Sukhoi Su-57 flight testing and development

Null said:
hmm thought the long hypersonic missile was already well known.
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feel the context
the ultra-long-range air-to-air missile Izdelie 810 (the presumed index of this already fully developed missile R-47), or a hypersonic strike missile based on it
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So what does that mean for Izdeliye 30 engines? More than a few years away? Probably at least several, because you wouldn't be integrating an interim engine if the final one was just a year or two behind it.
 
totoro said:
So what does that mean for Izdeliye 30 engines? More than a few years away? Probably at least several, because you wouldn't be integrating an interim engine if the final one was just a year or two behind it.
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Sound much like China's decision after AL-31FN/FM engines on the initial J-20 to use the WS-10C as a more capable interim engine until the WS-15 is ready.
 
Wasn't it already kinda established that it's not an interim engine but rather a second option to the AL-51? I can imagine that such choices may as well be motivated by lower cost, with AL-51 having potentially higher cost with performance gains that are not deemed worth the cost. Could also be slipping timelines though. It could also be that the AL-51 will make it's debut with a more severe upgrade program of the entire system. Meaning that we may never see anything that's called Su-57S being equipped with that powerplant.
 
Could be. In China's case that interim engine phase lasted for approximately 6 years (WS10C to WS15)
 
It could be that its taking longer to implement - it could be that they're trying to boost Izd.177 exports or reduce pressure to offer the Izd.30 with the Su-57E... who knows? Maybe they just want to scale 177 production first (given its use on more platforms).
 
Avimimus said:
It could be that its taking longer to implement - it could be that they're trying to boost Izd.177 exports or reduce pressure to offer the Izd.30 with the Su-57E... who knows? Maybe they just want to scale 177 production first (given its use on more platforms).
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probably the simplest reason to be honest. Its taking a lot more time to develop the AL51. Which is sort of normal looking ta engine programs around the world.
 
Deino said:
Sound much like China's decision after AL-31FN/FM engines on the initial J-20 to use the WS-10C as a more capable interim engine until the WS-15 is ready.
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But the AL-31 was only used on the first few prototypes and replacing a foreign design, with a domestic one is yet something else, compared to two domestic interim engines on production aircraft. Considering for how long they are developing the AL-51F, they must have some serious difficulties.
 
Scorpion82 said:
But the AL-31 was only used on the first few prototypes and replacing a foreign design, with a domestic one is yet something else, compared to two domestic interim engines on production aircraft. Considering for how long they are developing the AL-51F, they must have some serious difficulties.
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No, at least the first serial batch - I think even two - are AL-31FN/FM powered
 
Idk who this George guy is, but you definitely should stop listening to claims coming from a guy in twitter, no matter who he claims or is claimed to be.
 
ComradeVortex said:
Su-57 will be equipped with the new Project 177 engine over the next few years.
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in other words, there is going to be a Su-57 separate order soon after 2028 for either the double cockpit or the ones with the 2nd stage engines (no idea if the flat nozzle will be added to those orders later as well)
 
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NovaGA said:
Idk who this George guy is, but you definitely should stop listening to claims coming from a guy in twitter, no matter who he claims or is claimed to be.
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He is a propulsion engineer for UAC but of course you are not going to believe that because you are skeptical of him anyways. Guess we can’t trust anyone on the internet is of any credential background.

There's not much you can do to prove it unless you dox him but here's a post that you can't find anywhere else
https://twitter.com/x/status/2035045521862058025
View: https://x.com/GeorgeN28581/status/2035045521862058025?s=20
 
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Here's an interesting video concerning the Su-57 from the Military Show channel:


Russia’s Su-57 Felon is often promoted as a revolutionary fifth-generation stealth fighter and the pride of the Russian Aerospace Forces. But do the facts support the hype? In this video, we examine Sukhoi’s own patent filings, production data, export failures, stealth performance, and combat realities to uncover the truth behind the Su-57. Is it a genuine rival to the F-35 and F-22, or one of the most overrated fighter jets ever built?​
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The Su-57 programme has a lot of issues to deal with that are hobbling the programme.

Personally I think that the Su-57 is overhyped and while Sukhoi claims it's 5th generation I'd say that it's really an advanced generation 4.5 aircraft.
 
Any 5th gen fighter is a really advanced 4.5 gen one. That's how they were historically born in the first place, with canard-fbw era being abruptly broken by an abrupt increase in LO requirements.
 
Do we really need to have this conversation again? Yes, programs like the F-35 and Su-57 are complex and have delays. Yes, it is a 5th generation fighter if it can get a look-first-shoot-first advantage against fourth generation fighters (signature reduction and possibly super cruise). Yes, '5th generation' is a marketing term... are we done yet?
 
NMaude said:
Personally I think that the Su-57 is overhyped and while Sukhoi claims it's 5th generation I'd say that it's really an advanced generation 4.5 aircraft.
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Even if we play along that it's a 4.5 gen aircraft, it is being used what it is tasked for in a certain war in Europe. A 10 times or more RCS reduction according to patent is also significantly good enough with whatever adversary they are tasked to deal with. F-35 I heard did get hit/damaged for having a brief scuffle with Iran, I take it that Iran is not as well equipped militarily as Ukraine is?

Tell me which of these 2 countries are getting their money's worth for their new aircrafts?
Country A) having 76 brand new aircrafts being used in a major war and after that major war focus their military next possibly towards the middle east and Africa.
Country B) having 1000 brand new aircrafts, most sitting around in hangars, while just having brief scuffles here and there.

A 4.5 gen aircraft is still better than a 4th gen aircraft if most of the situations you are tasked with are to deal with adversaries that use 4th gen aircrafts and receive only 4th gen aircrafts in small numbers.
 
Erdosain said:

Su-57 fighter jet can be used as UAV command center — Rostec​

The Su-57 is currently the only fifth-generation fighter in the world that has proven its effectiveness in all combat scenarios

https://tass.com/defense/2142465
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Let us see ... Su-57 ( after its ''combat debut'' during Feb 2018 ) is used from the very beginning of the Russia-Ukraine war there.Of course we don't have any valuable and precise data/info but the fact is, Su-57 is used in enviroment with intense use of EW and IADS ( very modern and capable western combat systems).

Chinese stealth 5th gen fighters are for now without any combat experience,what about US ones ? US F-22A and US/Isr. F-35 were used against Iran several months ago.A far as I know ,Iran had not IADS 'cause almost all radars of S-300PMU-2 were destroyed before, than several decimetric and metric survaillance radars were also destroyed. That and the incapability of the IRIAF was the reason why USAF and IAF fighters flew practically unhindered in the Iranian airspace or close to.

Of course ,Su-57 isn't the only 5th gen fighter in the world that has proven its effectivennes in all combat scenarios ,simply beacuse real combat scenario will be the real RF-NATO war but something like that will honestly hope never happen.

5th gen or not ? Joke?
Supermaneuverability? Yes. Stealth? Yes. Supercruise? Very possible during real,practical even combat usage.

Avionics: eight AESA radars (four centimetric,four decimetric), nine optical electronic modules ,real combat defensive lasers ,highest level sensor fusion ,etc etc...

Weapons : only serial/operational 5th gen stealth fighter with the (very) long range weaponry,AAM's and ASM's ( tactical cruise missiles and ARM's/ASM's) .

And yes, Su-57D will be the UAV/UCAV and some weapon assets command center just as for the tactical/combat group of Su-57's.

What is Su-57 really capable of, that thing for sure knows Sergey Bogdan and his colleagues from the OKB Sukhoi ,general Radik Bariyev and his subordinates from the 929 GLITs in Akhtubinsk AB ,of course VKS fighter-pilots from the operational units.
 
Erdosain said:
"The Best Machine in the World": Vladimir Putin on the Su-57 Fighter

Russian President Vladimir Putin called the Russian fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet the best in the world and confirmed Russia's readiness to work with India on this aircraft. TASS explains why it's so good.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/27477483
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Russian military analysts openly challenge Putin’s Su-57 praise​

Key Points
  • Russian military analyst Maksim Kalashnikov publicly challenged Putin's claim that the Su-57 is the world's best fighter, citing its limited role in Ukraine compared to Israeli F-35 combat operations against Iran.
  • Russian military commentators noted the Su-57 has not achieved air superiority over Ukraine and cited engine, avionics, and stealth shortfalls as reasons it lacks true fifth-generation status.
https://defence-blog.com/russian-military-analysts-openly-challenge-putins-su-57-praise/
 
Given that the F-35 was hit by modest anti-air in essentially broad daylight ("there was no air defense") I don't think making a comparison between Su-57 in Ukraine vs F-35 in Iran is favorable for the single engine strike fighter. Su-57s conducted various strikes while also flying in a counter-air role as well as serving in the role of testing experimental UCAVs under combat conditions. Mind you, the Su-57 is heavily involved despite there being around 50 serial aircraft. While there are several hundred F-35s operated by the US and Israel against Iran. Which ultimately achieved very little, as Iran posessed more than 2/3 of their entire missile stock and launch platforms when the ceasefire came into action. One would expect the premier stealthy SEAD asset to have a higher impact and pick apart missile systems, be it SAM systems or ballistic missiles. But that never came to pass.

Even blowing up the turbine hall of Trypilska TPP with Kh-69 alone was a more impressive showing of long range, uncontested, precision strike against high value targets. But perhaps the measurements for succesful A2G operations these days are school girls killed and not high value assets destroyed.

The Su-57 is ultimately restrained by being only a small portion of the VKS fleet, the majority of the war is fought by the Su-35, Su-34, Su-30 as well as aircraft like the Su-25, Su-24 and MiG-31. The F-35 isn't restrained in a similar manner yet achieved less impressive results.
 
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Tankie cope is the funniest cope, but then again they long ago figured out that a Potemkin superweapon that you never actually use will forever be superior to its obviously inferior western counterparts... that actually do missions.
 
JS23 said:
Tankie cope is the funniest cope, but then again they long ago figured out that a Potemkin superweapon that you never actually use will forever be superior to its obviously inferior western counterparts... that actually do missions.
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I am no Russian fanboy, but I think it's objectively fair to say the Su-57 has done far more combat sorties facing off against far more capable and dangerous systems than the F-22 or J-20 ever did.
I don't follow the news all that closely, and I'm pretty sure a lot of it won't be public for a while, but I'm sure in Ukraine a lot has happened we don't yet know about that either validates or challenges the Su-57s capabilities in real combat.
 
Hull down said:
You actually hit the nail on the head here. “opinion.” Because facts are increasingly discarded and personally bias / fantasies are put forth instead
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There's almost no facts on specific Su-57 ops out in the open circulation.

It is stupid on Ru MOD part (as if Ukraine won't know), but it's what it is.
 
EmoBirb said:
Given that the F-35 was hit by modest anti-air in essentially broad daylight ("there was no air defense") I don't think making a comparison between Su-57 in Ukraine vs F-35 in Iran is favorable for the single engine strike fighter. Su-57s conducted various strikes while also flying in a counter-air role as well as serving in the role of testing experimental UCAVs under combat conditions. Mind you, the Su-57 is heavily involved despite there being around 50 serial aircraft. While there are several hundred F-35s operated by the US and Israel against Iran. Which ultimately achieved very little, as Iran posessed more than 2/3 of their entire missile stock and launch platforms when the ceasefire came into action. One would expect the premier stealthy SEAD asset to have a higher impact and pick apart missile systems, be it SAM systems or ballistic missiles. But that never came to pass.

Even blowing up the turbine hall of Trypilska TPP with Kh-69 alone was a more impressive showing of long range, uncontested, precision strike against high value targets. But perhaps the measurements for succesful A2G operations these days are school girls killed and not high value assets destroyed.

The Su-57 is ultimately restrained by being only a small portion of the VKS fleet, the majority of the war is fought by the Su-35, Su-34, Su-30 as well as aircraft like the Su-25, Su-24 and MiG-31. The F-35 isn't restrained in a similar manner yet achieved less impressive results.
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In my view, both arguments can be true. You are absolutely right with your assessment of the Su-57's performance in the War in Ukraine though. Relative to its fleet size, the Su-57 has been immensely effective, but it has also been employed carefully so as not to reveal much of its operational performance to NATO through Ukraine. It is meant to be the tip of the Russian spear for the next 20+ years, after all...

TBF, the war over Iranian airspace does not/did not require deep stealth penetration by hundreds of LO aircraft, given the strategy pursued by Israel and later followed by the US. Israel dismantled much of Iran's long-range "I"-ADS' by launching ALBMs from Iraqi airspace last year and opened a corridor; and whatever remained was struck hard as soon as this year's campaign began. At this point, all Iran can reliably intercept and shoot down are MALE UAVs and rarely manned aircraft... They still have some medium-range batteries dispersed throughout the countryside, but those either shoot and scoot or remain in hiding...

We don't have access to the aerial picture over Iran during the opening hours of the war, nor do we know how many sorties the F-22s and F-35s actually flew. What we do know is that, to nobody's surprise, Iran managed to score an opportunistic hit on an F-35 with an IR-guided SHORAD missile, injuring the pilot and forcing the aircraft into a crash-landing. And contrary to what CENTCOM claims publicly, the damage was indeed severe enough to render the aircraft a write-off.

JS23 said:
Tankie cope is the funniest cope, but then again they long ago figured out that a Potemkin superweapon that you never actually use will forever be superior to its obviously inferior western counterparts... that actually do missions.
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You see, @EmoBirb actually supported her position with a detailed and well-argued post, whereas all you managed to do was dismiss it as "tankie cope." I wonder which argument a non-ideological third party would find more convincing...
 
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A handful of Su-57s have performed a handful of combat sorties launching cruise missiles far beyond the line of contact because it is not capable of operating near or inside contested airspace. Nor do they have competent enough C2 to permit such operations.

The F-35 has conducted SEAD, BAI, and lead strikes against nearly the same models of soviet air defenses that Su-57s or the VKS cannot seam to punch through.

As for the F-35 hit, it’s expected. When you are flying an extremely large volume of aircraft directly over and deep inside airspace its only a matter of time.
 

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