A modern frigate?

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

The 360⁰ staring capability of SPY-6(V)3 seems to have been reasonably important to the US Navy, even if they were still wedded to the SPY-6 as radar system they could have specified the SPY-6(V)2 EASR instead.

 

[Jimmo952]

It’s not feasible to equip every soldier and marine like a tier 1 operator, people understand that, I don’t know why people don’t understand

The Constellations are large in part because they have significant growth margin built in.

It's inevitable that additional weapons and capabilities be added to the ships durring their service life.

Witness the Spruance class weapons fit at first launch and where they ended up.

 

[johnpjones1775]

It’s not feasible to equip every soldier and marine like a tier 1 operator, people understand that, I don’t know why people don’t understand

The Constellations are large in part because they have significant growth margin built in.

It's inevitable that additional weapons and capabilities be added to the ships durring their service life.

Witness the Spruance class weapons fit at first launch and where they ended up.

That’s fine i guess but a significant portion of the tonnage come from the super structure. A super structure that was required to be a specific minimum size to mount SPY. SPY being completely unnecessary for the job the ship is meant to do

 

[Jimmo952]

It’s not feasible to equip every soldier and marine like a tier 1 operator, people understand that, I don’t know why people don’t understand

The Constellations are large in part because they have significant growth margin built in.

It's inevitable that additional weapons and capabilities be added to the ships durring their service life.

Witness the Spruance class weapons fit at first launch and where they ended up.

That’s fine i guess but a significant portion of the tonnage come from the super structure. A super structure that was required to be a specific minimum size to mount SPY. SPY being completely unnecessary for the job the ship is

It’s not feasible to equip every soldier and marine like a tier 1 operator, people understand that, I don’t know why people don’t understand

The Constellations are large in part because they have significant growth margin built in.

It's inevitable that additional weapons and capabilities be added to the ships durring their service life.

Witness the Spruance class weapons fit at first launch and where they ended up.

That’s fine i guess but a significant portion of the tonnage come from the super structure. A super structure that was required to be a specific minimum size to mount SPY. SPY being completely unnecessary for the job the ship is meant to do

The Navy's said the Constellation FFGs can do anything the Burkes can do. Just less of it.

It's clear the Navy sees these as multi-mission warships and not something limited to the ASW role.

They will be very capable ships.

Perhaps there is room for a smaller, austere frigate for the US Navy but that was clearly not the intention of the Constellation class.

The Navy did look at upgunned versions of the National Security Cutter which were probably closer to what you are envisioning.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

They will be very capable ships.

Perhaps there is room for a smaller, austere frigate for the US Navy but that was clearly not the intention of the Constellation class.

The Navy did look at upgunned versions of the National Security Cutter which were probably closer to what you are envisioning.

The National Security Cutter derivatives were still pretty capable when it came to AAW capability, some of them had SPY-1F or CEAFAR.

 

[TomS]

Perhaps there is room for a smaller, austere frigate for the US Navy but that was clearly not the intention of the Constellation class.

We already have a bunch of small warships we don't dare send into areas with a credible air or antiship missile threat -- the Littoral Combat Ships.

Another factor in the displacement growth of the Connie's is habitability. They're likely to a similar standard to the DDG-1000s and other contemporary Eurofrigates, meaning 4-6 person staterooms rather than mass berthing even for enlisted sailors. In an environment when people have options that don't involve living in a tin can, better berthing is a key to recruitment and retention. But it eats displacement.

 

[Jimmo952]

Perhaps there is room for a smaller, austere frigate for the US Navy but that was clearly not the intention of the Constellation class.

We already have a bunch of small warships we don't dare send into areas with a credible air or antiship missile threat -- the Littoral Combat Ships.

Another factor in the displacement growth of the Connie's is habitability. They're likely to a similar standard to the DDG-1000s and other contemporary Eurofrigates, meaning 4-6 person staterooms rather than mass berthing even for enlisted sailors. In an environment when people have options that don't involve living in a tin can, better berthing is a key to recruitment and retention. But it eats displacement.

All good points.
.
Unfortunately, the LCS has been a debacle and was found unsuited for ASW.

As far as I know, the current plan is to retain six Freedoms for the small boat anti surface role and fifteen or so Independence class ships as minesweepers.

 

[johnpjones1775]

It’s not feasible to equip every soldier and marine like a tier 1 operator, people understand that, I don’t know why people don’t understand

The Constellations are large in part because they have significant growth margin built in.

It's inevitable that additional weapons and capabilities be added to the ships durring their service life.

Witness the Spruance class weapons fit at first launch and where they ended up.

That’s fine i guess but a significant portion of the tonnage come from the super structure. A super structure that was required to be a specific minimum size to mount SPY. SPY being completely unnecessary for the job the ship is

It’s not feasible to equip every soldier and marine like a tier 1 operator, people understand that, I don’t know why people don’t understand

The Constellations are large in part because they have significant growth margin built in.

It's inevitable that additional weapons and capabilities be added to the ships durring their service life.

Witness the Spruance class weapons fit at first launch and where they ended up.

That’s fine i guess but a significant portion of the tonnage come from the super structure. A super structure that was required to be a specific minimum size to mount SPY. SPY being completely unnecessary for the job the ship is meant to do

The Navy's said the Constellation FFGs can do anything the Burkes can do. Just less of it.

It's clear the Navy sees these as multi-mission warships and not something limited to the ASW role.

They will be very capable ships.

Perhaps there is room for a smaller, austere frigate for the US Navy but that was clearly not the intention of the Constellation class.

The Navy did look at upgunned versions of the National Security Cutter which were probably closer to what you are envisioning.

even from that perspective, they don't NEED to have SPY radar.
Swapping SPY for SG saves you $275m per ship bringing the cost per ship down under $1b.
Link system means that ships and aircraft can feed targeting data to the frigates from all over the place meaning it's literally unnecessary for the ships to have their own SPY arrays.
this means the only radar smaller ships actually need, is radar suitable for self defense. SG however is suitable for area defense, so a group of 2-4 can escort a fairly disperse convoy of ships remaining 50+ miles from any other ship in the convoy and still have plenty of overlap, without any more capable ships around.

 

[johnpjones1775]

the navy stated in 2019 the the ship's AAW role was self and area defense for escorting other ships. that does not require SPY to fulfill that mission.

"In January 2019, the U.S. Navy announced that the new frigate will have a minimum of 32 Mark 41 Vertical Launch System cells aboard the ship for primarily anti-air warfare for self-defense or escort missions"

Navy Squeezing Costs Out of FFG(X) Program as Requirements Solidify - USNI News

ARLINGTON, Va. – The Navy says it may have squeezed out about $150 million per hull in savings as the service closes in on final requirements for a planned class of next-generation frigates (FFG(X)), program officials said last week. After raising eyebrows in Congress last year with an upper-end...

news.usni.org

wiki has the cost listed at $1.2b here they're saying $800m, another source is saying $795m, and a contract for the 4th ship awarded at $526m.

if they're ringing up at the register for $800m or less i don't care if they have SPY, hell it's better to have it if they're clocking in at that sort of price point, but for $1.2b SPY for self defense and to defend a few other ships is waaay too much of an investment

 

[johnpjones1775]

Perhaps there is room for a smaller, austere frigate for the US Navy but that was clearly not the intention of the Constellation class.

We already have a bunch of small warships we don't dare send into areas with a credible air or antiship missile threat -- the Littoral Combat Ships.

Another factor in the displacement growth of the Connie's is habitability. They're likely to a similar standard to the DDG-1000s and other contemporary Eurofrigates, meaning 4-6 person staterooms rather than mass berthing even for enlisted sailors. In an environment when people have options that don't involve living in a tin can, better berthing is a key to recruitment and retention. But it eats displacement.

Wow, more bad information about the LCSes on the internet go figure.

Why can’t LCS haters stay up to date on what’s happening?

 

[SSgtC]

SPY being completely unnecessary for the job the ship is meant to do

The Navy seems to vehemently disagree with you. Any of the SPY series radars coupled with AEGIS is insanely expensive. The fact that the Navy demanded the ships be equipped with them means they see AAW as part of their mission.

Look let's not argue. The United States has a defense budget big enough to fight God. But that budget has largely gone to developing high end combatants for all the services. Why? Because that shit takes forever and a day to build. This isn't WWII where a destroyer can go from keel laying to fighting in WESTPAC in under a year. Even the frigates will take years to build. If we ever get into another peer conflict, we won't have time to build more new kit. So we better damn well make sure the kit we do have, is the best, most capable kit money can buy during peace time. Because once that war rolls around, we won't be building nothing but stop-gap shit.

 

[TomS]

Wow, more bad information about the LCSes on the internet go figure.

Why can’t LCS haters stay up to date on what’s happening?

Upgraded or not, the LCSs are still tooling around with nothing but RAM and decoys. That's not adequate for a serious air threat environment.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Wow, more bad information about the LCSes on the internet go figure.

Why can’t LCS haters stay up to date on what’s happening?

Upgraded or not, the LCSs are still tooling around with nothing but RAM and decoys. That's not adequate for a serious air threat environment.

...mk110 is an excellent self defense weapon, SEARAM likewise is a great self defense weapon.

what is a 'serious' air threat? both weapons are plenty capable of defeating any missile attack that's ever been launched against a single ship in real life.

 

[Jimmo952]

Wow, more bad information about the LCSes on the internet go figure.

Why can’t LCS haters stay up to date on what’s happening?

Upgraded or not, the LCSs are still tooling around with nothing but RAM and decoys. That's not adequate for a serious air threat environment.

Sounds like the Freedoms will become replacements for the Cyclones. They should be much more capable than the Cyclones.

The Independence class looks like they will be dedicated to mine warfare replacing the Avengers.

I don't know how good the LCS MIW package is but clearly the LCS has better self protection and aviation capability in comparison to the Avengers.

 

[johnpjones1775]

SPY being completely unnecessary for the job the ship is meant to do

The Navy seems to vehemently disagree with you. Any of the SPY series radars coupled with AEGIS is insanely expensive. The fact that the Navy demanded the ships be equipped with them means they see AAW as part of their mission.

Look let's not argue. The United States has a defense budget big enough to fight God. But that budget has largely gone to developing high end combatants for all the services. Why? Because that shit takes forever and a day to build. This isn't WWII where a destroyer can go from keel laying to fighting in WESTPAC in under a year. Even the frigates will take years to build. If we ever get into another peer conflict, we won't have time to build more new kit. So we better damn well make sure the kit we do have, is the best, most capable kit money can buy during peace time. Because once that war rolls around, we won't be building nothing but stop-gap shit.

the if the people in charge of the USN were in charge of the army, they'd equip every bullet sponge grunt the same way they equip T1 operators.
AAW will be apart of any serious warship's mission. even the cyclones had stingers onboard for AAW, but that doesn't mean SPY is necessary to do the job.

you're right we wont have time to build new kit during the conflict, but after the conflict we will need ships that can be built in a decent amount of time after the conflict. so we can build ships that will take 6-8 years to build after the fight, or we can build ships that take 3-5 years to build after the fight.
our lack of shipyards and qualified workforce already means if we lose a dozen burkes tomorrow, and half a dozen more are seriously damaged, i'd likely be a senior citizen before those losses were completely replaced and fixed. so the faster we can produce some effective warships the better.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Wow, more bad information about the LCSes on the internet go figure.

Why can’t LCS haters stay up to date on what’s happening?

Upgraded or not, the LCSs are still tooling around with nothing but RAM and decoys. That's not adequate for a serious air threat environment.

Sounds like the Freedoms will become replacements for the Cyclones. They should be much more capable than the Cyclones.

The Independence class looks like they will be dedicated to mine warfare replacing the Avengers.

I don't know how good the LCS MIW package is but clearly the LCS has better self protection and aviation capability in comparison to the Avengers.

i have a pal (know each other better than acquaintance but not well enough to call him a friend) who is a small combatant officer.
started off on an OHP, then a PC, then an LCS, now he's CO of one of the avengers. the avengers have had their capabilities upgraded over the years (but no school house ever introduced because of...reasons...) he says the avengers are the most capable MCMs in the world aside from the MCM LCSes.

 

[Jimmo952]

I think the Navy plans to keep 15 Independence class ships in service, all with the MIW package permanently installed.

As I said before, I have no idea how effective the MIW package is.

 

[CV12Hornet]

@johnpjones1775

Here's the thing about the Constellations: one of their big jobs is going to be taking over the job of escorting Amphibious Ready Groups and Underway Replenishment groups so that Burkes don't have to do the job, and that requires the ability to defend other vessels from air targets. Sea Giraffe is not capable of that, it is strictly a self-defense radar as the land variants are.

And bluntly, the Hezbollah attacks on the Israeli Navy and the attacks on USS Mason amply demonstrate that if you're going to risk a frigate on patrol duties near hostile shores you damn well better equip them to handle serious missile attacks, because it's frightfully easy for non-state actors to get their hands on antiship missiles these days. C-802s aren't the best missiles in the world, but they're seaskimmers with reasonable modern seekers; they're a threat.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Tonnage is a horrible way to classify ships nowadays

Yeah, the Constellation class is 7200 tons, and has all the weapons of a 4200ton FFG-7...

What 4200 ton ship has the same level of armament as the constellations?

All modernized OHPs have fewer VLS, no ASMs, and a main gun with a lower throw weight.

Perry has a 40 round Mk13 and can take a 32cell VLS with space for at least 8x AShM in separate launchers, and a 3". Oh, and the usual Mk32 triple tubes with space for an H-60, really should not forget those...

Constellation has a 32cell VLS, 16x AShM in separate launchers, and a 57mm. No mention of Mk32 triple tubes, but since every other ship in the Navy has them I'm assuming that they will be fitted.

Same/similar VLS, slight advantage to the Connie for AShM capacity, slight advantage to the Connie for gun throw weight.

 

[johnpjones1775]

@johnpjones1775

Here's the thing about the Constellations: one of their big jobs is going to be taking over the job of escorting Amphibious Ready Groups and Underway Replenishment groups so that Burkes don't have to do the job, and that requires the ability to defend other vessels from air targets. Sea Giraffe is not capable of that, it is strictly a self-defense radar as the land variants are.

And bluntly, the Hezbollah attacks on the Israeli Navy and the attacks on USS Mason amply demonstrate that if you're going to risk a frigate on patrol duties near hostile shores you damn well better equip them to handle serious missile attacks, because it's frightfully easy for non-state actors to get their hands on antiship missiles these days. C-802s aren't the best missiles in the world, but they're seaskimmers with reasonable modern seekers; they're a threat.

You’re right…110nmi range radar totally can’t protect other ships…

 

[johnpjones1775]

Tonnage is a horrible way to classify ships nowadays

Yeah, the Constellation class is 7200 tons, and has all the weapons of a 4200ton FFG-7...

What 4200 ton ship has the same level of armament as the constellations?

All modernized OHPs have fewer VLS, no ASMs, and a main gun with a lower throw weight.

Perry has a 40 round Mk13 and can take a 32cell VLS with space for at least 8x AShM in separate launchers, and a 3". Oh, and the usual Mk32 triple tubes with space for an H-60, really should not forget those...

Constellation has a 32cell VLS, 16x AShM in separate launchers, and a 57mm. No mention of Mk32 triple tubes, but since every other ship in the Navy has them I'm assuming that they will be fitted.

Same/similar VLS, slight advantage to the Connie for AShM capacity, slight advantage to the Connie for gun throw weight.

What OHP has 32 VLS? I have never seen one with more than 8 I will definitely need some sources on that claim if yours

As for the single arm launcher it’s RoF is inferior to VLS, and it’s magazine capacity for SAMs is also inferior to VLS

SVTT or no SVTT, it makes little real difference. They’re too short ranged to do realistically ever be used.

Edit- just realized you meant 32 ESSMs in the VLS

 

[Scott Kenny]

What OHP has 32 VLS? I have never seen one with more than 8 I will definitely need some sources on that claim if yours

No, nobody fitted an OHP with a 32cell Mk41 that I can find. Just the Aussies with an 8 cell forward for ESSM.

As for the single arm launcher it’s RoF is inferior to VLS, and it’s magazine capacity for SAMs is also inferior to VLS

point granted about the rate of fire being better for the Connies, but if we were designing the OHPs in the 1980s alongside the Ticos, they would have gotten a 32cell forward and Harpoons in a separate launcher.

Connies are basically the same weapons package (allowing for VLS differences) as the OHP in a package that is a LOT bigger.

SVTT or no SVTT, it makes little real difference. They’re too short ranged to do realistically ever be used.

Edit- just realized you meant 32 ESSMs in the VLS

No, I meant a 32 cell Mk41 in place of the Mk13, not an 8 cell with ESSM quad-packs.

How big is the Mk13 below decks? it holds 40 missiles and the center of the mechanism is open. volumetrically, there should be space for a 32rd Mk41 in there, even if you have to leave it with the mid-length cells unable to fire Tomahawks.

 

[johnpjones1775]

I’m

What OHP has 32 VLS? I have never seen one with more than 8 I will definitely need some sources on that claim if yours

No, nobody fitted an OHP with a 32cell Mk41 that I can find. Just the Aussies with an 8 cell forward for ESSM.

As for the single arm launcher it’s RoF is inferior to VLS, and it’s magazine capacity for SAMs is also inferior to VLS

point granted about the rate of fire being better for the Connies, but if we were designing the OHPs in the 1980s alongside the Ticos, they would have gotten a 32cell forward and Harpoons in a separate launcher.

Connies are basically the same weapons package (allowing for VLS differences) as the OHP in a package that is a LOT bigger.

SVTT or no SVTT, it makes little real difference. They’re too short ranged to do realistically ever be used.

Edit- just realized you meant 32 ESSMs in the VLS

No, I meant a 32 cell Mk41 in place of the Mk13, not an 8 cell with ESSM quad-packs.

How big is the Mk13 below decks? it holds 40 missiles and the center of the mechanism is open. volumetrically, there should be space for a 32rd Mk41 in there, even if you have to leave it with the mid-length cells unable to fire Tomahawks.

do you have sources for this information about the 32 cell VLS being able to fit?

 

[uk 75]

In an ideal world navies would not have to operate a mix of high and low end ships, but budgets have always been a factor and will continue to be.
Low end ships tend to be either single role (RN second rate frigates or USN Knox class ASW) or basic general purpose (RN Tribal class in the 60s).
By the end of the Cold War the RN had a T23 frigate with Seawolf VLS and Merlin ASW helo plus Harpoon SSM. Proposals for second rate OPV derived ships were stillborn until the 21 Century when the River class were used to replace older T23s.
Current frigate designs have to cope with the continuing dilemma that most peacetime duties can be met by a River class but any shooting wars need a T23/T26.
Fortunately most modern warships end their careers having not used their main weapons in anger. But there is no guarantee of this.

 

[BlackBat242]

I’m

No, I meant a 32 cell Mk41 in place of the Mk13, not an 8 cell with ESSM quad-packs.

How big is the Mk13 below decks? it holds 40 missiles and the center of the mechanism is open. volumetrically, there should be space for a 32rd Mk41 in there, even if you have to leave it with the mid-length cells unable to fire Tomahawks.

do you have sources for this information about the 32 cell VLS being able to fit?

Mk 13 magazine is 203" diameter...

Mk 41 8-cell is 82" x 125".

The smallest a 32-cell set can be packed in a square is 207"x207"*... so it does look feasible.

*

 

[Scott Kenny]

I’m

No, I meant a 32 cell Mk41 in place of the Mk13, not an 8 cell with ESSM quad-packs.

How big is the Mk13 below decks? it holds 40 missiles and the center of the mechanism is open. volumetrically, there should be space for a 32rd Mk41 in there, even if you have to leave it with the mid-length cells unable to fire Tomahawks.

do you have sources for this information about the 32 cell VLS being able to fit?

Mk 13 magazine is 203" diameter...

Mk 41 8-cell is 82" x 125".

The smallest a 32-cell set can be packed in a square is 207"x207"*... so it does look feasible.

*
View attachment 702902

Thank you!

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

The Advanced Frigate proposed to Taiwan in the 1990s, and derived from the OHP had an AEGIS-like combat system and 48 VLS cells.

 

[Scott Kenny]

In an ideal world navies would not have to operate a mix of high and low end ships, but budgets have always been a factor and will continue to be.
Low end ships tend to be either single role (RN second rate frigates or USN Knox class ASW) or basic general purpose (RN Tribal class in the 60s).
By the end of the Cold War the RN had a T23 frigate with Seawolf VLS and Merlin ASW helo plus Harpoon SSM. Proposals for second rate OPV derived ships were stillborn until the 21 Century when the River class were used to replace older T23s.
Current frigate designs have to cope with the continuing dilemma that most peacetime duties can be met by a River class but any shooting wars need a T23/T26.
Fortunately most modern warships end their careers having not used their main weapons in anger. But there is no guarantee of this.

As I said, split the modern frigate design into a slower one that can escort merchant convoys and be built quickly in time of war (the old Ocean Escort role) and a faster one that can work with the carriers.

The US Connies seem to be that faster FFG.

But after some thought and checking some references:
if escorting merchant convoys and protecting them from air attacks requires Aegis, it's not significantly cheaper to build a 20-knot DE versus a 30+knot FFG. As long as you can build these FFGs as quickly as DEs, at least.

 

[Jimmo952]

In an ideal world navies would not have to operate a mix of high and low end ships, but budgets have always been a factor and will continue to be.
Low end ships tend to be either single role (RN second rate frigates or USN Knox class ASW) or basic general purpose (RN Tribal class in the 60s).
By the end of the Cold War the RN had a T23 frigate with Seawolf VLS and Merlin ASW helo plus Harpoon SSM. Proposals for second rate OPV derived ships were stillborn until the 21 Century when the River class were used to replace older T23s.
Current frigate designs have to cope with the continuing dilemma that most peacetime duties can be met by a River class but any shooting wars need a T23/T26.
Fortunately most modern warships end their careers having not used their main weapons in anger. But there is no guarantee of this.

As I said, split the modern frigate design into a slower one that can escort merchant convoys and be built quickly in time of war (the old Ocean Escort role) and a faster one that can work with the carriers.

The US Connies seem to be that faster FFG.

But after some thought and checking some references:
if escorting merchant convoys and protecting them from air attacks requires Aegis, it's not significantly cheaper to build a 20-knot DE versus a 30+knot FFG. As long as you can build these FFGs as quickly as DEs, at least.

And this is why the US Navy never bit on HI's Patrol Frigate proposals.

They ended being a lot less ship (relative to the Connie) for not a lot less money.

 

[CV12Hornet]

You’re right…110nmi range radar totally can’t protect other ships…

I mean, you look at what it's been fitted to and what land-based missiles it's been paired with, and yeah, it can't. It's a pure search and early warning radar in the G/H band, and unlike the S/X-band SPY-6 doesn't have the means to provide precision track and targeting data. It's fine for ships that only carry self-defense SAMs and so mostly just need to know that a bandit is incoming. Area and even local-defense missiles are more demanding.

 

[Jimmo952]

I think what some are advocating for in this thread is something like the European Patrol Corvette.

Multiple variants are expected including OPC and ASW variants.

Seems like it will be well suited for operations other than war while still having at least some utility during an actual war.

The thing is gaining traction in Europe with a good number of countries getting on board.

 

[Moose]

The Advanced Frigate proposed to Taiwan in the 1990s, and derived from the OHP had an AEGIS-like combat system and 48 VLS cells.

It was also 50 feet longer than an OHP and 2 feet longer than a Connie.

 

[johnpjones1775]

You’re right…110nmi range radar totally can’t protect other ships…

I mean, you look at what it's been fitted to and what land-based missiles it's been paired with, and yeah, it can't. It's a pure search and early warning radar in the G/H band, and unlike the S/X-band SPY-6 doesn't have the means to provide precision track and targeting data. It's fine for ships that only carry self-defense SAMs and so mostly just need to know that a bandit is incoming. Area and even local-defense missiles are more demanding.

Algeria’s MEKOs have it and utilize ESSM

Halifax class also has it and also utilizes ESSM

Giraffe radar are utilized by Estonia’s air defense battalion

Pohjannma class same as above

Same for baynunah class

That’s not an insignificant number of classes of ship with medium ranges SAMs using sea giraffe.

 

[Scott Kenny]

You’re right…110nmi range radar totally can’t protect other ships…

I mean, you look at what it's been fitted to and what land-based missiles it's been paired with, and yeah, it can't. It's a pure search and early warning radar in the G/H band, and unlike the S/X-band SPY-6 doesn't have the means to provide precision track and targeting data. It's fine for ships that only carry self-defense SAMs and so mostly just need to know that a bandit is incoming. Area and even local-defense missiles are more demanding.

Algeria’s MEKOs have it and utilize ESSM

Halifax class also has it and also utilizes ESSM

Giraffe radar are utilized by Estonia’s air defense battalion

Pohjannma class same as above

Same for baynunah class

That’s not an insignificant number of classes of ship with medium ranges SAMs using sea giraffe.

ESSM is a self protection SAM, max range is on the order of 50km.

 

[CV12Hornet]

Algeria’s MEKOs have it and utilize ESSM

Halifax class also has it and also utilizes ESSM

Giraffe radar are utilized by Estonia’s air defense battalion

Pohjannma class same as above

Same for baynunah class

That’s not an insignificant number of classes of ship with medium ranges SAMs using sea giraffe.

Algeria's MEKOs have Umkhonto, not ESSM, and Umkhonto is a strictly point-defense missile. The Halifaxes have Giraffe and ESSM, yes, but they primarily use it for surface search, with air search being taken up the SMART-S that's also fitted. And I wouldn't consider the RBS-23 a medium-range missile for naval use, either, not with a range of 20 kilometers.

Only the corvettes are comboing a medium-range SAM system with Sea Giraffe, and the Pohjannmaas are using the much larger, more advanced, and more powerful AESA Giraffe 4A. Giraffe 4A is in a size and cost category much closer to SPY-6, albeit with only a single emitter for an overall lighter and cheaper installation.

One ship is not terribly strong evidence, especially for a Gulf State due to the track record of Gulf States in buying ships that look impressive but have issues under the hood.

And further, for USN purposes just ESSM doesn't cut it; they wanted SM-2 from the start and that demands a better radar than even Giraffe 4A, much like how the FREMMs the design is based on carried ASTER 30. Like, it really must be pointed out that it's not just the US putting area air defense on a GP frigate, most of Europe has jumped on board that train and the Indians are doing so as well.

ESSM is a self protection SAM, max range is on the order of 50km.

Multiple navies, most notably Japan, use it for local defense, and a range of 50km should enable it to do so.

 

[Scott Kenny]

ESSM is a self protection SAM, max range is on the order of 50km.

Multiple navies, most notably Japan, use it for local defense, and a range of 50km should enable it to do so.

Fair point. I'm not sure I would want to use it for local defense unless we're talking a fairly dense convoy, though. "Two ships visible each way" from your position dense. Ship on the horizon, ship halfway to the horizon, you, ship halfway to the horizon, ship on the horizon.

I mean, there's a reason the USN doesn't use it for local defense, and it's not just because the original Sea Sparrow was so much shorter ranged so the USN has other tools.

 

[johnpjones1775]

In an ideal world navies would not have to operate a mix of high and low end ships, but budgets have always been a factor and will continue to be.
Low end ships tend to be either single role (RN second rate frigates or USN Knox class ASW) or basic general purpose (RN Tribal class in the 60s).
By the end of the Cold War the RN had a T23 frigate with Seawolf VLS and Merlin ASW helo plus Harpoon SSM. Proposals for second rate OPV derived ships were stillborn until the 21 Century when the River class were used to replace older T23s.
Current frigate designs have to cope with the continuing dilemma that most peacetime duties can be met by a River class but any shooting wars need a T23/T26.
Fortunately most modern warships end their careers having not used their main weapons in anger. But there is no guarantee of this.

As I said, split the modern frigate design into a slower one that can escort merchant convoys and be built quickly in time of war (the old Ocean Escort role) and a faster one that can work with the carriers.

The US Connies seem to be that faster FFG.

But after some thought and checking some references:
if escorting merchant convoys and protecting them from air attacks requires Aegis, it's not significantly cheaper to build a 20-knot DE versus a 30+knot FFG. As long as you can build these FFGs as quickly as DEs, at least.

or split the difference and build a 25kt FFG and use it for both...
a 35kt frigate can only keep up with a CVN for a short period of time before their fuel gets dangerously low, and chances are if the situation is so dire that a CBG is making a run for it the weakest ship in the group is likely going down regardless.

if they all manage to survive the initial attack that forced them to flee, it will basically half a day of full power run for a carrier doing 35kts to out run it's escorts' medium and long range SAMs.

SM6 has a 130mi range.
35kts is 40mph
25kts is 29mph there's an 11mph difference, this means it will take about 11.5 hours for a carrier to out run an escort's AA protection. even if the escort has a top speed of 35kts, i'm pretty sure it would be out of fuel long before the 11 hour mark.


at the same time, in peace time doing things like interdiction missions for smugglers and piracy, 20kts means the ship will be way too slow for missions like that.

 

[johnpjones1775]

I think what some are advocating for in this thread is something like the European Patrol Corvette.

Multiple variants are expected including OPC and ASW variants.

Seems like it will be well suited for operations other than war while still having at least some utility during an actual war.

The thing is gaining traction in Europe with a good number of countries getting on board.

that's more or less what i was advocating in my OPV thread lol

do 1 mission thats useful in wartime, how well it can do that mission would likely depend on how complex that mission is, so some variants would do their mission better than others.

 

[johnpjones1775]

I understand cost issues but the ships and crews are a substantial investment and their loss costs more to replace than the initial investment considering inflation. Also, any modern conflict will be limited in nature and replacement will be outside that timeframe so resources will become scarce and quick once the shooting starts. I believe the cost upfront will be dwarfed by the cost of replacements and the possible loss of further protected assets.

When was the last time the US lost a ship in combat?

20ish years ago is the answer. It’s only more expensive to replace losses if you’re taking losses.

 

[johnpjones1775]

You’re right…110nmi range radar totally can’t protect other ships…

I mean, you look at what it's been fitted to and what land-based missiles it's been paired with, and yeah, it can't. It's a pure search and early warning radar in the G/H band, and unlike the S/X-band SPY-6 doesn't have the means to provide precision track and targeting data. It's fine for ships that only carry self-defense SAMs and so mostly just need to know that a bandit is incoming. Area and even local-defense missiles are more demanding.

Algeria’s MEKOs have it and utilize ESSM

Halifax class also has it and also utilizes ESSM

Giraffe radar are utilized by Estonia’s air defense battalion

Pohjannma class same as above

Same for baynunah class

That’s not an insignificant number of classes of ship with medium ranges SAMs using sea giraffe.

ESSM is a self protection SAM, max range is on the order of 50km.

ESSM is a medium range SAM. 27miles well beyond self defense range. That’s operational area defense rang.