Aeromarine Projects and Prototypes

[memaerobilia]

According to a report by BVKK, written in 1924, while the EO was STILL undergoing further testing...

The Aeromarine EO was built "FOR" Earl D. Osborn, and not "BY" him. He wanted to replace his Aeromarine Model 44, with a safer plane, with a smaller, more economical engine, and less troublesome in mainenance.

The proposal for the general layout was submitted to Osborn, for approval, on Jan 26, 1924 (by BVKK??? who was then "Engineer in Cheif of Airplane Design" for Aeromarine Plane and Motor Co.)

The first test flight was conducted June 28, 1924, with Osborn as the test pilot. He had been closely conneced with the development of Aeromarine Airways, and had "witnessed" the development of the Aeromarine AMC, the first US flying boat with an all metal hull.
Test results were very good, for the EO with all kinds of notatations as to its important features, in flight characteristics and design successes.

I "had' all the many long, fascinating letters between Osborn and BVKK where they discussed Osborn's interests and requests for various aircraft designs, followed by detailed discussions of possible sport, and military designs that would be commercially viable, and their eventual partnership, where Osbne and BVKK formed the EDO Corp. (and dates)BVKK set everything up, and was Cheif Designer at EDO.
Getting dark in library so more, tomorrow

 

[memaerobilia]

Note for Dynoman:
The TWO ENGINE version (tractor and pusher Anzani engines in tandem) is clearly labeled as the "Model B" in the 1925 Original Edo blueprint. I did not have the dwg for the single tractor engine (Malolo or?) So would only be speculating if it was Model A?

Interesting design notes of the Aeromarine EO, from BVKK

The engine was an Anzani 6.A.3. *but the 5/32" inch thick metal firewall at front of the nacelle was designed to also accept a Wright L-4, or surprisingly! an 80 hp LeRhone rotary or a Clerget rotary..
The lower wing had only one box spar of spruce and plywood.
The engine mounting nacelle was self contained unit with the gas and oil tanks, and insured saftey against crushing cockpit and occupants, and from fuel leakage fires.
Hull constructed from aluminum alloy sheets and stampings, as per the Aeromarine AMC of the previous year
The seating and controls were arranged to prevent interference from either of the two passengers.
Struts were streamline steel tubing, to do away with wood struts with balsa fairings
Upper wing was Aeromarine No. 2b
Lower wing was Aeromarine No. 6
Wing tip float were 17S alloy metal, with leak free construction, that weighed only 7.5 lbs each

In testing
From start of full throttle...
It came on the step in 4-5 seconds
It took off in 15 seconds, with light load, and-20 seconds,with two passengers @ 1390 rpm (which rated the Anzani at approx 72.5 hp at that rpm)
High speed was 73.5 mph and
minimum speed was 40 mph with tach at 1010 rpn

 

[memaerobilia]

Note;
The correct spelling is Earl D (dodge) Osborn, with no e on end of Earl or Osborn. I have mispelled it many times myself, after constantly seeing mis-spelledreferences in such places as aerofiles..
Mr. Osborn was also Editor and Publisher of AVIATION magazine from 1924-1929, and was very influential and knowledgeable in aviation.

 

[memaerobilia]

One of the few BvKK photos I can find!
I NOW recall, that before sending off the two foot high pile of correspondence between Osborn and BvKK, and the Edo and Aeromarine historic documents etc, I DID make a copy (NOT a SCAN) of most of the letters and photos. I am trying to remember WHERE I might have put them, years ago. There is no question that they are STILL HERE, somewhere!? They are probably in one of the 400 "Misc." storage boxes, (as they do NOT seem to be in any of the filing cabinets) They are NOT in any stored computer files/scans, that I can recall or find??? I remember having made copies of him at the factories, and all the letters with various early dates, before/during/and after the formation of EDO.

But for now..
here is a great old photo from BVKK, keeping in mind that it is Probably EDO, but could (less likely) have been from his days as Cheif Designer for Aeromarine. You may feel free to guess the plane, but I do not know/recall the ID for this fuselage

 

[Dynoman]

Great find Memaerobilia!!! That is the Curtiss-Courtney CA-1 Curtiss Commuter. Its a 1935 design that only resulted in three airframes. The fuselage was contracted by Courtney to EDO who built the metal fuselage. The wings were fashioned from wood. The aircraft flew well enough, but the design was too antiquated for military use. The three aircraft were sold to the Japanese!

 

[Dynoman]

I've been trying to find the Aeromarine SBG-1 glider and I'm curious if this theory can be substantiated?

Before Aeromarine became Aeromarine-Klemm in 1928, Aeromarine Plane and Motor company obtained the rights to license build the Klemm L25 and L20. For this purpose Uppercu established a subsidiary division called Boland Aeroplane Co. (in honor of Frank Boland and whose brother was an Aeromarine designer) for approximately a year to market the aircraft (this is probably why the aircraft is listed as an 'Aeromarine' alone). The Klemm designs were popularly flying with Salmson engines at the time and were considered to be 'powered gliders' by some. I'm wondering if SBG-1 stood for 'Salmson-Boland-Glider' first model? I've looked for NC84V on a number of Klemm aircraft, but no luck. Any thoughts?

 

[Stargazer]

Great find Memaerobilia!!! That is the Curtiss-Courtney CA-1 Curtiss Commuter. Its a 1935 design that only resulted in three airframes. The fuselage was contracted by Courtney to EDO who built the metal fuselage. The wings were fashioned from wood. The aircraft flew well enough, but the design was too antiquated for military use. The three aircraft were sold to the Japanese!

Congrats on identifying this aircraft! I have always loved the CA-1 but honestly didn't recognize it from the photo. Well done.

 

[Stargazer]

Before Aeromarine became Aeromarine-Klemm in 1928, Aeromarine Plane and Motor company obtained the rights to license build the Klemm L25 and L20. For this purpose Uppercu established a subsidiary division called Boland Aeroplane Co. (in honor of Frank Boland and whose brother was an Aeromarine designer) for approximately a year to market the aircraft (this is probably why the aircraft is listed as an 'Aeromarine' alone).

The use of the name Boland was actually a throwback to 15 years before when the company that became Aeromarine was still known as Boland (from the three brothers who started it). I knew of the brief re-use of that name before the switch to Aeromarine-Klemm, but have been unsuccessful so far in finding 1928 Boland ads, and haven't heard that Boland was to market any gliders. Is this just a hypothesis or do you have confirmation for it in some source?

 

[Dynoman]

The source for my speculation is varied, however this site referencing the works of Klemm had a couple of items that drew me to consider the Salmson-Boland-Glider idea: https://hannsklemm.wordpress.com/liezensen/aeromarine-klemm/

AKL-16A no data; existed?
L-20 all-wood, part fabric-covered wing; pivoting, then conventional wingtips for ailerons (marketed by Boland) (1928)
L-25 imported Klemm powered glider design (marketed by Boland) (1928, ~60 built)
L-25A also known as AKL-40 or AKL-25A; Salmson engine (formerly under Type 2-47) (1928)
L-25A also known as AKL-40 or AKL-25A; EDO twin-float version (1929)
L-25A-1 undocumented version (3 built)
AKL-60 prototypes of the AKL-26 (1929)
AKL-70 TRAINER, also known as Model 70; 70hp LeBlond 5E engine (1929, ~10 built)
AKL-26 production of AKL-60; LeBlond engine (1930)
AKL-26 Sp. twin-float modification (1930)
AKL-26A extra fuel tank, LeBlond engine (1929, 1 conversion)
L-26A Kantner twin-float conversion (marketed under the company name Uppercu) (1934, 14+ built)
L-26B also as AKL-85, AKL-26B or Model 85 FLYER; LeBlond 5DF engine; floats possible (1930)
L-26X version with 65hp Velie M-5 engine (1932)
AKL-27 heavier conversions of L-26B with 110hp LeBlond 7DF engine; also known as L-27 (1930)

The initial L25's in America were powered with the 40 hp Salmson engines (later the cheaper LeBlond engines were used). The L20 had even less HP, a 20hp Mercedes engine. Once the Klemm aircraft began to be produced in the US, Aeromarine began equipping their Klemm's with the Salmson. Just speculation, but I was hoping someone had data on the first L20 flown by Aeromarine, which may have been designated as a 'powered glider' with a Salmson, hence SBG-1.

 

[richard]

About those Aeromarine-klemm , this one was said to be an "AEROMARINE KLEMM B" , a much modified Klemm Kl 26 .

In "Les Ailes" 1930 , it has a very different designation : "UPPERCU BURNELLI"

Do you know where the truth is ?

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6553727s/f3.item

 

[hesham]

My dear Richard,

I spoke about it here in reply # 46,and my dear Skyblazer answer me;

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3888.45.html

 

[Dynoman]

Hesham, you and Skyblazer are correct in that it was an Aeromarine Klemm design. Klemm aircraft was in production at Aeromarine from 1928 to 1931 under license to Uppercu. Burnelli was under contract to build the CB-16 'flying wing' for Paul Chapman of Skyliner, Inc. in 1928. Burnelli needed a place to build the aircraft and leased space at the Aeromarine facilities. The Klemm designs were popular as a safe, reliable, and economic aircraft, however after the stock market crash of 1929 orders began drying up. In 1929 Uppercu forged a new company known as Uppercu-Burnelli to build the Burnelli flying-wings (UB-20 the first for the new alliance) and continue production of sport aircraft. I suspect that the Aeromarine B was a heavier, slightly modified AKL-26 with the "B" designation to denote Burnelli's influence. However that part (B-for Burnelli) is speculation.

 

[memaerobilia]

I have several Aeromarine letters, offering different aircraft to a potential customer.
The designations become just a bit confused, because the Company designation in the letters is a different coding than the registration for those aircraft.
here are some of the examples that are listed in the Aeromarine company letters, in 1931, while the company was in Receivership.

They offer a "Model 85, NC869W, but that N number is registered as "Aeromarine AKL-26B"

Another Model 85, NC394-N offering, is registered as AKL-26B

They offer Model 40, NC160M, which is registered as AKL-25A with 40hp Salmson. Type Certificate #121

The AKL-26 used the 65/70hp LeBlond
The AKL-26B, Model 85 used the 85hp LeBlond

They supply a photo advertisement for the "Model 70" with 3 aircraft and I can make out numbers on the first two;
1. NC9177-registered as Aeromarine-Klemm AKL-25
2. NC318N -registerd as Aeromarine-Klemm AKL-26A and BOTH look Identical in photo...
3. cannot determine N# but the third one at rear has straight cut across top of fin and rudder, unlike first two that have upswept rudders, since the ad boasts of the "The Model 70" as a Trainer, and it is same as their logo photo, It should be the Model 70 Trainer, AKL-70


AND **The image of the colorful bright red aircraft logo on their 1931 Letterhead is taken from their photo of ther Model 70, NC321-N, registered as AKL-26A
This last one was registered in a flurry of successive N numbers from NC312N-NC321N (with the exception of NC315N-being a different aircraft company registration, of another non Aeromarine-Klemm type)

You will note that the NC numbers at top group are not at all close registration numbers..)

 

[memaerobilia]

Here is a 1931 Aeromarine-Klemm letterhead.Below that is an age-toned, actual photo, (size 1.5 x 2.5" or 4 x 6.5 cm) that they often clipped to the bottom of letters that they sent to prospective customers. The photo Clearly shows NC321-N on the wing and tail

 

[Stargazer]

I have another problem about this one. Civil register gives the "Aeromarine Model B" (no Klemm, no Burnelli) as [399N], but contrary to the inverted Cirrus engine in the Les Ailes article, it's registered with a "BMW A" engine...

Actually answering myself on this one... The article says the aircraft was "primitively fitted" with a 90hp radial engine (which corresponds to the BMW Type A), later replaced by the inverted Cirrus of same power. The article also says that the two-seater "will give way to a three-seater with 150hp engine"...

 

[Stargazer]

AKL-26 Special was under ATC 2-111.
AKL-26A conversion by Kantner under ATC 2-466 in 1934 [159M].

L-25A also known as AKL-40 or AKL-25A; Salmson engine (formerly under Type 2-47) (1928)

What Type was it under afterwards?

AKL-26A extra fuel tank, LeBlond engine (1929, 1 conversion)
L-26A Kantner twin-float conversion (marketed under the company name Uppercu) (1934, 14+ built)
L-26B also as AKL-85, AKL-26B or Model 85 FLYER; LeBlond 5DF engine; floats possible (1930)

There exists a confusion here I believe. I have about 40 AKL-26A aircraft produced, only one twin-float conversion and over 14 L-26B built.

Just speculation, but I was hoping someone had data on the first L20 flown by Aeromarine, which may have been designated as a 'powered glider' with a Salmson, hence SBG-1.

As I said (and clearly demonstrated, or at least I believe) the 84V registration is unlikely for a 1928 type, as these "V" registrations only appeared circa 1930. They wouldn't have waited for two years to have the type registered.

 

[memaerobilia]

Hi Skyblazer..
RE:
"As I said (and clearly demonstrated, or at least I believe) the 84V registration is unlikely for a 1928 type, as these "V" registrations only appeared circa 1930. They wouldn't have waited for two years to have the type registered.

I'd have to agree. By coincidence, I was working with some orig photos of the Pan Am Sikorsky S-40s yesterday.( the First of the Pan Am Clippers). The first two, of only three built, in 1931 were NC80-V and NC81-VMy thinking, is that the:
84V Aeromarine SBG-1 glider, 1
was probably from 1931...

 

[Dynoman]

Here's a little known 1920 project of Aeromarine...The Aeromarine Ice Boat. Crewed by "Edwin Musick and Joseph Boland"!!

 

[Stargazer]

Here's a little known 1920 project of Aeromarine...The Aeromarine Ice Boat. Crewed by "Edwin Musick and Joseph Boland"!!

Excellent! Thanks for this rarity. And though it's not an aircraft, it's easy to see that they merely converted a biplane's fuselage to create this machine.

As for "Edwin Musick and Joseph Boland", no mistake here. Joseph was the founder of the original Boland Aeroplane & Motor Co. in 1909, with brothers Frank and James. Frank died in the fatal crash of a Tailless Biplane early in 1913, but Joseph remained very active with the new Aeromarine company until the early 1920s.

The presence of Musick here with Boland in New Jersey is interesting: he was originally from Santa Monica in California, and built a couple of aircraft there in 1912-13 (both of which crashed). Musick later became a civil flight instructor with the USAAC and, still later, a world-record setter and chief pilot of the China Clipper on PanAm's first trans-Pacific flight in 1935.

 

[hesham]

Here's a little known 1920 project of Aeromarine...The Aeromarine Ice Boat. Crewed by "Edwin Musick and Joseph Boland"!!

Nice find Dynoman.

 

[Dynoman]

Here's one of the real secrets of Aeromarine: Rum running. Although Aeromarine's upper managerial echelon may not have been aware of their pilots escapades (although I find that hard to believe) I know that knowledge of rum-running went as high as the Station Managers knowledge. Here Edwin "Cautious Eddie" Musick is loading scotch on to his Curtiss HS-2L from the stern of the Arethusa, which was famous Bill McCoy's rum-running schooner. Notice the Aeromarine coveralls he's wearing. There were also other pilots that were involved and two popular ones that died during their Aeromarine run-running venture...but that's another story . Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[memaerobilia]

Dynoman;
Thank you for those great photos of the Ice Boat plane and the rumrunner! i

I was fortunate to become close friends with (a much older) former successful aircraft rum runner for the Northeast, and he visited our collections, for a few hours each month, in one of his vintage Rolls Royces, and told the most facinating tales of those rumrunning days. He had started out flying, as a teenager, BEFORE the new Civil aviator's licenses, and delivered sausages by flying over the customer's homes and dropping the packages into their yards!

Happy Thanksgiving to all

 

[Stargazer]

At last, I'm able to present this work which took a little while to be ready, but hopefully it will be of interest to some of you.

Here is my attempt at completely redrawing the Aeromarine Passenger-Cargo Land Airplane from Page 1 of this topic.

As the original image was extremely blurry and stained in places, I had to make some choices, interpret some details in my own way and make some sense of it all... There are parts I'm really not too sure about: the lower tail elevator that is moved forward, the tail skid's design, the strange wire arrangement at the top of the wing that begs for a pole of some kind that I couldn't find in the original drawing... All in all it's a work in progress and I will more than welcome any suggestions to improve on it.

Just for easy reference, here is the link to the post with the original, poor quality image:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18424.msg265516.html#msg265516

I'm also attaching my own imaginary color scheme for that aircraft. It really belongs more in the "User artwork" section, but there on its own without the context here, it would have been kind of lonesome and slightly irrelevant. However if a moderator feels that the drawing and/or the colored version shouldn't be here, then feel free to move them and place a link in this thread for reference. Thanks!

 

[Dynoman]

Skyblazer....Beautiful drawings!! I just looked at the drawing here and it looks exactly the same. The tail skid and the wiring above the wing looks the same. The drawing I have from Skyways Journal its very tough to make out the elevator. I'll post a picture of a closeup of the tail.

 

[Dynoman]

Any information on the Aeromarine two-seat supercharged CO-1 Observation aircraft proposal? Gallaudet won the USAAC Engineering Divisions competition in 1922 and produced three aircraft. Aeromarine is listed as having proposed such an aircraft, but I haven't seen any drawings or other descriptions outside of Aerofiles.

 

[Stargazer]

Any information on the Aeromarine two-seat supercharged CO-1 Observation aircraft proposal? Gallaudet won the USAAC Engineering Divisions competition in 1922 and produced three aircraft. Aeromarine is listed as having proposed such an aircraft, but I haven't seen any drawings or other descriptions outside of Aerofiles.

The Aeromarine project was not called the "CO-1" but the CO-L (for Corps Observation - Liberty-powered).

 

[cluttonfred]

Here's one of the real secrets of Aeromarine: Rum running. Although Aeromarine's upper managerial echelon may not have been aware of their pilots escapades (although I find that hard to believe) I know that knowledge of rum-running went as high as the Station Managers knowledge. Here Edwin "Cautious Eddie" Musick is loading scotch on to his Curtiss HS-2L from the stern of the Arethusa, which was famous Bill McCoy's rum-running schooner. Notice the Aeromarine coveralls he's wearing. There were also other pilots that were involved and two popular ones that died during their Aeromarine run-running venture...but that's another story . Happy Thanksgiving!

Well, that's certainly worth raising a glass in salute!

 

[Dynoman]

Thank you Skyblazer...you are right. The CO-1 is the USAAC Technical Circular designation for the Observation aircraft. CO-L was the Aeromarine designation for the type's requirement.

And yes...a salute to the men who 'went west,' which were Theodore Tibbs and De Los Thomas.

 

[Stargazer]

Does anyone know if it is correct to have the Engineering Division's GL-1 target glider listed as an Aeromarine type?

I have this machine listed under both manufacturers, and since Aeromarine built the Engineering Division's PG-1, it is possible that they also did other subcontracting work for them too... Thoughts?

 

[Dynoman]

Here is a sketch of the BM-1 by Boris Korvin-Kroukovsky from Ted Koch article in Skyways No. 49, 1999.

 

[hesham]

Here is a sketch of the BM-1 by Boris Korvin-Kroukovsky from Ted Koch article in Skyways No. 49, 1999.

Amazing find Dynoman,many thanks.

 

[Stargazer]

Here is a sketch of the BM-1 by Boris Korvin-Kroukovsky from Ted Koch article in Skyways No. 49, 1999.

I'm feeling spoiled right now... and also a little frustrated because I've just finished a whole day of drawing plans, and you've just added some more work on the stack...

Anyway, by all means keep 'em comin' if there's more!!! ;D ;D

Thanks a bunch.

 

[Dynoman]

Your welcome! I also have something interesting coming from the National Archives regarding a proposal from Aeromarine. If its worth posting I'll certainly share it.

 

[Dynoman]

Aeromarine Pursuit Aircraft Proposal 1920

US National Archives documents that relates to McCook Engineering Division proposals from Aeromarine: Pursuit Aircraft Proposal February 1920 responding to Specification 1518-A.

Aircraft description (limited) based on McCook's Chief Engineer's review:

Aeromarine's Pursuit Proposal Aircraft

1. Two-bay biplane design with liquid cooled engine.
2. Engine removal, field assembly, and maintenance would be difficult due to wing cellule design.
3. Over-sized wing for a pursuit type aircraft, reducing the likelihood of high speed and lateral maneuverability.
4. "The arrangement of the wings would allow very good visibility and is highly commendable, but the high sidewalls of the fuselage to a great extent preclude good vision forward slightly downward"
5. Has a single lift-wire (on the wings), that the engineer found dangerous.
6. Tail section was deemed "poor" which could lead to "weaving."
7. The "extended" bracing of the tail structure "hardly appears necessary, particularly considering the planform of the horizontal tail surfaces."
8. Appears to have one radiator on left side as engineer says "one radiator in addition to this consideration, mounted on the right side would help considerably in the balance of the ship in flight."
9. "The accessibility for adjustment provided by the Q.D. (?) feature is unquestionably a highly desirable provision."

The engineer requests that Aeromarine's engineer, Charles Willard, to come to Dayton to discuss Aeromarine's plans directly and to better understand the "viewpoint" of McCook's Engineering Divisions requirements.

Based on this description maybe a basic arrangement can be deciphered as to the configuration of the pursuit aircraft.

 

[Dynoman]

Aeromarine Coast Artillery Surveillance Type IX Proposal March 1920

A proposal by Aeromarine to the McCook Engineering Division describes the requirements for the Type IX aircraft. The National Archive documentation does not describe Aeromarine's proposal, but does include letters and telegrams between Aeromarine's Chief Engineer, Charles Willard and the engineers at McCook.

Willard, trying to get a better idea of the Type IX aircraft is told that the Coastal Artillery Surveillance aircraft should have the following:

1. Three crew members: Observer (in front cockpit), a pilot (in the middle cockpit) and a gunner (in the rear cockpit).
2. The forward and rear cockpits should have a radio. All three cockpits should be connected via an interphone of the SCR-89 type.
3. The forward cockpit should have controls for releasing a bomb.
4. A "K-1" camera should mounted between the observer cockpit and the pilots cockpit and controlled by the observer.
5. Parachutes for the crew should include a seat pack for the pilot and either a seat pack or lap pack for the observer and gunner.

 

[Dynoman]

Here's one of the documents: Aeromarine Type IX Coastal Artillery Surveillance Aircraft information.

 

[Dynoman]

Aeromarine Pursuit Aircraft review from McCook Engineering:
The basic review is paraphrased in the post above (Reply #113).

 

[hesham]

Aeromarine Pursuit Aircraft review from McCook Engineering:

Nice Info Dynoman,thanks.

 

[Stargazer]

Thanks a lot Dynoman for sharing with us your wonderful work of patient investigation!

 

[memaerobilia]

Fascinating new info. Thank you so much