India's 5th generation fighter programme - from MCA to AMCA

[Scott Kenny]

Something someone said comes to mind today. For things where there are absolutely NO options like space or nuclear or strategic assets like missiles etc India tends to do pretty well but the moment you have a system which has foreign alternatives the import lobby comes into play and stalls and delays projects at multiple levels. Its seen in sooo many different things including infrastructure projects.

So you find a couple of obnoxious import lobbyists to arrest for legitimate crimes...

And a social media campaign about how importing makes the country poorer when compared with buying domestic production.

This seems to ultimately be correct, the focus should be on buying an existing foreign aircraft and actually sticking with it instead of having a mixed force of several different aircraft from every corner of the world. It is very clear that India can not create a domestic aircraft.

You're looking at two separate issues.

Early on, India didn't have the industry or political power (and didn't want to remain in the UK/US orbit). So they were doing the typical minor-power dance buying items from a bunch of countries. See what Indonesia is doing for an example, as well as the Persian Gulf countries. Yes, this is more expensive than buying from a single power. But it also doesn't lock you into an alliance with that one power.

But you also need to do things to build your own industries up as the GDP increases (especially GDP per capita). And that's where India has consistently fumbled the ball. So consistently I'm getting the feeling that the import lobby are active enemy agents, not just useful idiots.

 

[Ainen]

So you find a couple of obnoxious import lobbyists to arrest for legitimate crimes...

And a social media campaign about how importing makes the country poorer when compared with buying domestic production

Second approach is going on, it's a core national policy (that's the entire make in India thing).
The problem with the first one is that India would end up without air force if it was to stick to that...
Tejas mk.1A is still not delivered.

Rafale deal isn't charity, it's the only way (unless they want to repeat the entire negotiating cycle to get... another imported aircraft). With two recent conflagrations, it's just not feasible. India already paid badly by delaying available Russian MKI upgrades in favor of super MKI.

It's advanced and domestic; but as a result, both in 2019 and in 2025, they fought in more or less their 2001 state.

 

[Ainen]

- AMCA is 5gen tandem bi-plane but MWF & TEDBF are 4gen delta canard & could be treated like X-29, X-31, Mirage-4000, learn & movingon to evolve into 5+gen. But in emerging 6gen era their designers wanna see their 4gen babies fly at any cost.

Given how MWF and TEDBF move in parallel to AMCA (TEDBF, in fact, started later), it produces certain reservations about the scale of the AMCA project, to be honest.
It means that the Indian Navy (which is arguably the best managed among the Indian armed forces branches) doesn't feel it will end up with a significantly inferior product than the air force.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

Given how MWF and TEDBF move in parallel to AMCA (TEDBF, in fact, started later), it produces certain reservations about the scale of the AMCA project, to be honest.
It means that the Indian Navy (which is arguably the best managed among the Indian armed forces branches) doesn't feel it will end up with a significantly inferior product than the air force.

This is 1 of the big problems i mentioned when people try to link AF & Navy projects, make them inter-dependent when it's not 2 versions of same jet like F-35, J-31/35. But like F-35-C & J-35, a N-AMCA could have been designed. In fact, AMCA went through 9 iterations from 3B-01 to 3B-09, when AMCA still on paper/CAD, that iteration can continue for N-AMCA.
AFAIK from internet search & other forums, after AMCA started, IN also wanted 5gen jet but ADA denied & convinced them for 4gen TEDBF. At Aero-India 2025 IN indicated 5gen TEDBF. Some people say that it's for CATOBAR IAC, but after comparing size/span of 4gen TEDBF with AMCA, F-35-C it looks like a 5gen TEDBF can be made for STOBAR too.
So either a 5gen TEDBF transformed from delta-canard 4gen TEDBF, or a N-AMCA can still be made in era of supercomputing, robotics, AI/ML, all of which Inida has.

 

[Ainen]

There are literally 30 airframes of the mk1a sitting in hangars right now because GE is facing issues with the production of the F404.

The LCA mk2 prototype is literally sitting in a hangar right now. But no one knows when the damn thing will fly because once again HAL fumbled.

On LCA mk 2, HAL or GE?
If it's GE, AMCA and TEDBF will encounter exact same problems LCA mk 1 had since the 1990s.

 

[lmaoxd]

HAL. that one is pure incompetence and everyone involved knows it. Which is precisely why things changed. the engine itself is delivered and is probably alr integrated with the aircraft(considering how many independent people have said that the prototype is fully finished and sitting in the hangar). The iron bird testing has taken wayyy more time than they seem to have expected .

On LCA mk 2, HAL or GE?
If it's GE, AMCA and TEDBF will encounter exact same problems LCA mk 1 had since the 1990s.

Mk1a also has its own shade of HAL incompetence mixed in but the GE engine delay is the main issue now. TEDBEF is a paper program that wont happen(the rafale fullfills its place relatively well). The IN has alr indicated that if its going to get a new aircraft, it would rather wait more time for a 5th gen then get a 4th gen that it alr has direct access to.

Ideally there shouldn't be engine manufacturing issues with the GE414 considering its still in production for multiple aircraft.

 

[lmaoxd]

Skipping generations are commercial words, especially with EU (see latest news in FCAS thread).

There's indeed an obvious barrier between 4 and 5 generations, but it got far less obvious and one-sided over time. Which is why it is so interesting to watch, what will eventually come out of TEDBF.
AMCA in all likelihood won't be a magic improvement over MWF and TEDBF. It'll have advantages, it'll have disadvantages. But core mission equipment (sensors, weapons) will be on the same level.

that was the point of the tejas mk2, it has great sensor commonality with the AMCA so developing sensors for it concurrently develops things for the AMCA as well. probably around 50%. TEDBF isnt happening and even if it did it would probably share things with the mk2.

 

[Ainen]

that was the point of the tejas mk2, it has great sensor commonality with the AMCA so developing sensors for it concurrently develops things for the AMCA as well. probably around 50%. TEDBF isnt happening and even if it did it would probably share things with the mk2.

Then there's no that much of a difference between all 3; they're concurrent programs with relative merits. For instance, few of the currently developed Indian weapons are meant for bays. Which in general means, that MWF won't be any worse at their employment, and TEDBF may have substantial advantages(carrier capability; likely substantially better range and endurance).

I guess Indian navy does want to have TEDBF dead, and just order more Rafales. But either way, a 4th gen aircraft is seen viable. Even one that probably won't be compatible with future indian LW efforts.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

The chinese used the Soviet break up very well to get their hands on technology. India didn't and missed out on RD-33 and eventually the AI-9500F for the Tejas.

They should've funded the co-development of a new RD-33 version or AI-9500F with IP rights from Ukraine as soon as they proved that they could develop afterburning turbofans.

So many missed opportunities.

Mistakes of Indian MoD/DoD -
- Import culture
- Not funding GTRE
- Basing 3 projects on same foreign engine.
- Not using AL-31 & RD-93 for TD of AMCA & AHCA like China did.
- After FC-31, not starting 5gen TEDBF.
- Not giving geometric treatment to MWF & TEDBF when DRDO was making RAM, RAS, EW components, etc. bcoz AMCA alone can't be the only stealth jet & UCAV R&D is sluggish, this can encourage Su-75 as stopgap.
- Linear interdependent approach for AF+navy rather than independent & parallel.
- Not using drones, scaled-down models, business jets, cargo planes, etc for testbed to test components but use component commonality as excuse to make brand new 4gen.

Bcoz AMCA still on paper/CAD, gone through 9 iterations, can still be iterated for IN. Or that 4gen TEDBF itself has identical span compared to F-35-C, J-35, which can be navalised.

 

[Ainen]

Bcoz AMCA still on paper/CAD, gone through 9 iterations, can still be iterated for IN. Or that 4gen TEDBF itself has identical span compared to F-35-C, J-35, which can be navalised.

J-35 has way more power.
F-35C is built around 1 engine (substantial internal volume savings).
AMCA is a ground based aircraft, built around ~same powerplant as Superhornet, but with a bay. This is important, as, to this day, Indian aircraft seem to be mostly limited by available power, and AMCA is certainly not making things easier with a bay. Adding more low altitude control, maritime sealing, deck reinforcement and tougher chassis won't make things easier.

Add in the need for effective (in an oversimplified way - with drop tanks and ability to return back with stores unused) carriage of stand off munitions (domestic: Brahmos-MA, Rudram; international: Israeli ballistics). Note, that not only TEDBF doesn't carry over these problems&much easier to set up in lightened deck configuration, you in principle can take a shot at Brahmos-A(ER) with it.

My point is, TEDBF no bay decision likely wasn't taken uninformed...

 

[Low IQ Techie]

J-35 has way more power.
F-35C is built around 1 engine (substantial internal volume savings).
AMCA is a ground based aircraft, built around ~same powerplant as Superhornet, but with a bay. This is important, as, to this day, Indian aircraft seem to be mostly limited by available power, and AMCA is certainly not making things easier with a bay. Adding more low altitude control, maritime sealing, deck reinforcement and tougher chassis won't make things easier.

Add in the need for effective (in an oversimplified way - with drop tanks and ability to return back with stores unused) carriage of stand off munitions (domestic: Brahmos-MA, Rudram; international: Israeli ballistics). Note, that not only TEDBF doesn't carry over these problems&much easier to set up in lightened deck configuration, you in principle can take a shot at Brahmos-A(ER) with it.

My point is, TEDBF no bay decision likely wasn't taken uninformed...

I understand all the points, hence i compared F-18 SH & F-35-C with 4gen TEDBF in its thread diagramatically & numerically & IMO a 5gen TEDBF or N-AMCA can be made. If i had 3D CAD PC i'ld have shown it better than 2D edits in MS Paint.

> Pattern noticed is that -
- While CATOBAR jets with catapult assist have ATWR range in 0.6X, or relatively more weight, less thrust.
- STOBAR jets need more ATWR in range of 0.7X, or more thrust, less weight.
- To tweak TEDBF into 5+G design this ATWR range & CLW range will have to be maintained.

Team wor succeeds only when whoever can think better is allowed to proceed, but bureaucracy & govt. job pride, heirarchy,etc have stopped employees to handle their career, overtake others or even express self w/o senior approval.
USA, Russia, China, capitalists & communists, have multiple designers & manufacturers.
If Indian PPP wan't to succeed then there cannot be proxy war b/w private & public sectors, thinking that engineers in one are better than other.

 

[lmaoxd]

J-35 has way more power.
F-35C is built around 1 engine (substantial internal volume savings).
AMCA is a ground based aircraft, built around ~same powerplant as Superhornet, but with a bay. This is important, as, to this day, Indian aircraft seem to be mostly limited by available power, and AMCA is certainly not making things easier with a bay. Adding more low altitude control, maritime sealing, deck reinforcement and tougher chassis won't make things easier.

Add in the need for effective (in an oversimplified way - with drop tanks and ability to return back with stores unused) carriage of stand off munitions (domestic: Brahmos-MA, Rudram; international: Israeli ballistics). Note, that not only TEDBF doesn't carry over these problems&much easier to set up in lightened deck configuration, you in principle can take a shot at Brahmos-A(ER) with it.

My point is, TEDBF no bay decision likely wasn't taken uninformed...

Well TECHNICALLY speaking the AMCA is also being built for a 120-140KN powerplant as well But that's 7-8B engine deal is still under negotiations or what not. The defence minister did specifically state Safran in some way but we still dont know because RR still has a chance and seems relatively confident that all is not lost.

The only thing we do know for sure is that any engine developed under such a deal is aiming to be 120KN for the first version and extended to 140KN for the final. And that the AMCA is the main aircraft for this engine although it could also be used for future aircraft or reterofitted into the tejas mk2(if they left any space for it and designed for it which I doubt considering the aircrafts size and development date)

The aim is for the GE414 version to be your initial version to get the aircraft into the air relatively quickly and get the first 1 or 2 squadrons. Similar to what China did with the AL31s/WS10 before transitioning to the WS15. or the su57 is doing today.
Whether this aim is actually achieved is something I have no way to predict considering the complexity of jet engine development and negotiations.

 

[Ainen]

The only thing we do know for sure is that any engine developed under such a deal is aiming to be 120KN for the first version and extended to 140KN for the final. And that the AMCA is the main aircraft for this engine although it could also be used for future aircraft or reterofitted into the tejas mk2(if they left any space for it and designed for it which I doubt considering the aircrafts size and development date)

The aim is for the GE414 version to be your initial version to get the aircraft into the air relatively quickly and get the first 1 or 2 squadrons. Similar to what China did with the AL31s/WS10 before transitioning to the WS15. or the su57 is doing today.
Whether this aim is actually achieved is something I have no way to predict considering the complexity of jet engine development and negotiations.

Well, both WS-15 and AL-51 were started early enough, and yet, as you can see, to this day, both are powered by their original engines.
It means that for now, the realistic engine is F414.

If India wants any degree of safety, it should plan for other imports rather than domestic one (which is honestly aspirational...and honestly I would be very surprised if cooperation with Safran will result in anything independent).
All other engines are weaker.

 

[lmaoxd]

Well, both WS-15 and AL-51 were started early enough, and yet, as you can see, to this day, both are powered by their original engines.
It means that for now, the realistic engine is F414.

If India wants any degree of safety, it should plan for other imports rather than domestic one (which is honestly aspirational...and honestly I would be very surprised if cooperation with Safran will result in anything independent).
All other engines are weaker.

But which engine satisfies said requirements? WS19 is the only one lmao and that is for obvious reasons not going to happen.

I agree that the GE414 is going to be the main engine for quite a while even after, I was just talking about the aspirational plans or what not the MoD has.

India lacks the testing capabiity or its engines and while a few facilities have been commisioned in the last 2 years and a few more are getting built today solving the ground testing part of the issue a full flight test bed is still a massive issue for which India has to continually send its engines to russia. some proposals have been submitted to try and use the su30mki as one part of the FTB cycle similar to what the US did in the past with f15 buts that just a proposal.

 

[Ainen]

But which engine satisfies said requirements? WS19 is the only one lmao and that is for obvious reasons not going to happen.

I agree that the GE414 is going to be the main engine for quite a while even after, I was just talking about the aspirational plans or what not the MoD has.

India lacks the testing capabiity or its engines and while a few facilities have been commisioned in the last 2 years and a few more are getting built today solving the ground testing part of the issue a full flight test bed is still a massive issue for which India has to continually send its engines to russia. some proposals have been submitted to try and use the su30mki as one part of the FTB cycle similar to what the US did in the past with f15 buts that just a proposal.

Yes, that's the problem. And I guess that's one of the reasons why non-bay TEDBF appeared.

J-35 comes with J-15T (there's another aircraft to carry big things), and F-35 comes with F-18E/F (which aren't terribly better at carrying things, but at least there's a ton of them).

For India, it would've been ideal if Rafale took the role: AMCA-N + Rafale, clean and tidy.
But (1)it's French, and the integration of competing international systems is subject to procrastination, especially when some of the most core weapon options involve Russia (Brahmos), and (2)AMCA-N is apparently a very troublesome proposal.

TEDBF covers both, and in principle can be later useful as ORCA.

 

[FighterJock]

But how long would it take India to design a navalised AMCA? It has taken India forever to design the basic land based variant.

 

[Geo]

But which engine satisfies said requirements?

This is a big chance for India. Scaled Down version of 177/177S. But unlikely for political reasons
.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

But how long would it take India to design a navalised AMCA? It has taken India forever to design the basic land based variant.

As an IT engineer i also think that if non-techies with CAD skills can make such pretty designs, very close to reality with correctable mistakes, then how long a team of professional aero-engineers with industrial grade servers, mainframe, AI assistance would take to do CAD, CFD, etc.
From cutaway diagrams everybody knows the basic & some special components of 5gen jets.
F-35-A Vs C gives good idea of volume/weight increase.
Superimposing F-35-C & J-35 over AMCA will also give good visual idea of changes needed.

 

[Reddington777]

If i had 3D CAD PC i'ld have shown it better than 2D edits in MS Paint.

Blender runs on just about anything unless you use subdivision surfaces. You may need to do things by hand (and the math stuff outside of blender) but it and the huge number of plugins that afford some CAD - like functionality would ve enough for visualization. Without the full suite of CADs, it just takes a little more manual manipulation and work to get a visualization.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

This is a big chance for India. Scaled Down version of 177/177S. But unlikely for political reasons
View attachment 814912.

No need to scale the engine down when future'll need more fuel, weapons, sensors. So take Iz-177 & inflate AMCA.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

Blender runs on just about anything unless you use subdivision surfaces. You may need to do things by hand (and the math stuff outside of blender) but it and the huge number of plugins that afford some CAD - like functionality would ve enough for visualization. Without the full suite of CADs, it just takes a little more manual manipulation and work to get a visualization.

Few months back i started installing Blender version from newest to lower ones until it ran. So V2.6b is compatible with a warning. I hope it won't crash or hang. But not getting time to play with it.

 

[Geo]

We haven’t even finished inflating Tejas yet, and we’re already inflating AMCA.
Is it just me, or is this kind of hype typical of Indian discourse?

 

[Low IQ Techie]

We haven’t even finished inflating Tejas yet, and we’re already inflating AMCA.
Is it just me, or is this kind of hype typical of Indian discourse?

What's so hype about increasing size of something comapred to some radical cleansheet design?
It's the easiest/laziest way, if that's also hype then what's easy?
Basically it'll look like F-22 with DSI.

 

[Ainen]

What's so hype about increasing size of something comapred to some radical cleansheet design?
It's the easiest/laziest way, if that's also hype then what's easy?
Basically it'll look like F-22 with DSI.

MWF is a new aircraft more or less...and AMCA is anything but radical. Given how close their timelines are, they're effectively a HiLo pair.
With the caveat that there's an even smaller Mk. 1a, and it isn't far from them in terms of equipment either.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

MWF is a new aircraft more or less...and AMCA is anything but radical. Given how close their timelines are, they're effectively a HiLo pair.
With the caveat that there's an even smaller Mk. 1a, and it isn't far from them in terms of equipment either.

Sometimes i'm also nostalgic but I don't care about obsolete 4gen in emerging era of 6gen.
MWF needs to be made stealth otherwise Su-75 stopgap import is coming.
A future jet needs to be good both in & out. If it's visible on the outside then best latest avionics also won't save it.
Anybody who desires their 5/6gen to kill enemy's 4gen, it goes reverse too. 4gen jets'll be most visible target practice objects in sky, suited for some brooming, mopping.

 

[Ainen]

Sometimes i'm also nostalgic but I don't care about obsolete 4gen in emerging era of 6gen.
MWF needs to be made stealth otherwise Su-75 stopgap import is coming.
A future jet needs to be good both in & out. If it's visible on the outside then best latest avionics also won't save it.
Anybody who desires their 5/6gen to kill enemy's 4gen, it goes reverse too. 4gen jets'll be most visible target practice objects in sky, suited for some brooming, mopping.

Su-75 is not coming soon, and in any case, it's an aircraft directly comparable to AMCA (same 26-27t MTOW).
MWF is more or less a Gripen E(i.e., adaptation of light fighter for strike role beyond the edge of the airfield). It is not a 1st day aircraft; as such, it is likely substantially cheaper in operation.

 

[FighterJock]

I will be highly surprised if the prototype of the Su-75 makes it's first flight next year Ainen.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

Su-75 is not coming soon, and in any case, it's an aircraft directly comparable to AMCA (same 26-27t MTOW).
MWF is more or less a Gripen E. It is not a 1st day aircraft; as such, it is likely substantially cheaper in operation.

Yeah it's not coming SOON till IAF looking to join 6gen will start crying about 4gen MWF, like crying now about AMCA delay & looking at possible Su-57 stopgap & IN have been crying on 4gen TEDBF.
When we add some weapons to Grippen like jet, then it becomes comparable to Su-75 like jet in clean config.
Although India is socialist, not capitalist, still quality comes with price. In tech based war cheap obsolete things get people killed.

 

[lmaoxd]

Yes, that's the problem. And I guess that's one of the reasons why non-bay TEDBF appeared.

J-35 comes with J-15T (there's another aircraft to carry big things), and F-35 comes with F-18E/F (which aren't terribly better at carrying things, but at least there's a ton of them).

For India, it would've been ideal if Rafale took the role: AMCA-N + Rafale, clean and tidy.
But (1)it's French, and the integration of competing international systems is subject to procrastination, especially when some of the most core weapon options involve Russia (Brahmos), and (2)AMCA-N is apparently a very troublesome proposal.

TEDBF covers both, and in principle can be later useful as ORCA.

ORCA was a proposal, never went beyond it and is dead, even TEDBF has more weight behind it.

AMCA N cant even be called AMCA because if its ever designed it needs to be a new cleansheet design. Which will take far too much time to start now.

India is vastly better off trying to team up with france for a FCAS like jet since the requirements sort of match(only sort of, considering the difference btw CATOBAR and STOBAR which can only be changed if India wants to start building a CATOBAR carrier). Building a CVN is a clearly stated goal but that is At Least 15 or so more from now.

Man this discussion of hypothetical this or hypothetical that is starting to get very boring.

Lets first get the AMCA in the air and the MWF certified and revisit this topic in the far future if needed. Ill update this thread if there is anything important to note. Bye.

 

[Ainen]

The more general problem here is not even capability, but also plain just numbers.

Indians rushed to withdraw Bison squadrons from service. And while yes, their safety record was abysmal, they were withdrawn effectively unreplaced, with a huge hole in the order of battle.

More broadly, they allowed IAF for several decades to maintain viable two theater stance via sufficient forward presence of short range light fighters and fighter-bombers, allowing the core force actual freedom of maneuver.

Until LCAs go online in significant numbers, force is now deprived enough to forward deploy on currently threatened axis. If it's two threatened axises (which is base scenario for IAF planning), it is immediately defense in depth only, with an urgent matter of countering stealth penetration;
Against these circumstances, AMCA (which is LO multirole, i.e. offensive/strike specialist) is not just coming late. It's both late and sort of too early, as there are far more pressing concerns and funding priorities at the moment.

An elegant idea, which appears somewhat optimistic in light of LCA and MWF delays.

 

[Life of Tyo]

It seems AMCA is conducting Test at AFA (Air Force Academy) in Dundigal coordinates 17.674359,78.390435

 

[lmaoxd]

It seems AMCA is conducting Test at AFA (Air Force Academy) in Dundigal coordinates 17.674359,78.390435

Possible non flight testing of RCS and what not ig.
I think i might be seeing engines attached when I zoom in but that could also be hallucinations or artifacts from zooming in.

 

[Deino]

Possible non flight testing of RCS and what not ig.
I think i might be seeing engines attached when I zoom in but that could also be hallucinations or artifacts from zooming in.

Never ever a flyable prototype, at best an empty shell or simple mock up

 

[lmaoxd]

Never ever a flyable prototype, at best an empty shell or simple mock up


View attachment 814960View attachment 814961View attachment 814962

Oh i never said it was flying, but it could have a mockup engine mount for RCS testing anyway.

yep, looks like this is furthur along the runway, looks like RCS testing. Not my img pulled it from reddit.
Could also be the AMCA mockup made for Aero India 2025

 

[lancer21]

The clearer images are odd, are we sure those are not AI? The plane seems single engined. At least is the blurry pic confirmed to be genuine?

 

[SuperShark]

The clearer images are odd, are we sure those are not AI? The plane seems single engined. At least is the blurry pic confirmed to be genuine?

Looks like AI has had a crack at upscaling it and lost a lot of information in artifacting.

 

[Anduriel]

India already paid badly by delaying available Russian MKI upgrades in favor of super MKI.

Wait, there were Russian MKI upgrades? What they entailed?

 

[Ainen]

Wait, there were Russian MKI upgrades? What they entailed?

Well, Russian sources say that India almost with disgust declined small radar backend update with RVV-BD offer(apparently mirror to SM2) back in 2018.

Idea was probably that meteor covers the immediate requirement, and then there's supersukhoi with astra mk234 just over that ridge.

 

[Gessler]

Oh i never said it was flying, but it could have a mockup engine mount for RCS testing anyway.
View attachment 814995
yep, looks like this is furthur along the runway, looks like RCS testing. Not my img pulled it from reddit.
Could also be the AMCA mockup made for Aero India 2025

Yea this model is at the ORANGE facility (Open Range RCS test) outside Hyderabad.

 

[Gessler]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1955112790747910573

View: https://x.com/manishindiatv/status/1955112790747910573?t=N6TADi8nZwKTlBfh0PeMng&s=19

Some screengrabs from that video and others like it, found on various forums & social media: