Antonov Istrebitel jet fighter project

Vietcong

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I think that the Antonov Istrebitel was actual project.It also called Antonov Skh.The design begun in post WW2 based on He 162 Salamader but his design never went beyond windtunnel model.Is anyone have 3views model of the aircraft,I really need it.
 

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redstar72

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Yes, it was an actual design projected by Antonov in 1947. It was a light interceptor with RD-10 engine (Jumo 004 copy); Antonov designed it without official task - for his own initiative. An interesting distinctive feature of it were car-type cockpit doors (like those on the P-39 Airacobra). The project is sometimes mentioned as Antonov Salamandra - analogically to He 162's name. Some more info here: http://avicopress.ru/plane.php?id=375.

But it isn't Antonov SKh. The SKh (also SKh-1 or SKh-A, rus. СХ) was no more than An-2 prototype. "SKh" means Selskokhozyaistvennyi (Сельскохозяйственный) - "agricultural".
 

ucon

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Dear Zizi!
You have registered in Avico Press site.
zizi6785 Csomb Zolt ipod@mymac.hu Да Пользователь 89.132.144.205

Check up your access.
Regards, Ucon
 

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See also

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Zizi6785

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ucon said:
Dear Zizi!
You have registered in Avico Press site.
zizi6785 Csomb Zolt ipod@mymac.hu Да Пользователь 89.132.144.205

Check up your access.
Regards, Ucon

Yes, i get access, thank you for Ucon! :D
 

borovik

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OKB-153 (1946-1952 Antonov OKB)

Project 1947 with the designation (within the design bureau) "Salamandra", "I".
The frontline interceptor, безаэродромного базирования so-called no airfields.
Armament: 3 x NS 23 or
2 x NS 23, 1 x NS 37

Project 1947 with the symbol 'M' (Masha)
See please here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,945.0html
Project 1952 - supersonic interceptor with a rhomboid / diamond-shaped wing-type RK-5 by
S. Khristianovich.
Engine AL-7F
Armament: 3 x Sh-30.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Great three-view artwork! I find it funny that the side view of the Russian Salamander's cockpit looks exactly like that of the Bell Airacobra...
 

redstar72

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As for me, this design has only basic layout similar to He 162, while the construction details have a lot of differences. The Antonov fighter is mid-wing (while the He 162 is high-wing), the wing itself is longer and has totally different shape (straight trailing edge, instead Heinkel's straight leading edge); main landing gear is retracted into the wing (He 162 - into fuselage), etc. Actually, its resemblance to He 162 isn't closer than of Henschel Hs 132 or Arado E580.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Too small!

Original picture on Wikimedia is much higher quality:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Tumansky_RD-10.jpg
 

Vietcong

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Re: Antonov Istrebitel jet fighter projected armaments

Here are the pics of the projected armaments for this aircraft.
 

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redstar72

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I made a comparison in the same scale.
Now you can see how different they are...
 

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airman

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borovik said:
OKB-153 (1946-1952 Antonov OKB)

Project 1947 with the designation (within the design bureau) "Salamandra", "I".
The frontline interceptor, безаэродромного базирования so-called no airfields.
Armament: 3 x NS 23 or
2 x NS 23, 1 x NS 37

Project 1947 with the symbol 'M' (Masha)
See please here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,945.0html
Project 1952 - supersonic interceptor with a rhomboid / diamond-shaped wing-type RK-5 by
S. Khristianovich.
Engine AL-7F
Armament: 3 x Sh-30.
The Antonov Salamandra was a little inspired by He-162 : just a little ! :D
 

redstar72

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airman said:
The Antonov Salamandra was a little inspired by He-162 : just a little ! :D

Sorry for my poor English... maybe I didn't understand you correctly. Are you saying this with irony?

If so, then I don't agree - they're actually different very much, as you can see at my pictures above. If somebody consider this "An" to be a 162 copy, then F-15 is a MiG-25 copy ;).
 

Antonio

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I agree with you Redstar. I'm a bit bored with that repetitive comments about every Soviet/Russian aircraft has to be a copy of an existing design. It's a very poor understanding of both aerospace technology and history.
 

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pometablava said:
I'm a bit bored with that repetitive comments about every Soviet/Russian aircraft has to be a copy of an existing design.

Totally agree ! It's a bit like people still believing that the Polikarpov I-15 and the Tupolev SB were copies of the Curtiss fighter and Martin bombers designs. Russian/Soviet designers have produced a great number of original designs over the years.

Regards Bailey.
 

Stargazer2006

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Comparing both plans makes it clear that we have two VERY different designs here. Whether there was some inspiration, I couldn't say, but if there was, clearly it was only inasmuch as the general configuration was concerned: twin-tail and top-mounted engine, period!!!
 

borovik

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Gentlemen, have a lot to say on this subject, but I still pop in to let my five kopecks /cents ...
With regard to copying and repetition
- The doors of the type "Airacobra" ... ,
This aircraft was much loved by pilots of the Soviet Air Force/VVS/, in particular for the uncharacteristic for the Soviet aircraft design convenience of the pilot. I agree that the Antonov (as, indeed, and V.Belyaev projects EOI, I-370, OI-2) used this constructive element of conscious, why reinvent the wheel. ))
- Top-mounted engine ...
chosen O.K.Antonov solely from rational motives
quotes on materials from the archives of ANTK. O. Antonova (via A. Sovenko, V. Zayarin)
practically the same info here: http://avicopress.ru/plane.php?id=375 (via B. Zayarin, K. Udalov)

"... Then good jet engines did not exist. Was captured engine "JUMO" (German Jumo 004, which in the former Soviet mass production under the designation of RD-10 thrust 840 kgf). Therefore, to reduce loss of traction, we did a project with top of the engine.
Interceptor with basing directly from the front lines with the ground off-runway landing. In these circumstances, the direct wing provided better takeoff and landing performance, the fuselage prevented entrainment in the intake of the soil particles, small items from the surface of the runway, and the location of the engine nacelle minimizing the length of the air channels and, consequently, loss of traction. "
 

Zizi6785

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redstar72 said:
I made a comparison in the same scale.
Now you can see how different they are...

The same with I-270 Ju-248
 

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Stargazer2006

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Yep, not much in common... I think this exaggeration about Soviet Union copying every Western designs stems from the Tu-4 story. It was such a faithful replica of the B-29 that it probably gave the impression that the Soviets were all about swiping Western designers.

Now as to the fact that German Luftwaffe designs may have influenced other countries, let's have no doubt about it: plans and technical data, not to mention prototypes, were found by the Allies and shared, engineers were offered to cooperate (or else to be tried for their dubious allegiance), so undoubtedly there WAS an influence of German designs on the way other countries (most prominently the USA and the USSR) conceived their post-war aircraft. I have no problem with that, the Boeing 707 (or rather the 367-80 prototype) was a direct adaptation of Junkers research (on their Ju 352 I think), and every swept-wing design owes to German research (if only because it saved the Allies years of prototyping and research of their own). The Messerschmitt P.1101 became the basis for the X-5, which paved the way for variable-sweep designs. All the NACA/NASA research that resulted benefitted the international community in turn.

All of this to say that finding inspiration in others is not the same as copying... and most of the time it is the former, not the latter.
 

airman

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redstar72 said:
I made a comparison in the same scale.
Now you can see how different they are...
yes, i different, but surely, after WWII , soviets had chance to see Heinkel 162 and other planes and projects, and elaborate from these a similar projects !
German jet planes, engines and projects was very useful for URSS .
 

Antonio

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yes, i different, but surely, after WWII , soviets had chance to see Heinkel 162 and other planes and projects, and elaborate from these a similar projects !
German jet planes, engines and projects was very useful for URSS .

Sure. And not only the Soviet Union, you can find bits of German III Reich aerospace research on the US, English and French designs after WWII. But then one can't think that every World aircraft after WWII is a copy of an existing III Reich design. That's a simplistic approach to me. In fact is far from reality.
 

redstar72

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Zizi6785 said:
The same with I-270 Ju-248

Thanks Zizi! Recently we discussed these two at Russian modelling forum: http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_18648.html. I made a comparative analysis of them - there is NOTHING common at all! Generally, this example is "something" - the basic aerodynamic configuration of the two aircrafts is totally different, but some people believe that one is a copy of the other... All "resemblance" between them is slightly similar fuselage shape! But what logical reason would be to copy a fuselage, while all the rest is original?.. Moreover - the fuselage is also different: in length, diameter, and even in shape... So, what's common?
???
I add some "overlapping" comparisons made by myself. And I also must add: there are no documents verifying that Ju 248 or Me 263 ever was captured by the Soviets! Me 262, 163, He 162, Ar 234, He 280, uncompleted EF 126 and EF 131, some parts for He 343 bomber - yes, we possessed them all. But any mentions of proclaimed "I-270 prototype"! So, I think, this question can be closed.

airman said:
yes, i different, but surely, after WWII , soviets had chance to see Heinkel 162 and other planes and projects, and elaborate from these a similar projects !
German jet planes, engines and projects was very useful for URSS .

Yes of course, we had He 162 in our hands and studied it carefully. In fact, we possessed even 7 (seven) aircrafts of this type - though only one was flyable. But it wasn't such a masterpiece to copy it: rather this resemblance became fatal for Antonov fighter. The matter is that He 162 was tested in LII by renowned test pilot Georgy Shiyanov, but after only 3 flights (the first was at May 8, 1946) the tests were stopped. The jet Heinkel was very unstable in flight, with poor handling qualities, and needed very long takeoff run (1350 meters). In a word, it was more dangerous for its own pilot then for enemy. Analysis of German documents only confirmed this conclusion. Therefore the VVS and Air Ministry authorities didn't support a similar-looking proposition by Antonov... and the "I" project was never realized.
 

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Stargazer2006

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As usual, redstar, you provide the most detailed and relevant post of the topic. Thanks for that!
 

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