9M730 Burevestnik (SSC-X-9 Skyfall) cruise nuclear-powered missile

[Josh_TN]

I do not see the value add if existing ballistic weapons are assumed to have worked anyway, given the effort involved. There are much easier ways to add to warhead count. But Russia can do whatever it wants; I am fine with them spending money on these projects rather than something more strategically useful.

 

[EmoBirb]

If you don't see the value in freeing up existing assets and in general assets of a specific kind in the future for high value targets only and introducing another variable for the defender to account for (which has to account for delayed arrival as well, another dimension added), then I can't help you either. Because ultimately, this is the logical conclusion of a multi-domain strategic defensive posture.

The only missing element now is space based strategic strike to hold an adversary at risk at all times. Unfortunately there are probably several treaties in place that prohibit this. Luckily geopolitical upheaval is eroding the framework on which such treaties were established. So it's to be seen if Burevestnik remains as the pinnacle of counter-value weapons and if the ballistic missile stockpile can be further relieved from having to carry the strategic burden after Burevestnik laid the groundwork.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I consider this missile rather pointless. It will arrive half a day after a strategic exchange already occurred. It only makes sense if one thinks ABM systems would actually be significantly effective in a large scale nuclear war, IMO.

That is exactly the cause.

Russia thought that GBI etc would be effective in a full strategic exchange. Or at least someone convinced Czar Vlad that it would be.

I personally think the project might be more for long term technology development rather than a useful operational system.

I mean, I'd love to borrow the engine for a planetary-exploration probe series. Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, all their moons, etc. We'd need many of those engines, at least one per planet/moon.

 

[Hull down]

very interesting conversations occurring about this unproven prototype super weapon. Im sure this will be as credible as the other list of wunderwaffe. Odds on the performance being completely different than the stated figures? Zircon / khinzal vibes

 

[Forest Green]

Card game warfare doesn't work in strategic exchange. It isn't a game. Orbital frying isn't done by ASAT, it's done by ballistic missiles on direct ascent. To intercept them, you need to have, at least, something like nuclear pumped lasers on orbit.

Or boost-phase SBIs, which are planned. If such an attack was successful, then nuclear war starts and ICBMs and SLBMs are launched, Burevestnik arrives the next day, if it wasn't taken out by the aforementioned.

Either way, may I ask how this is in any shape or form relevant to Burevestnik? There's a Golden Dome thread for this kind of fantastical ramblings.

SB-AMTI detects it, aircraft dispatched, shot down with APKWS, much cheaper than GBI needed for ICBMs.

 

[EmoBirb]

SB-AMTI detects it, aircraft dispatched, shot down with APKWS, much cheaper than GBI needed for ICBMs.

What aircraft? This is a weapon designed to strike (not necessarily be launched) after a strategic exchange. There won't be a USAF left to try and intercept it, while the Missile Defense has been depleted and destroyed in the initial exchange.

If you don't think any major USAF base eats at least one warhead each, then I have a bridge to sell you. The neat side effect is that thanks to counter value being off loaded to Burevestnik, more ballistic missile warheads available to flatten everything barely related to military structure. There won't be anything in the air but the missile itself.

 

[snne]

This is my POV from a private exchange:

I'm just an enthusiast, not an expert -- buuut...:

Direct impacts of modern nuclear warheads on population centers and key military infrastructure are rather limited in terms of their area of effect; what makes a nuclear war so feared is the nuclear fallout that follows.

As a concept, Burevestnik is essentially a lower-atmosphere, subsonic HGV with indefinite endurance. But what does a nuclear-tipped, nuclear-propelled cruise missile actually bring to the table that you couldn't achieve by simply building more (& better) ICBMs and glide vehicles?

If the idea is to decimate the enemy after they've already spent their interceptors and lost most of their sensor and C2 network, why not simply overwhelm their defenses even more during the 1st strike, or even the 2nd? Established systems are inherently cheaper, and they also happen to be harder to intercept (even if much easier to detect). The only real advantage this cruise missile has for its intended mission is its endurance and ability to repeatedly change its flight path -- LO design matters less than people think within the horizon, and it's ultimately bound by physics how much you can reduce its RCS...

At face value, this is essentially just a delayed warhead delivery method. And while delivering it (before, or) after the fact may increase its chances of success, that doesn't necessarily mean it increases the overall success of your nuclear war...

Additionally, if you want more systems to survive the enemy's retaliation for your 2nd strike, why not simply build more bunkers that can survive the nuclear fallout? The whole point of this weapon is to catch the enemy with their guard down, but any launch and increased activity in the run-up to it will still be picked up by enemy space assets, while they'd also be far more alert during a crisis anyways.

If you launch it after M.A.D. occurs, while you can assure that its individual mission succeeds, you could have decimated the enemy even more and received less retribution in return by increasing the size and complexity of your 1st strike instead...

And this weapon is developed as a negotiation tool, but by the time nuclear fallout occurs, all negotiations would have already failed and neither side would have a functional state structure remaining anyway... And who even would want to rule over a world doomed by nuclear *Fallout* (pun intended!)...?

In the end, there are indeed certain use cases where such a weapon brings value. But frankly, it would make more sense for the US to actually develop such a capability rather than Russia. And it can't really remain a niche capability if you want it to be effective, but it can't become a widespread capability either.

 

[Forest Green]

What aircraft? This is a weapon designed to strike (not necessarily be launched) after a strategic exchange. There won't be a USAF left to try and intercept it, while the Missile Defense has been depleted and destroyed in the initial exchange.

If you don't think any major USAF base eats at least one warhead each, then I have a bridge to sell you. The neat side effect is that thanks to counter value being off loaded to Burevestnik, more ballistic missile warheads available to flatten everything barely related to military structure. There won't be anything in the air but the missile itself.

Don't you see the obvious problem with that statement? If you claim that jet-powered stuff taking off from the ground won't exist after the initial exchange, then neither will the Burevestnik. If it takes off beforehand then my previous statement applies. Of course it's not unthinkable that some tankers and aircraft from bases all over the world could be airborne prior to the initial strike either, given the 25-30 minute warning provided by SB assets.

Please note that intercontinental cruise missiles existed and were dropped long before Burevestnik and that was in the days long before SB-AMTI, AEW and the like. All the nuclear propulsion adds to the equation is cost but it does have some useful applications outside of global nuclear war.