1952 british carrier design

Anderman

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I am searching for information about the 1952 fleet carrier design for the royal navy, there some reference here on the board and the key publishing board

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101481

does anybody has more and harder data ?

thx :)

Marcus
 

JFC Fuller

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The key publishing thread has most of the published details. There are various sections in the following:

Rebuilding the Royal Navy D K Browne & George Moore
British Carrier Aviation Norman Friedman
Vanguard to Trident Eric Grove
 

Anderman

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Thanks Sealordlawrence :)

Quite expensive this books :-\
 

Antonio

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Rebuilding the Royal Navy D K Browne & George Moore
Expensive but it worths every cent

(But please don't buy it at Amazon :))
 

zajcev

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sealordlawrence said:
The key publishing thread has most of the published details. There are various sections in the following:

Rebuilding the Royal Navy D K Browne & George Moore
British Carrier Aviation Norman Friedman
Vanguard to Trident Eric Grove
Gents, a bit off topic but I would ask you about your opinion on the third book. Got Rebuilding the RN and also Postwar naval revolution by Friedman (and also his British carriers and DDs/FFs).
I am thinking about buying also Vanguard to Trident, but not sure if it is worth the money? ???
Don't want to buy book that describes something that is covered in other books I already have...

Thanks in advance.
 

JFC Fuller

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Grove's book comes from a very different perspective to the other two. Friedman and Brown primarily focus on the technical discussion of the ships and their systems as well as their development with occasional reference to the political, strategic and doctrinal history. Grove on the other hand evaluates UK defence policy, politics, economy and strategy and places the post war RN and its fleet plans in that context. In my opinion it is indispensable if you want to understand the RN in the post war period and frankly it is a great shame that more people on the internet have not read it as it would end many of pointless 'the government is evil, the RN needed aircraft carriers, CVA-01 was a necessity etc etc' rants.
 

zen

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'the government is evil, the RN needed aircraft carriers, CVA-01 was a necessity etc etc' rants.
Gosh who comes out with that?

One quibble though, what is Invincible if not a ASW carrier?
 

Anderman

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Mh a little short on money at the moment could somebody please post some data on the design dimension, number of planes etc. thx :)
 

zajcev

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sealordlawrence said:
Grove's book comes from a very different perspective to the other two. Friedman and Brown primarily focus on the technical discussion of the ships and their systems as well as their development with occasional reference to the political, strategic and doctrinal history. Grove on the other hand evaluates UK defence policy, politics, economy and strategy and places the post war RN and its fleet plans in that context. In my opinion it is indispensable if you want to understand the RN in the post war period and frankly it is a great shame that more people on the internet have not read it as it would end many of pointless 'the government is evil, the RN needed aircraft carriers, CVA-01 was a necessity etc etc' rants.
Thanks, so it is decided B)
 

JFC Fuller

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Zen,

My specific reference was to fleet carriers. You are of course absolutely correct that the Invincible class were ASW carriers, though to be frank an argument could be made that they were light fleet carriers. They are now firmly strike carriers.

Anderman,

If someone does not beet me to it I will write you up a piece tonight, if not it will not be until next week.
 

zen

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From memory if its working.

Beam was orriginaly 115,5ft, but got raised to 116ft. Flightdeck width was 160ft

Length waterline 815ft and flightceck 870ft.

By the end it was just two catapults, one bow 151ft stroke, one waist 199ft stroke, though the debate suggests they might have revised those later. It depends on what happend to the tonnage freed up.

Last I read it was three lifts, one centerline aft, and various options for the other two.

Twin 3" turrets where reduced to six, as the two forward ones where in fact too far forward and had to be removed from the design.

I'll dig out my reference for the specifics later if Lawrence does'nt beat me to it.
 

zen

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Here we go..

Length :870ft fd, 815ft wl, 780ft bp. Without bridal catcher we'd add about another 3ft each end for the safetynetting.

Beam: 116ft
Width 160ft fd, overall ? (at least another 18ft (half the lifts 36ft)to cope with the deck edge lift and the othersides 'furniture' would take it higher).

Draught 33.5ft (the limit really for a number of reasons)
Displacement 53,150tons
Armament six twin 3" turrets, and some minor guns (such as signal guns etc...)
Machinary four sets of Y300 for 190,000shp in the tropics or 205,000shp on temperate conditions.
Speed of slightly over 32kts deep and clean, or slightly over 30kts deep and dirty (six months out).
Endurance of 6,000nm at 22.5kts.

Two catapults, BS mk4 one waist 199ft, one bow 151ft strokes. Both using 650psi
199ft stroke = 60,000lb to 113kts
151ft stroke = 35,000lb to 126kts

Four wires and mk13 arrestor engines. 30,000lb at 105kts, 35,000lb at 97kts, 40,000lb at 90kts, 45,000lb at 85kts.

Three lifts each to move 40,000lb in 20-25seconds, heavier loads at lower speeds. Each of centerline lift (not actualy centerline but slight biased to one side) 66ft by 44ft, deck edge 66ft by 36ft.

Two 984 radars, and the CDS on twin posidon computers, 48 track version with 8 intercept positions on the two deck AIO design as per Ark Royal. This with DPT.
Secondary short range set Type 992
Surface search set Type 974.
Type 963 CCA
TACAN beacon (AN/URN-3)
F.V.11 (VHF/DF)
IFF mk 10.
Type 176 Sonar.

Which I think is enough to be going on with for now.
 

uk 75

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I think Vanguard to Trident is out of print at the moment, but there is a more recent book
by Eric Grove in paperback on the Royal Navy which is also worth having.

Bigger libraries like the Oxford Westgate have the Vanguard to Trident in their stacks as well
as Decline of British Seapower by Desmond Wettern which I find helpful for its chronological approach and reference to contemporary speculation on what the RN was up to, eg rumours of projects such as the nuclear fleet replenishment ship.

Hope this helps
UK 75
 

Anderman

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Thanks uk 75 do you mean this book

http://www.amazon.de/Royal-Navy-Since-1815-History/dp/0333721268/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books-intl-de&qid=1282056979&sr=1-1 ?

Mh Oxford Westgate is a little far away form germany ;)
 

uk 75

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That's the one, though if you can get the bigger Vanguard to Trident, but I find the paperback worth a read.

I notice that on Amazon Deutschland Decline of British Seapower, Desmond Wettern, 1982
janes info group, is available for 8 Euros or so. This is a useful guide to the post war RN and
has lots of titbits, though some are just lifted from Marine Rundschau!

Alles Gute
UK 75
 

uk 75

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Just a thought. Vanguard to Trident is much more comprehensive and if you are buying in
Germany, it is definitely worth buying this first. The paperback is much later and covers the
whole history of the RN, though with some interesting comments on the Post war RN.

UK 75
 

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How large would had these designs carrier air group be?
Also would they be armoured like the Malta or even by the early 50's armour was deleted altogether?
 

Abraham Gubler

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Tzoli said:
How large would had these designs carrier air group be?
Also would they be armoured like the Malta or even by the early 50's armour was deleted altogether?
DK Brown in "Rebuilding the RN" says the 52 CVA was to be able to launch an aircraft weighing in at 60,000 lbs and recover up to 45,000 lbs. The air wing was undecided but design calculations were based on a complement of 12 strike aircraft (33,000 lbs), 33 day/night fighters (22,000 lbs) and eight ASW aircraft (16,500 lbs). These weights align to those naval aviation requirements that were or became the NA.39 (Buccaneer), NA.113 (Scimitar), NA.114 (night fighter: not progressed) and NA.17 (Gannet). Armour was 2" for the hangar sides and flight deck and 3.5" for the magazines and steering compartment. The ship had a total of 4,665 tons of protection from a total deep displacement of 53,150 tons.
 
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