfox-drone-hunter

Well, Aero Vodochody has a L39 variant for drone hunting now

 

[Scott Kenny]

Can't you just use something much cheaper and handy for hunting dumb swarms instead of jet on a verge of stall speeds? Like Hind for example.

That would mean that you just speed up the dumb swarms until helos can't keep up. 200-300 knots.

Something like a PC9, Super Tucano, or Ag Cat/Skyraider II

 

[Apophenia]

That would mean that you just speed up the dumb swarms until helos can't keep up. 200-300 knots.

Something like a PC9, Super Tucano, or Ag Cat/Skyraider II

But consider the jet-powered Geran-5 drone. If low-level Geran-5s travel at 450 to 600 km/h, drone-hunting 'interceptors' with substantially lower speeds don't make much sense.

The Skyraider II's low-level top speed is given as 333 km/h - and that is clean! The A-29's low-level speed is 460 km/h (probably without payload). That leaves the PC-9 (low level 500 km/h) as the only viable candidate on your list. However, countering the PC-9 just requires RU to run their Geran-5s at the higher speeds.

By contrast, top speed the the Aero L-39C at low altitude does 700 km/h. That said, some source do claim potential 700 km/h top speeds for Geran-5. If true, even the jet-powered Albatros may end up being too slow for the planned mission.

 

[Scott Kenny]

By contrast, top speed the the Aero L-39C at low altitude does 700 km/h. That said, some source do claim potential 700 km/h top speeds for Geran-5. If true, even the jet-powered Albatros may end up being too slow for the planned mission.

Exactly. So that's pretty annoying, you're stuck with sonic or supersonic LIFTs being the aircraft needed.

 

[Ainen]

Exactly. So that's pretty annoying, you're stuck with sonic or supersonic LIFTs being the aircraft needed.

I'd rather say you need a Lo fighter - manned fighter - designed around this capability set. It's certainly worth it; "small drones" can easily disassemble your economy, they can pin down your army, and do many more nasty things.

And it must be supersonic. If your fighter can barely keep up with the intercepted target in a tail chase, this is a joke, not an interceptor.

 

[flateric]

That would mean that you just speed up the dumb swarms until helos can't keep up. 200-300 knots.

You know, many things have changed since this 2022 post...

 

[Scott Kenny]

You know, many things have changed since this 2022 post...

Countermeasure of increasing speed of swarms still applies.

especially since RC modelers have been doing glow-engine-powered ducted fans for 30-odd years.

I'd rather say you need a Lo fighter - manned fighter - designed around this capability set. It's certainly worth it; "small drones" can easily disassemble your economy, they can pin down your army, and do many more nasty things.

And it must be supersonic. If your fighter can barely keep up with the intercepted target in a tail chase, this is a joke, not an interceptor.

Admittedly, a sonic (800kph+) OWA/kamikaze drone is not cheap.

 

[Wotan]

Thanks. Here's the data I misquoted.

• L-39ZA weights and outputs are given for the following configuration:
  
  • one pilot
  • installed GŠ-23 cannon with cartridges
  • 2 suspended bombs of 100 kg each
  • 2 additional tanks of 350 liters each

Which was just one example out of many possible configurations carrying heavier loads.

So I will quote it in full for future reference.

View attachment 686698

View attachment 686699

My question "what do you do after your sortie runs out of missiles carried and there are drones still flying or what do you do if the country runs out of money to buy more missiles?" remains?

I think aircraft with machine guns is the cost-effective solution for shooting down slow, cheap drones - though limited to certain places only - well away from the front line and Russian air defences - and steering clear of Ukraine's own active ground-to-air defences.

The czech industry has created the PL-20 Plamen aircraft cannon pod, which is basically a GSH-23 cannon adapted to fire the NATO 20x102mm round. 210 rounds capacity.
http://www.zvi.cz/en/products/20-mm-gun-pod-plamen.html

It was integrated on the L-159 ALCA light attack aircraft, itself derived from the L-39 Albatros.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1dtjQ849JI


Smaller round than the 23mm round of the GSH-23, lighter recoil, less fumes by firing, reducing the risk of gas ingestion.
You can have a L-39 armed with both a cannon and 4 AA missiles.

 

[Ainen]

You can have a L-39 armed with both a cannon and 4 AA missiles.

Better not. Just about the only advantage to the L-39 platform now is access to modern Western weapons (APKWS specifically).
Otherwise, for just about any other use, it's just a badly overpriced and outdated aircraft.

 

[Wotan]

I was thinking specifically the use of the aircraft for hunting drones. A faster fighter jet is more limited in it`s options because the drones fly bellow a fighter stall speed. A straight wing trainer has a slower stall speed and can fly at the drone`s speed. Than you can have options: APKWS and the cannon as a back-up option.

 

[Wotan]

The L-39NG Skyfox is considered as a very cost effective anti-drone platform by analists.
https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-re...ato-multinational-drone-interception-squadron

"The final, and perhaps most compelling, available option is the Aero L-39NG. This aircraft is significantly cheaper to operate than other advanced jet trainers, with comparable operating costs to turboprop trainers like the PC-9. It is smaller, lighter and less powerful than the M-346 and FA-50, but it can still easily reach 300 kts at medium altitude in level flight with external stores. The author had no difficulty intercepting multiple simulated Geran-4 class targets flying at up to 270 kts at medium altitude and 220 kts at low altitude with it during an evaluation sortie in August 2026. The L-39NG also has docile low-speed handling characteristics down to below 100 kts, so could intercept slow-flying Geran-2 and Gerbera drones with low-overtake velocities and higher safety margins when context allowed."

 

[riggerrob]

The Aero L-39 Albatros light attack variant, L-39-ZA, needs a modification so that it can intercept and shoot down swarms of low-cost drones, like the Shahed-136, which flies at 185 km/h, aiming most carefully by flying at the same speed as the drones while firing its 23mm cannon, which it can do because its stall speed with flaps extended is 158 km/h to 163km/h


L-39 Albatros Pilot Report, by Buck Wyndham, L-39 Instructor Pilot


L-39 Albatros Trainer / Ground Attack Aircraft

But -


quote from The L-39 website, mostly in Czech, so google-translated into English.

So if I add custom "muzzle brakes" to the twin gun 23m calibre barrels, ejecting the gunshot fumes downwards, that should solve the risk of fumes being sucked into the air intake, allow the automatic block on firing to be safely disengaged, the L-39-ZA to fly slow and shoot at the same time.
View attachment 686491

View attachment 686522

OK, that's the easy part of the design project. What I also want to do is to design an upgrade for L-39 jet trainers to turn them into a ideal, purpose-designed drone hunter-killer aircraft.

View attachment 686490

The L-39-ZA light attack variant's 23mm cannon only carries 150 rounds limiting the number of drones that can be shot down in one sortie but to increase the number of rounds without increasing the weight of ammunition you'd have to use a smaller calibre machine gun and ammunition.

12.7mm or .50 inch calibre is what most American fighters used in their mostly subsonic dogfights in WW2 so I'm sure that that smaller calibre is plenty powerful enough for range and damage against a slow-flying drone. The 23mm cannon is better for ground strafing but I think it is overkill for shooting down drones. So I'm recommending the .50 Caliber Gatling Gun from General Dynamics, Ordnance and Tactical Systems with 500+ rounds of ammunition and I think I am good for weight.

In this case, to avoid gun fumes being sucked into the jet engine, a muzzle break couldn't be so easily directed to exhaust only downwards because the barrels in a Gatling gun are rotating so the solution I propose is to angle the whole gun downwards at 30 degrees as is routinely done by the SPPU-22 pods, which are used for other aircraft using the same 23mm cannon as is used in the L-39-ZA for the purposes of strafing ground targets.

View attachment 686398

View attachment 686399

So then you'd need to attach a camera to the gun-sights & fix the gun at a downward angle of ~30° as per the SPPU-22, with multiple advantages -

avoids sucking gun fumes into the engine at low speed
firing down makes the drones a bigger target
both L-39 pilots can be gunners

OK, well I don't do this kind of thing for a living so if there are any professionals or gifted amateurs out there who want to review my design and offer a few pointers, please do.

Catch up with me on Twitter where I am @SCondista.

Shifting to hanging gun pods from bomb shackles will solve two problems with the initial suggestions.
First, it will vent muzzle blast below engine intakes and too far aft for them to be ingested by engines.
Secondly, hanging guns from bomb pylons will solve a balance problem caused by depleting ammunition. IOW if the ammunition magazine is close to the center-of-gravity, then balance will not change as you fire off ammunition.