Anti-drone technologies and tactics

Brett Davidson said:
The "Wake-Up Call": Lawmakers have pointed to the A-10's success in Operation Epic Fury as a "wake-up call." They argue that until a viable, low-cost replacement for the CAS and counter-drone missions exists, retiring the Warthog would create an "unacceptable capability gap."
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Perhaps a new replacement for such a role would be to take the A-10 Thunderbolt II design and give it a 21st century update and produce it, call it the A-10D Thunderbolt III.
 
Following my post above, drone warfare is economic warfare, and bullets and lasers are cheaper than missiles. What system would succeed a 'Sea Hog'? It needn't be one platform but a system.

So, criteria for a replacement? I suggest:

NOT 'exquisite'! Cheap and numerous, not silver bullets. No overkill but weapons scaled in cost and impact to targets

Rapid deployability in austere environments, operable by lowest common denominator crew

Long loiter, or continuous presence in anticipation of, not reaction, to threat. Therefore able to deploy, wait, and turn to action in an instant

Able to deal with waves of targets - literally hundreds in short periods. Solvable by deep, inexpensive and immediately replenishable energy and ammunition reserves in numerous 'cheap' platforms or overall system. Large numbers - attributable, therefore low unit cost

Real time situational awareness from fusion of sources. Continuous surveillance is quickly deployable, and backed up by intelligence - the latter is often forgotten, but shouldn't be. This means coordination across agencies

Use of orbital or high altitude assets for battlefield surveillance and communication with attributable aerostats or 'Hi Elon, we're requisitioning your satellites. That's the price of doing business.' Actually, the latter is not so feasible when the boundaries between war and peace are so blurred. Drone use shades into 'hybrid war.'
 
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Brett Davidson said:
Following my post above, drone warfare is economic warfare, and bullets and lasers are cheaper than missiles. What system would succeed a 'Sea Hog'? It needn't be one platform but a system.

So, criteria for a replacement? I suggest:

NOT 'exquisite'! Cheap and numerous, not silver bullets. No overkill but weapons scaled in cost and impact to targets

Rapid deployability in austere environments, operable by lowest common denominator crew

Long loiter, or continuous presence in anticipation of, not reaction, to threat. Therefore able to deploy, wait, and turn to action in an instant

Able to deal with waves of targets - literally hundreds in short periods. Solvable by deep, inexpensive and immediately replenishable energy and ammunition reserves in numerous 'cheap' platforms or overall system. Large numbers - attributable, therefore low unit cost
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It won't be exquisite in terms of being a high end aircraft (no supersonic speed and maybe not even a radar on the main plane), but it will be bespoke for the job.

Austere bases and long loiter time are not things that many manned planes have right now. But this may be "revenge of the LIFTs", because the M346 can carry a Sniper pod, 2x Sidewinders or AMRAAMs, 14x APKWS, a gun pod, and one fuel tank, with ~3:15 or so of loiter time.
 
Scott Kenny said:
It won't be exquisite in terms of being a high end aircraft (no supersonic speed and maybe not even a radar on the main plane), but it will be bespoke for the job.

Austere bases and long loiter time are not things that many manned planes have right now. But this may be "revenge of the LIFTs", because the M346 can carry a Sniper pod, 2x Sidewinders or AMRAAMs, 14x APKWS, a gun pod, and one fuel tank, with ~3:15 or so of loiter time.
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Aermacchi M346 apparently has a 20mm gun. Would "PELE Ammunition" from Rheinmetal be a cheap alternative to normal proximity fused on this calibre? Stall speed aeems to be slow enough to use guns against drones.
 
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Brett Davidson said:
Littoral Guardian: On February 2, 2026, A-10s were officially integrated into training exercises with the littoral combat ship USS Santa Barbara in the Arabian Gulf. Their mission? To provide a persistent "shield" against the small-boat swarms and one-way attack drones that threaten these relatively light warships.
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So the LCS, designed to counter IRGC-N FIAC Swarms, needs protecting from IRGC-N FIAC swarms? *Headdesk*
Brett Davidson said:
the A-10’s legendary 1,200-pound titanium "bathtub" and redundant flight systems provide a level of survivability against small-arms and anti-aircraft fire that "thin-skinned" multirole jets cannot match.
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The A-10 may have a half-tonne bathtub, but it is far from the only aircraft with redundant flight systems, in fact the difficulty is finding one that doesn't feature multiply redundant systems.
 
DWG said:
So the LCS, designed to counter IRGC-N FIAC Swarms, needs protecting from IRGC-N FIAC swarms? *Headdesk*

The A-10 may have a half-tonne bathtub, but it is far from the only aircraft with redundant flight systems, in fact the difficulty is finding one that doesn't feature multiply redundant systems.
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Most aircraft with redundant FCS have redundant computers, not multiple separate actuators.
 
DWG said:
The baseline APKWS guidance section is compatible with Forges de Zeebrugge rockets, having being trialled back in 2015, and if it fits, FALCO probably does as well. So Belgium has multiple options here.
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A question on the FZ275 LGR SAL mentioned earlier: Does it have a proximity fuse? (The standard FZ275 LGR has an impact fuse - not ideal for anti-drone work.) OTOH, the Australian Army has fitted APKWS to FZ rocket bodies since 2014.

Anyway, the US may have chosen to fit APKWS to Hydra 70 rockets but any NATO 70 mm rocket body should accommodate it - Euro-GATR, CRV7, Roketsan Cirit, etc.
 
Apophenia said:
A question on the FZ275 LGR SAL mentioned earlier: Does it have a proximity fuse? (The standard FZ275 LGR has an impact fuse - not ideal for anti-drone work.) OTOH, the Australian Army has fitted APKWS to FZ rocket bodies since 2014.

Anyway, the US may have chosen to fit APKWS to Hydra 70 rockets but any NATO 70 mm rocket body should accommodate it - Euro-GATR, CRV7, Roketsan Cirit, etc.
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Well, the basic Hydra rocket layout has the fuze and warhead at the front of the rocket, with guidance installed amidships. And there are both timed (M433 and M439**) and proximity fuze (M429) in production.

** M433 is a nose-mounted fuze for unitary warheads, M439 is base-mounted for cargo warheads.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Well, the basic Hydra rocket layout has the fuze and warhead at the front of the rocket, with guidance installed amidships.
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That's for the APKWS I, the APKWS II has a terminal IIR seeker so necessitating a different layout.
 
It´s time for drone kills to start to be accounted as kills. When you see a fighter jet hugging terrain at a sensible speed to catch-up with intercept geometry and time interval before the thing he/she is chasing is in range to kill someone on the ground, man can doubt of the alleged lack of combat valor shooting what people still see as a stupid flying machines. Heck, shooting down V-1 was already a challenging task that put aviators at tremendous risks and where flyer talents were a prerequisite to success.

It´s time to turn the page and come back to our senses. Shooting down drones is going to be increasingly difficult and pilot's hunting skills are going to be even more needed. Let´s reward the score. Let´s incentive the tremendous risks, dedication and commitment.

***********

On another note, the Navy is showing the way with a call for buck shots for standard Army/Navy riffles:

In the announcement, Brian Hoffman, chief engineer of NSWC Crane’s Man-Portable Weapons, explained that the ammo works much like a shotshell in that it disperses a cluster of projectiles, but it’s designed to be fired from a service rifle or machine gun instead of a shotgun.
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www.yahoo.com

The US Navy wants you ... to make ‘Drone Killer’ ammunition

The Navy designed the Drone Killer Cartridge to address the emerging threat of small quadcopters. It now wants ammo makers to make millions of the rounds.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
 
TomcatViP said:
On another note, the Navy is showing the way with a call for buck shots for standard Army/Navy riffles:


www.yahoo.com

The US Navy wants you ... to make ‘Drone Killer’ ammunition

The Navy designed the Drone Killer Cartridge to address the emerging threat of small quadcopters. It now wants ammo makers to make millions of the rounds.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
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They should talk to the Ukrainians as IIRC they've already developed an anti-drone round for their assault-rifles.
 
NMaude said:
They should talk to the Ukrainians as IIRC they've already developed an anti-drone round for their assault-rifles.
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And machine guns.

Mr.T said:
495571350-990329196606983-3467294753221647766-n.jpg
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Triplex ammo in both cases.

I still need to email the company and see if I can get a cut-away of each.
 
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NMaude said:
Given that the LUKAS is basically a modified US clone of the Shaheed that wreckage is far too small to be the real thing.
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They’re reverse engineered versions, but they’re not clones. LUKAS has like 1/3 the range so it wouldn’t be surprising if it was smaller as well.

Now a dude shooting down 5 of them with their ‘ancestral hunting rifle’ seems very far fetched.

Edit
Smaller but not massively smaller

dsm.forecastinternational.com

LUCAS: Scaling the Drone War - Defense Security Monitor

U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM) has officially activated Task Force Scorpion Strike (TFSS), the military’s first dedicated one-way kamikaze drone squadron in the Middle East. This milestone was punctuated on December 16th, when the U.S. Navy successfully launched a Low-Cost Uncrewed Combat Attack...
dsm.forecastinternational.com dsm.forecastinternational.com
 
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It looked like missile , if there was an interceptor drone involved it missed at 0:09 (maybe that was a bird)
 
Forest Green said:
What they maybe need is a drone that loiters and homes in on drone control emissions.
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Shahed-136 and other OWAs typically don't emit anything. Neither do fiber optic FPVs

IMO, the ideal solution is MALE UCAVs like MQ-9 carrying battery electric interceptors similar to Sting. Build a multi-channel autonomous interceptor drone controller into the UCAV; it will perform the task that Ukraine currently uses human Sting operators for, and the interceptor drones can stay cheap with basic electronics on board while the more expensive AI machine vision system is on the UCAV where it doesn't get expended per shot.
 
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