India's 5th generation fighter programme - from MCA to AMCA

[lmaoxd]

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...me-up-in-puttaparthi/article70951422.ece/amp/

The foundation stone has been laid, since its private-led construction should be a lot faster.


Im a LOT more optimistic about this program cause the gov is finally moving away from HAL to create a new aerospace giant, there might even be 2 aerospace giants with Tata and the L&T consortium. We also have the rafale deal which will most likely be a deal with Tata for the local production version considering Dassault & Tata alr have a deal to produce the fuselages.

HAL will most prolly be the main facility for the LCA program and the su30 program, maybe even the su57 program(if any large scale deal is signed). to be fair to HAL though according to reports there are alr 36-40 LCA tejas mk1a airframes sitting idle fully completed apart from the engines because GE has been abysmal.

so 2-3(maybe even 4 if the 3rd consortium with bharat forge stays for other aircraft like transport etc) aerospace giants to foster competition. the next 10 or so years will be very interesting(but tbf that's applicable to India as a whole)

schedule right now for the AMCA is 2028 prototype with late 2028 FF with all prototypes done by 2031 or so. and 2033 ish would be the start of serial production with first squadron of 18 by 2035-6. seems relatively normal schedule wise but depends heavily on the execution of the private defence consortiums.

The main issue right now is the GE414 deal.

 

[lmaoxd]

What y'all are not getting is that India is hopelessly outmatched by China in any contingency (whether economically, geopolitically, industrially, or technologically) that doesn't involve an all-out invasion of India proper - even the combined US military and certain allies in the Pacific could not defeat China for certain by themselves. So instead of pursuing a China policy that actively provokes them, trying to find areas of common interest is in everyone's interest.

China does indeed enjoy arming Pakistan to "contain" India and keep it busy, but it is also in India's interest to face Pakistan occasionally rather than China itself.

Dozens of billions of dollars worth of investment in arms are dead investments in any scenario that doesn't involve armed conflict, and as such, those funds could be better utilized to further develop the country. For a still-developing country, it makes far more sense to invest in development than in escalation. As long as neither side is ruled by retards, finding common ground is far easier than starting a costly war or conflict.

China is not going to war with India lmao, it looses much much more than it could ever hope to gain from winning a conflict. People also seem to forget something very important, the himalayas.
All chinese airbases in tibet operate at high altitude, this is a VERY significant penalty to the aircraft. They might be able to carry their weapons and then refuel in the air but that adds vulnerability. War is not only fought with numbers but also sortie rate and sortie rates from those high altitude bases will be abysmal. India also has a lot more airbases near the Sino-Indo border than China in tibet.( 7 vs at minimum 14 permanent and probably 30+ in a war considering other not permanently stationed bases that will be quickly converted for use).
Indian bases also operate at a significantly lower altitude because the himalayas rise directly from the plains while China has the high altitude tibetian region.
This is not including AD and and other sensors India is developing to combat stealth like PCLR, UHF band, photonic radars etc and AD.
Land invasion against a prepared India across the himalayas is stupid to say the least, especially when your going against an army that is probably the most experienced on the planet in terms of high altitude combat.

Stealth isnt a silver bullet, the Su57 or the AMCA wont change the equation vs China in any way near term. India will be at a significant disadvantage for the next 20 or so years just like China was vs the US when it started to grow.

Pakistan will remain the thorn in India side, but even pakistan isnt really as big of an issue considering the vast economic disparity that will only continue to grow since India is growing at a much faster rate while being an economy 10x the size. What India needs right now is sustainable and quick growth that's not only infrastructure led but also consumption led(which it is doing right now but things could be better and with the reforms getting implemented should get better)

 

[Yellowflash]

How would you compare the AMCA to the KAAN and J-35?

 

[snne]

How would you compare the AMCA to the KAAN and J-35?

Well... they actually fly...

 

[Yellowflash]

Well... they actually fly...

yeah but actual in-depth capability?

 

[Tomboy]

yeah but actual in-depth capability?

Its very hard to compare something that doesn't exists to something that do

 

[FighterJock]

Quite right Tomboy.

 

[Yellowflash]

Its very hard to compare something that doesn't exists to something that do

Fair enough

 

[snne]

yeah but actual in-depth capability?

Kaan is a heavy-class fighter, comparable to the F-22 or J-20; whereas the J-35(A) is a medium-class fighter that is essentially a twin-engine counterpart to the F-35(A/C), optimized more for air-to-air engagements due to different operational requirements. Airframe-wise however, the J-35(A) is arguably more comparable to the KF-21 than to the F-35 aside from its forward fuselage (canopy, ram air intake and DSI) and wings.

Kaan has completed two test flights with its technology demonstrator and is about to begin an intensive flight-testing campaign with new prototypes, whereas the J-35(A) has already entered service with PLANAF/PLAAF.

When the AMCA materializes, it will likely be most comparable to the KF-21B3, assuming the latter receives funding...

 

[Geo]

If we are to be objective and compare two tactical combat aircraft that became operational at the same period, then based on publicly available data, observations, and expert analysis, we can cautiously conclude that the Chengdu J-20 shows higher combat value than the HAL Tejas.

 

[Scott Kenny]

China is not going to war with India lmao, it looses much much more than it could ever hope to gain from winning a conflict.

Yet the two have regularly traded fire and IIRC have come to an agreement to allow regular scrums at the border without heavy weapons taking part.

Both have invested in dedicated high altitude helicopters and light tanks/assault guns.

So they're certainly putting on the show of being able to have a serious fight in the Himalayas.

People also seem to forget something very important, the himalayas.
All chinese airbases in tibet operate at high altitude, this is a VERY significant penalty to the aircraft. They might be able to carry their weapons and then refuel in the air but that adds vulnerability. War is not only fought with numbers but also sortie rate and sortie rates from those high altitude bases will be abysmal. India also has a lot more airbases near the Sino-Indo border than China in tibet.( 7 vs at minimum 14 permanent and probably 30+ in a war considering other not permanently stationed bases that will be quickly converted for use).
Indian bases also operate at a significantly lower altitude because the himalayas rise directly from the plains while China has the high altitude tibetian region.
This is not including AD and and other sensors India is developing to combat stealth like PCLR, UHF band, photonic radars etc and AD.
Land invasion against a prepared India across the himalayas is stupid to say the least, especially when your going against an army that is probably the most experienced on the planet in terms of high altitude combat.

I'd honestly expect the war to be air strikes and bomber raids over the mountains, ground invasion from Vietnam/Laos/Myanmar(Burma).

Stealth isnt a silver bullet, the Su57 or the AMCA wont change the equation vs China in any way near term.

Strongly disagree here.

Stealth has proven to be a massive force multiplier, allowing one side to operate with near impunity while the side without stealth gets beaten like a drum.

India will be at a significant disadvantage for the next 20 or so years just like China was vs the US when it started to grow.

India is in trouble because it's taken them 20+ years to get the Tejas and AMCA built. HAL is either incompetent or grifting the money.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

How would you compare the AMCA to the KAAN and J-35?

I guess the IWB specs of Kaan is yet to be shown but J-35 & AMCA IWB could be identical.
35 tons MTOW Kaan w/ 2x F110-GE-132 engines 76.3/131.2KN thrust, wet T/MTOW 0.76,
27 tons MTOW AMCA w/ 2x F414 engines 57.8/98 KN thrust, wet T/MTOW 0.74,
28 tons MTOW J-35 w/ 2x WS-19 engines 78.45/116 KN thrust, wet T/MTOW 0.84

 

[snne]

Those graphics are more than four years old... As you can see for yourself, the Kaan design shown in them is totally different from the actual aircraft's design (for example, the real aircraft is 20.1 meters long as opposed to 21 meters)...

I guess the IWB specs of Kaan is yet to be shown

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/tai-tf-x-milli-muharip-uçak-mmu-kaan.13448/post-882843
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/tai-tf-x-milli-muharip-uçak-mmu-kaan.13448/post-882010

 

[Low IQ Techie]

Those graphics are more than four years old... As you can see for yourself, the Kaan design shown in them is totally different from the actual aircraft's design (for example, the real aircraft is 20.1 meters long as opposed to 21 meters)...

Just for showing outline. Comparison images & diagrams are rare.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/tai-tf-x-milli-muharip-uçak-mmu-kaan.13448/post-882843
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/tai-tf-x-milli-muharip-uçak-mmu-kaan.13448/post-882010

Very flat angle of the white unpainted jet, so from pic let's assume it'll have IWB & SWB equivalent to F-22's.

 

[EmoBirb]

Its very hard to compare something that doesn't exists to something that do

Things that exist and are heavily classified beyond vague export brochures.

 

[Ainen]

Strongly disagree here.

Stealth has proven to be a massive force multiplier, allowing one side to operate with near impunity while the side without stealth gets beaten like a drum.

The trap here is that stealth jets don't magically counter stealth jets. They don't have any inherent detection advantages, i.e. intercept for both the fighter and the weapon is equally handicapped.
The situation deteriorates from bad to worse when GBADs and AEWs are compromised, and that is precisely what 5ths prioritize on a priority basis. Knowing where 5th gen fighters are is not a given, even if you have anti-stealth UHF/VHF capability. Radar goes up in flames, and here's your battlefield awareness.

The Su-57 has a shot at countering stealth incursions specifically; it's built for this exact purpose. But it is not a single stop solution against a larger force, it requires a system. It is not that easy to achieve integration between a very diverse mix of fighters, where many nations would rather die than let this integration happen.
It doesn't help that India mixes air defenses, too - and not the latest ones, - in a similar manner.
Yes, you can work it out with what you have (Su-57D - Super MKI - S-400), but it's like one hand behind your back.
Guiding Rafales via voice comm will be obviously suboptimal.

Without an underlying system, the attacker will just fight it out and will have an advantage at doing that. Unlike most of the competition, Chinese stealth aircraft are straightforward air superiority types: they aren't really afraid of Su-57 (which isn't) by itself.

More importantly, China is on a trajectory to have more normal 5th gens, than India has fighters altogether.
Moreover, just their newest installment of this generation is already more numerous than the numbers that IAF considers.

This is not to say that India doesn't need this procurement - it's the only way to have any counter and credibility in the first place. Just don't expect 54 conventional jets of any type to stop a superpower.

edit: spelling mistakes.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The trap here is that stealth jets don't magically counter stealth jets. They don't have any inherent detection advantages, i.e. intercept for both the fighter and weapon is equally handicapped.
Situation goes from bad to worse, when GBADs and AEWs are broken, and that just happens to be the exact thing 5ths go for on a priority basis. Knowing where 5th gen fighters are is not a given even if you have anti-stealth UHF/VHF capability. Radar goes up in flames and here's your battlefield awareness.

Fair point.

Stealth lets you attack easier, but doesn't help your defenses.

This is not to say that India doesn't need this procurement, - it's the only way to have any counter and credibility in the first place. Just don't expect 54 conventional jets of any type to stop a superpower.

India needs to ... [search for polite word covering the sheer scope of work needed failed] unfuck their procurement. How long has HAL been trying to produce an aircraft?!?

FFS India has a larger population than China and should have a larger economy to go with it. But they've successfully screwed that up. Indian GDP per capita is less than $3000(!!!), ~13k if you go by PPP. India's GDP (PPP) per capita puts it at 121 of 190 nations. The "Four Asian Tigers" (or Four Little Dragons) launched their economies in the 1960s. China launched theirs in the late 1970s, after the explosive success of the Four Asian Tigers (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong) showed how to do it. Where was India in all this? Stagnant economy and high inflation. Terrible governmental controls, nationalizing banks etc.

 

[lmaoxd]

Yet the two have regularly traded fire and IIRC have come to an agreement to allow regular scrums at the border without heavy weapons taking part.

Both have invested in dedicated high altitude helicopters and light tanks/assault guns.

So they're certainly putting on the show of being able to have a serious fight in the Himalayas.

I never said they couldnt fight at all(that would be incredibly stupid given the investements theyve made), its just that they gain very little from actually going to war in himalayas because its going to be abysmal. Its not fun actually fighting at those altitudes even if it is against a vastly inferior force.

I'd honestly expect the war to be air strikes and bomber raids over the mountains, ground invasion from Vietnam/Laos/Myanmar(Burma).

honestly there is wayyy to many variables to such a war, They could even use pakistan (pakistan would be more than willing) as a staging base if they want to fight a damaging territorial war. Its also not like they're air bases are going to remain in pristine conditions looking at Investments India has made for Anti airbase and airfield munitions as well as GPS denied drones and what not. Airbases are relatively easy to patch up though. idk.

Strongly disagree here.

Stealth has proven to be a massive force multiplier, allowing one side to operate with near impunity while the side without stealth gets beaten like a drum.

..... by the time India has lets say 150 Su57s(assuming such a large scale deal is signed with import+local) China would probably have more 5th gens than all the fighters in the IAF combined. Pure numbers is BS. Ofc like I've alr talked about the disadvantages of tibetian airbases but they would probably have at least 2x the IAF force of 5th gens if not more deployed at those airbases even considering other responsibilities like the the taiwan and japan front.
They also have a obviously much higher capacity for missiles so your going to get peppered.

India getting 5th gens is purely a detterant but if China was willing to take a lot of losses it wouldn't matter anyway. the economies are tooo far apart and India will be at a heavy disadvantage for the next 20 or so years until it has enough to counter Chinese deployments in Tibet.

5th gens is more so geared towards pakistan who is going to get rolled over relatively fast anyway j35 or not. 5th gens just drastically reduces losses incurred in such a conflict. Plus IND-PAK wars usually end at skirmishes due to the looming threat of nukes so 5th gens could reduce losses here but once again in full scale war they're not going to add all that much.

India is in trouble because it's taken them 20+ years to get the Tejas and AMCA built. HAL is either incompetent or grifting the money.

There is a reason for HALs deliberate exclusions from the most important program in the IAF's history. Hell the rules were quite clearly written to specifically keep them out. Tata and L&T have the financial might and are relatively reliable(especially L&T but tata has vastly more experience in the aerospace industry)

The AMCA is not going to change jackshit vs China(at least in the 2030s). Its the build up of the aerospace industry so you have 2-3 different players competing to avoid the current issues for any future aircraft that will help change the equation. Its also getting these guys to invest in R&D so that while they are carried around for the first aircraft they can build up capability to design high level aircrafts. India doesn't lack talent itself but it lacks the ability to apply it. Private players have usually helped drastically with this so lets see. At the end of the day its going to come round about 10 yrs from now(that's if things go well so probably even furthur away)

 

[lmaoxd]

FFS India has a larger population than China and should have a larger economy to go with it. But they've successfully screwed that up. Indian GDP per capita is less than $3000(!!!), ~13k if you go by PPP. India's GDP (PPP) per capita puts it at 121 of 190 nations. The "Four Asian Tigers" (or Four Little Dragons) launched their economies in the 1960s. China launched theirs in the late 1970s, after the explosive success of the Four Asian Tigers (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong) showed how to do it. Where was India in all this? Stagnant economy and high inflation. Terrible governmental controls, nationalizing banks etc.

India opened its economy officially in 1991(when it was literally forced to by the IMF because of incompetent governance) and practically in the early 2000s. How do you expect it to compare to an economy that opened itself up in the 1980s? GDP per PPP means nothing if you import a lot of hardware for high end tools.

stagnant economy? I mean what?

inflation...... I mean did you even look at last years numbers before you say anything? India had exceptionally low inflation(far too low infact which was another seperate issue)

government controls I agree which is why they're desperately digitizing everything and anything they can and passing a lot of reforms. Not enough but improving.

nationalising banks...... mate that happened in two waves in 1969 and 1980. India today is doing the exact opposite of nationalising banks?

Why are we discussing the Indian economy in an AMCA thread.? it adds very little to the conversation today.

 

[Scott Kenny]

the economies are tooo far apart and India will be at a heavy disadvantage for the next 20 or so years until it has enough to counter Chinese deployments in Tibet.

And that's only if India manages to actually build some industry this time.

stagnant economy? I mean what?

inflation...... I mean did you even look at last years numbers before you say anything? India had exceptionally low inflation(far too low infact which was another seperate issue)

government controls I which is why they're desperately digitizing everything and anything they can and passing a lot of reforms. Not enough but improving.

nationalising banks...... mate that happened in two waves in 1969 and 1980. India today is doing the exact opposite of nationalising banks?

Did you miss the part where I said this was talking about the 1960s and 1970s?

The "Four Asian Tigers" (or Four Little Dragons) launched their economies in the 1960s. China launched theirs in the late 1970s, after the explosive success of the Four Asian Tigers (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong) showed how to do it. Where was India in all this? Stagnant economy and high inflation. Terrible governmental controls, nationalizing banks etc.

India had 4 working growth models to follow: South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong. They had the population to be able to not specialize like the others did, and instead specialize by region/state to feed each area's growth off each other. Instead they fumbled the ball so hard it set them back 40+ years!

 

[lmaoxd]

And that's only if India manages to actually build some industry this time.

Yes lets see. We will know in 10 or so years.

India had 4 working growth models to follow: South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong. They had the population to be able to not specialize like the others did, and instead specialize by region/state to feed each area's growth off each other. Instead they fumbled the ball so hard it set them back 40+ years!

and they didnt because of an incompetent gov that was more focused on actually keeping the country together(which in itself was facing VERY significant issues at the time) and also hoarding power. You can now do one of two things - cry over spilt milk or move on and start the process to get there.

All the Asian tigers are homogenous countries that had little ethnic issues and all had a similar mindset(relatively speaking).

Its not simple to actually get anything done in India because someone/some community is always going to be crying and as a democracy who entire survival of state is dependant on keeping that democracy(India in a dictatorship/autocracy would collapse within 5 years) its not easy.

Sad that they wasted so much time to get the ball rolling but its rolling now and hopefully continues to roll for a long time.

Did you miss the part where I said this was talking about the 1960s and 1970s?
Yes I did. That's my bad.

Once again this doesn't add anything of importance to this thread.

 

[Ainen]

India had 4 working growth models to follow: South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong. They had the population to be able to not specialize like the others did, and instead specialize by region/state to feed each area's growth off each other. Instead they fumbled the ball so hard it set them back 40+ years!

There's a broad consensus that east asian model isn't really applicable beyond the "Sinosphere".
India...tried to take some clues, but overall it appears South Asia, or even parts of SEA, which are more "indian" than "sino" (i.e. most of them), need their own path. Just different cultures and inputs.

Either way, right now Indian economy is booming, and they do enter the stage comparable to China's 2000s in terms of India's ability to finance things. You can even broadly compare where two nations were/are in terms of aircraft manufacturing (J-11A...B, J-10, JF-17).
But China was still in a better position back then, due to a more consistent industrial policy, as well as better leveraging the collapse of the Soviet Union. Indian inconsistency is sadly visible to this day - HAL is troublesome, and they do need to grow alternative champions, but the way they're doing it seems incredibly risky to me. Risking, above all else, making another HAL (i.e. a valid manufacturer plagued by same problems)...in 20 years, at the cost of AMCA's chances of just...happening without issue.

 

[lmaoxd]

, but the way they're doing it seems incredibly risky to me. Risking, above all else, making another HAL (i.e. a valid manufacturer plagued by same problems)...in 20 years, at the cost of AMCA's chances of just...happening without issue.

Its the only way to get results done quickly. Its not like these said consortiums(at least L&t and Tata) are complete newbies either, they manufacture aircrafts and their parts for companies both In India and abroad and also make components for the LCA tejas progam. The program itself has an issue because of HAL but the experience and ability gained from the manufacturing of the mk1a(which now number over 30-40 airframes without engines) is not going away.

Its also not like they're going to be designing and testing it alone. DRDO and the ADA are going to be holding their hands throughout the process. Theyre literally just manufacturing things and learning via this program which they have the ability to do and have alr done.

 

[Ainen]

Its the only way to get results done quickly. Its not like these said consortiums(at least L&t and Tata) are complete newbies either, they manufacture aircrafts and their parts for companies both In India and abroad and also make components for the LCA tejas progam. The program itself has an issue because of HAL but the experience and ability gained from the manufacturing of the mk1a(which now number over 30-40 airframes without engines) is not going away.

Its also not like they're going to be designing and testing it alone. DRDO and the ADA are going to be holding their hands throughout the process. Theyre literally just manufacturing things and learning via this program which they have the ability to do and have alr done.

But they lack any experience whatsoever of just going from waypost to waypost.

One of the reasons (at least for an outsider) HAL became what it became is an endless stream of unrealistic goals, which they learned to just sink in the swamp (as it's literally the only thing possible).
Asking new guys to get you a 5th-generation fighter out, quickly, is a definition of an unrealistic goal to me. As such, they'll be learning all the same lessons, while dragging their feet under impossible demands.

 

[paralay]

37 tons versus 25 tons of maximum takeoff weight

 

[lmaoxd]

But they lack any experience whatsoever of just going from waypost to waypost.

One of the reasons (at least for an outsider) HAL became what it became is an endless stream of unrealistic goals, which they learned to just sink in the swamp (as it's literally the only thing possible).
Asking new guys to get you a 5th-generation fighter out, quickly, is a definition of an unrealistic goal to me. As such, they'll be learning all the same lessons, while dragging their feet under impossible demands.

HAL got to where it is because of a multitude of reasons, the primary one being they were never really punished for delays. They had no competition at all apart from imports. They're also a gov owned agency and that alone has a bunch of issues because of management that literally found it hard to sack incompetent people because they were so well protected by laws that govern state agencies.

I dont know if the private consortium thing is going to work but they've actually shown hat they're capable of setting and meeting goals via other national infra projects and other aerospace projects(tata being the sole producer of apache fuselages today with over 300 delivered, C295 production). I dont know and wont know but this is practically the only choice India has If it wants to get its industry up to par relatively quickly. A slow transition is also possible but that would take multiple decades in a democaratic nation where things can get stalled without tooo much effort.

Also what other choice do they have? give it back to HAL and hope for the best while knowing with a near 100% certainty that it will get massive delays without actually contributing anything to the industry by once again not providing competition to HAL? How long can they delay setting up competition when they know if they dont it will bite them back heavily.

 

[Ainen]

HAL got to where it is because of a multitude of reasons, the primary one being they were never really punished for delays. They had no competition at all apart from imports. They're also a gov owned agency and that alone has a bunch of issues because of management that literally found it hard to sack people because they were so well protected by laws that govern state agencies.

Well, without disagreeing on what you said(all valid), if you punish for delays on an impossible task, you get nothing more than a punished contractor and his employees.
Private companies (especially without competition) with powerful backing have their own ways of defending themselves. But when they do, they learn to be just another toxic manufacturer.

I dont know if the private consortium thing is going to work but they've actually shown hat they're capable of setting and meeting goals via other national infra projects and other aerospace projects. I dont know and wont know but this is practically the only choice India has If it wants to get its industry up to par relatively quickly

Let's see, I personally don't think it's a goal that should be tried "quickly". Rather, you need several seedlings, which you grow in stages from simpler to complex tasks, choosing and merging them into more productive teams as time goes on. IMHO, it'll work faster than attempts to jump over.

 

[snne]

37 tons versus 25 tons of maximum takeoff weight

Hi Paralay, do you have any plans to revise your Kaan artwork, considering the one you drew at the time was based on an outdated, pre-CDR design...?

 

[lmaoxd]

Let's see, I personally don't think it's a goal that should be tried "quickly". Rather, you need several seedlings, which you grow in stages from simpler to complex tasks, choosing and merging them into more productive teams as time goes on. IMHO, it'll work faster than attempts to jump over.

The exact seedling program is what's being done via the LCA tejas program. Which is why the same program despite having been a failure for not arriving on time(due to HAL and MoD shenanigans) has been a boon for the aerospace part of the industry. I think every single part of the mk1a apart from the engines and ejection seat is produced in India. The radar too but its a temporary solution as is the ejection seat. the engine will take a lot longer as investments only started at serious scale around 2 years ago.

The same L&T is also the DccP for the ghatak program and its demonstrator SWiFT. which are again flying wing and stealth focused.

Man idk. time will tell us if this approach helped.

 

[lmaoxd]

This is apparently the progam details. BE WARNED: this does come from a twitter account so it could be worth less than the paper its printed on(seems to be a proper source using RTI via gov but its twitter so idk.)
according to some chatter the P1 FF is where the bare minimum for the airframe will be tested. p2 and P3 are likely the actual prototypes for the aircraft. A lot of the stuff like tools etc are probably being prepared right now via HAL and ADA facilities so that said winners dont have to start from 0.

STS is also the real start for proper flight testing
looks really tight so should prolly expect a delay of 2 or so years.

 

[Nx4eu]

Should be to scale. I used this AMCA drawing. setting AMCA = 17.6m long, and J-35A = 17.3m long

 

[Low IQ Techie]

37 tons versus 25 tons of maximum takeoff weight

AMCA MTOW is said to have increased to 27 tons.
Have you attempted any drawings of AMCA based on available data so far?
Some Indian artists have made 3D renderings but technical drawings none.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

For easy understanding, let's say 1st 5 gens came very fast till 2000 AD.
HAL & other DPSUs were stalled by import culture.
Then 25 years after 2000 now 6gen is emerging which was expected. When YF-22 flew in 1990 then 30-35 years is huge time for 6gen YF/TD to fly.
Citizens see end result given by (Govt. + designers + manufacturers + operators/Forces).
So things have to be result orients IN TIME. AMCA project should be double paced in 2 shifts 18x5 by PPP & PSU expansion or new PSU, whatever, in most populous nation with millions of techies, 8000+ AICTE approved Engg. colleges, absorbing the talent pool, creating employment & ecosystem.
F404 engine delayed LCA. F414 delayed AMCA, TEDBF, MWF. Domestic R&D by GTRE, JV with EU are critical.
If China relaxed with 6gen then India could also relax. But in future, only AMCA won't help. IMO like LCA inflated to MWF, AMCA can be inflated with Iz-177.

 

[paralay]

Have you attempted any drawings of AMCA based on available data so far?

I see the history of Indian projects, and it seems pointless to me to get involved in them

 

[SuperShark]

I see the history of Indian projects, and it seems pointless to me to get involved in them

Paralay if you completed a drawing of the AMCA you would be closer to a production model than India

 

[paralay]

The Indians need to try, of course they do, but if you see that you can't do it on your own, you need to buy the technology from someone else.
For example, in Russia/the USSR, they couldn't make an aircraft engine with a power output of 30 to 150 horsepower. There were many projects, but they didn't produce anything. How many times can you try? Buy a factory

 

[Ainen]

The Indians need to try, of course they do, but if you see that you can't do it on your own, you need to buy the technology from someone else.
For example, in Russia/the USSR, they couldn't make an aircraft engine with a power output of 30 to 150 horsepower. There were many projects, but they didn't produce anything. How many times can you try? Buy a factory

No one sells factories of this kind like in the 1930s(with a couple of exceptions over many decades, primarily between USSR/Russia and China).
Even between the closest of allies, it just doesn't happen.

You have to work your way up on your own, and while you're at that, you have to design your aircraft in a way that doesn't tie them to a single supplier.
I just don't see how AMCA changes the core mistakes of HAL Tejas - more like it discards key achievements that the Tejas program managed to reach.

Replacing SOE with Oligarchs is not that much of a progress.

And that's on top of AMCA being absolutely ... average and uninspiring stealth aircraft, tying with KF-21 blk.3. It's as if Russia is more thoughtful of Indian conditions than India itself is.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

I see the history of Indian projects, and it seems pointless to me to get involved in them

LOL, history of Indian projects was stalled by import culture by politicians under influence of foreign producers.
Otherwise like ISRO & DRDO doing well similarly ADA & HAL would also continued like China, Russia, EU after HF-24 Marut. LCA, MWF, TEDBF then AMCA would have come on time.
Anyways, I seriously do love your unparalleled works, i wish i had a 3D CAD PC with good GPU which costs a lot, not a family expenditure priority just for drawings, but KF-21 & Kaan drawings you made so far, these jets are 1st combat jets of their nations, while AMCA is 3rd after HF-24, LCA.
KF-21 is 4.5gen with US design inputs but India doesn't wan't AMCA to fly like that.
Kaan is also using US engine subjected to possible delays.
With PPP coming up as a new reset, Indians'll apparently start up many projects if avoiding mass unemployment is desired.

 

[lmaoxd]

No one sells factories of this kind like in the 1930s(with a couple of exceptions over many decades, primarily between USSR/Russia and China).
Even between the closest of allies, it just doesn't happen.

You have to work your way up on your own, and while you're at that, you have to design your aircraft in a way that doesn't tie them to a single supplier.
I just don't see how AMCA changes the core mistakes of HAL Tejas - more like it discards key achievements that the Tejas program managed to reach.

Replacing SOE with Oligarchs is not that much of a progress.

And that's on top of AMCA being absolutely ... average and uninspiring stealth aircraft, tying with KF-21 blk.3. It's as if Russia is more thoughtful of Indian conditions than India itself is.

Well the AMCA comes in blocks. the GE 414 version is planned as the initial block to get the aircraft into IOC. The main orders would come from the block equipped with the planned 120KN engine collab with a bunch of added stuff and what not. Idk and dont have access to this info apart from surface level stuff so im not going to make any comments. All I know is that it is supposed to be the real serial production version while this GE414 version is similar to the Su57 in early production in 2022 and 2023.

Something someone said comes to mind today. For things where there are absolutely NO options like space or nuclear or strategic assets like missiles etc India tends to do pretty well but the moment you have a system which has foreign alternatives the import lobby comes into play and stalls and delays projects at multiple levels. Its seen in sooo many different things including infrastructure projects.

I just dont understand How you consider Tata or L&T as oligarchs? its like calling lockheed martin or boeing an oligarchy or dassault or BAE(which are the companies India is trying to model this new consortium upon). India is trying to build up its private sector today so that by the time the economy can get into proper large scale buying when the economy hits 10 trillion and above they have options apart from HAL. The companies have proven to be relatively reliable when given access to other infra projects. The zorawar tank is a prime example where a DRDO base design was drastically improved upon and manufactured in record time by L&T even after german engine delays where certain engines got export blocked.

At the end of the day they've shown that they're capable of handling the manufacturing side of things for now and can even innovate once they build up capabilities over time as L&T did with the K9 with license manufacture and learning from the experience and applying said experience on the zorawar. Lets not even talk about the nuclear subs for which the majority of the manufacturing is actually done at L&Ts hazira facility and only some parts and final integration with the reactor etc are done at SBC.

Its not going to be simple or easy but it has to be done. Whether it has to be done this particular way is something to ponder about or disagree with.

At the end of the day we don't really know why they're confident enough to do this. The fact that India is moving away from a government monopoly over an industry like defence aerospace is in itself a massive deal( A lot bigger than some people seem to think) which they simply wont do that easily. Any failure will result in huge backlash from the public and the government employees combined which is not to be taken lightly. We will know the results within 10 years(actually going by the timeline probably within 4-6 years).

 

[Waterballoon]

The chinese used the Soviet break up very well to get their hands on technology. India didn't and missed out on RD-33 and eventually the AI-9500F for the Tejas.

They should've funded the co-development of a new RD-33 version or AI-9500F with IP rights from Ukraine as soon as they proved that they could develop afterburning turbofans.

So many missed opportunities.