MiG PAK DP (Prospective Airborne Complex of Long-Range Intercept) Program (MiG-41)

lmaoxd said:
This an actual project? not a ghost one like the mig 1.44? I mean we havent heard anything officially so how do we know its still active?
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Considering russias economic situation (plus having to completely rebuild there army when the Ukraine war finally ends) this is never being built. Russia is already wired wanting to keep interceptor at all but the su-35 frankly fills that role fine (if not perfectly). But Considering the issues russia has been having getting the much cheaper su-75 going (let alone this issues the su-57 line is still having) then simply put russia dose not have the resources for this project, plenty of people to run study's and plans for the pr machine though.
 
I don't see a point for the project because I definitely know they will just push more orders later for Su-57s after the 1st order of 76 and maybe push production on the Su-75 then push for the Su-75 UAVs with further enhanced stealth getting rid of the cockpit. Carriers and 6th gens sound like a cool and fun idea but serve mostly no purpose in this modern day and age because of cheap missiles visiting their locations.
 
Null said:
I don't see a point for the project because I definitely know they will just push more orders later for Su-57s after the 1st order of 76 and maybe push production on the Su-75 then push for the Su-75 UAVs with further enhanced stealth getting rid of the cockpit. Carriers and 6th gens sound like a cool and fun idea but serve mostly no purpose in this modern day and age because of cheap missiles visiting their locations.
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You can't stop tech progress via denial though.
As such, either Russia drops out further down, or world level next generation air program would have to be born.

Su-57 is a (delayed) ~2015 level aircraft. It's already approaching it's 1st major upgrade, i.e. despite slow roll out, it isn't actually that early in it's design cycle.

Su-75/S-70, will likely allow a reasonable ~2030-35 sub-6 level system (no broadband VLO) off the shelf.

But beyond that, something has to begin already. J-36/SY are a thing (friendly aircraft still push the needle), F-47 will appear soon - and it happened more than once that ongoing off the shelf Soviet effort was invalidated by next gen US thing.(Plus likely high up vks has better idea on what exactly f-47 is than we do).
 
ESAV seems to be the closest planform wise to this PAK-DP sketch. As far as russian next generation fighter program, don't forget that iirc as far back as previous decade we had inklings of what they think a 6th gen fighter would look like (see below).

Personally really i would expect PAK-DP and russian 6th gen fighter to be folded under a single program, again planform wise this PAK-DP configuration looks every bit like what we'd expect a 6th gen fighter to look like, except it's larger than known 6th gens. Long range is a main characteristic of 6th gen fighters anyway, a trait Russia greatly desires.
 

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lancer21 said:
ESAV seems to be the closest planform wise to this PAK-DP sketch. As far as russian next generation fighter program, don't forget that iirc as far back as previous decade we had inklings of what they think a 6th gen fighter would look like (see below).

Personally really i would expect PAK-DP and russian 6th gen fighter to be folded under a single program, again planform wise this PAK-DP configuration looks every bit like what we'd expect a 6th gen fighter to look like, except it's larger than known 6th gens. Long range is a main characteristic of 6th gen fighters anyway, a trait Russia greatly desires.
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I don't expect PAK-DP to be significantly bigger than J-36.
 
lmaoxd said:
This an actual project? not a ghost one like the mig 1.44? I mean we havent heard anything officially so how do we know its still active?
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1.44 reached the tech demonstrator prototype stage... so not much of a ghost. In contrast the PAK-DP probably consists of some computer models and wind tunnel studies.
 
That would be in the early days Avimimus, I think that after that the real work begins in taking forward the models and wind tunnel studies and then start to design an actual aircraft around the results.
 
So how many missiles would a 70 ton PAK-DP carry? Considering that the MiG-31M was to have had six long range R-37s for example.
 
Null said:
I don't see a point for the project because I definitely know they will just push more orders later for Su-57s after the 1st order of 76 and maybe push production on the Su-75 then push for the Su-75 UAVs with further enhanced stealth getting rid of the cockpit. Carriers and 6th gens sound like a cool and fun idea but serve mostly no purpose in this modern day and age because of cheap missiles visiting their locations.
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A networked, high speed, high altitude, long range interceptor can contribute significantly to ABM efforts, an important mission profile today and tomorrow.
 
FighterJock said:
So how many missiles would a 70 ton PAK-DP carry? Considering that the MiG-31M was to have had six long range R-37s for example.
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Well, a 65-tonne YF-12 was carrying 3 (or 4 in operational F-12Bs?).

I'm not sure I'd expect to see more than 6x R-37 sized missiles. Maybe 8 on the outside upper end.

But that could mean a dozen or more smaller missiles (AMRAAM-sized).
 
There's no information about wingspan, wing area, overall dimensions, armaments or weight. Little value in discussing fictional aspects.

"Prospective Aviation Complex for Long Range Interception" should give anyone a good hint on why such an aircraft is considered necessary and why it cannot be substituted by existing or other soon to be aviation programs.

On the matter of "why does it take so long?" While the 'PAK DP' has been publicly acknowledged and received funding of various degrees over several years, serious work on the actual development program only took up pace comparatively recently. Furthermore certain systems and components deemed vital for it's development needed to mature first as well.

It's time to wait and see how the program progresses.
 
EmoBirb said:
There's no information about wingspan, wing area, overall dimensions, armaments or weight. Little value in discussing fictional aspects.

"Prospective Aviation Complex for Long Range Interception" should give anyone a good hint on why such an aircraft is considered necessary and why it cannot be substituted by existing or other soon to be aviation programs.

On the matter of "why does it take so long?" While the 'PAK DP' has been publicly acknowledged and received funding of various degrees over several years, serious work on the actual development program only took up pace comparatively recently. Furthermore certain systems and components deemed vital for it's development needed to mature first as well.

It's time to wait and see how the program progresses.
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Do we at least know the engine? is it going to be a derivative of the Mig 31 engine or the Al51? Or a completely new engine entirely. At the end of the day the engine will dictate the timeline of the project more than anything else.
 
In the Perm Design Bureau, the D-102 innovative turbo-ram engine with an autorotating fan was developed for the MIG 301/321.

Turbo-ram engine D-102
Afterburner thrust 30,000 kgf
Compressor diameter 1.3 m
Engine length 6.25 m

But this is a heavy aircraft with a maximum weight of 95 tons
The D30F6 can also be developed with a thrust of 17,000 kgf
An interceptor weighing 70 tons requires two engines with a thrust of up to 22-25 tons or three D30F+ engines...

The TsAGI documents mention the TPK (рус) device in the extended and retracted positions. It is possible that TPK stands for "transport and launch container."
The TPK consists of a "first section," a "second section," and a "side section." It can be assumed that these are the weapon bays, similar to those found on the Su-57
 

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Engine wise, the sketch says 3x Izd. 30 so there is that.

Something i forgot to mention previously, but given russian preference to use the fast MiG-31 as an ALBM carrier, it is likely the same could apply for PAK-DP, and probably one or more ALBMs would be fitted in the bay, hence the large size compared to even J-36. The more i look at it the more PAK-DP looks like a russian specific fightercruiser, just like J-36.
 
Yet another probable three engined fighter in the world lancer21, when the world was just getting used to the idea of the PLAAF J-36.
 
Efficient, high altitude, supercruise is preferable over outright hypersonic speeds. Being able to scramble, loiter and react to incoming attacks is what's expected of a "long range aviation complex for interception". Not hypersonic speeds, which may be beneficial for the missiles carried, but not the manned aircraft itself. Aside from the fact that there is no suitable engine in Russia right now and nowhere near completion in the near or mid term future as well.

The threat of this century is not low flying supersonic bombers, it's stealth bombers launching stand off munitions from close distances, with reduced reaction time. It's ballistic missiles with maneuverable re-entry vehicles, hypersonic glide bodies, satellites feeding intel. PAK DP is meant to address most of these threats as part of the larger IADS of Russia. It won't be a wonder plane that goes Mach 10 and flies exo-atmospheric loopings. It will be exactly what the Russians think they need to replace the MiG-31, counter current and emerging threats and complement the wider VKS during it's ongoing modernization.
 
Speed wise one thing to ponder is whether speeds of Mach 4 as claimed from russian sources would be part of the design specs. Russia is the only country who manufactured routinely large numbers of Mach 3 combat aircraft, so probably the material and manufacturing knowledge/capability is not far off for them. And again to look at China, as known there are very strong hints of them working on some kind of Mach 4 combat aircraft able to carry iirc air to air and air to ground weapons.
 
This is currently the only well-founded and competent article on the topic of PAK DP that has been published in open sources:

Russia Researching Future Interceptor Technologies, New Light Fighters | Aviation Week Network

Efforts are underway to develop a successor to the MiG-31.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com
"Summing up the available information, it can be said that the purpose of the PAK DP is to fight the most demanding air targets, including hypersonic ones as well as low-orbit spacecraft. The aircraft would also fight against threats similar to those targeted by the current MiG-31, such as heavy bombers and strategic cruise missiles. PAK DP is to achieve the same cruising speed as the MiG-31 at 20 km altitude, Mach 2.35, but with a much longer radius of action."
© Piotr Butowski
 
lancer21 said:
Speed wise one thing to ponder is whether speeds of Mach 4 as claimed from russian sources would be part of the design specs. Russia is the only country who manufactured routinely large numbers of Mach 3 combat aircraft, so probably the material and manufacturing knowledge/capability is not far off for them. And again to look at China, as known there are very strong hints of them working on some kind of Mach 4 combat aircraft able to carry iirc air to air and air to ground weapons.
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Most Russia' supposed Mach 3 planes were Mach 2.7 range and didn't fly at those speeds because material creep, degredation of the airframe. MIG25 ripped itself pieces
 
paralay said:
The weapons bay can accommodate 12 izd.810 or 6 long-range air-to-air missiles, or one Dagger or one Ishim
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I would wonder what range would be possible? What fuel fraction? If that much space is being used for internal weapons it would both limit fuel volume for range and increase structural weight.
 
Now it is clear that this is not a hypersonic aircraft. It looks like the Chinese J-36. The propulsion system consists of two izd.30 series engines. The maximum speed is no more than 2,600 km/h, but the cruising speed should be quite high due to the large sweep of the wing.

The maximum weight is 52 tons
range 1430 - 1940 km
range without additional tank 4100 km, with one tank in the compartment 5300 km
 
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