'How California's Bullet Train Went Off the Rails' (New York Times)

[Dilandu]

The funny thing is that with big government .... in China, everyone just build a lot of infrastructure (a good number economically unviable) while everyone steals money as part of construction.

China authorities are content with money being stolen, as long as work is being adequately done.

US authorities are content with money being stolen, as long as money being stolen.

Sorry)

 

[publiusr]

There is that. There, idealists worship procedure over progress.

 

[shin_getter]

China authorities are content with money being stolen, as long as work is being adequately done.

US authorities are content with money being stolen, as long as money being stolen.

No no, you don't get it. Certain US voters/interest group see that in agency 1 money can potentially be stolen, so they demand a agency 2 to audit and oversight agency 1. But what if money gets stolen in agency 2? Obviously you start agency 3 to audit and oversight agency 2. But what if money gets stolen in agency 3? Well, that is where agency 4 comes in....

What, there are too many agencies? Obviously you start a meta agency to organize and coordinate everything, can't leave anything uncontrolled, PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN~

 

[EmoBirb]

Corruption aside, the issue high speed rail faces in the US is that the country is very car centered and has a very powerful automotive lobby. Americans consider the personal vehicle (preferably an oversized SUV or Pickup Truck) as the ultimate mode of transportation, followed by the plane.

The rest of the world, especially Europe and East Asia but also other regions, have seen the light and robust rail networks for passenger transportation as well as high speed rail networks in particular. HSR just makes a whole lot of sense for travel between large urban centers in a specific region. Although here in Germany for example the ICE (InterCity Express) network basically connects all large cities across the country.

 

[alberchico]

No no, you don't get it. Certain US voters/interest group see that in agency 1 money can potentially be stolen, so they demand a agency 2 to audit and oversight agency 1. But what if money gets stolen in agency 2? Obviously you start agency 3 to audit and oversight agency 2. But what if money gets stolen in agency 3? Well, that is where agency 4 comes in....

What, there are too many agencies? Obviously you start a meta agency to organize and coordinate everything, can't leave anything uncontrolled, PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN~

100 years ago the United States did have a more leaner efficient method of accomplishing major infrastructure projects. But then tyrants like Robert Moses started appearing who began tearing down entire neighborhoods to ram highways through it without consulting the public and that inevitably turned people against progress. So all of the regulatory hurdles that large projects have to deal with today are a direct response to the abuses that were committed many decades ago. The book that covers Robert Moses life is a very good read if you have an interest in urban planning.( albeit a bit long)

https://thelablib.org/2025/04/17/review-225-the-power-broker/
Jumping forward to the present day, labor unions also yield enormous influence, and can slow down projects and push them over budget by insisting to outdated work ruled being observed knowing that politicians won't risk fighting them over it. Which is why NYC's recent subway extension was absurdly expensive.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html

 

[Hydroman]

The Brightline West high-speed rail project is off and running which will connect LA with Las Vegas. The Brightline project in Florida, the initial legs were on-schedule and budget plus the final legs I think are in process but don't quote me on that. Nevada has their act together and hopefully CA doesn't screw it up just like our state high-speed rail to nowhere. The CA HSR is not getting any USG funding (thank god for that, it would just get pissed away).

EmoBirb's comments regarding Europe and assessment regarding the US "car culture" is correct, everything is spread out, especially in CA. Also in major US cities, people would probably ride public rail more if it wasn't for all of the violent, crazy people running around, average people don't want to shot, stabbed, beat up, etc. I have traveled by rail in Europe and Japan, it's great!

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/26/...igh-speed-rail-price-tag-jumps-to-231-billion

Ouch.

 

[TinWing]

The Brightline West high-speed rail project is off and running which will connect LA with Las Vegas. The Brightline project in Florida, the initial legs were on-schedule and budget plus the final legs I think are in process but don't quote me on that. Nevada has their act together and hopefully CA doesn't screw it up just like our state high-speed rail to nowhere. The CA HSR is not getting any USG funding (thank god for that, it would just get pissed away).

EmoBirb's comments regarding Europe and assessment regarding the US "car culture" is correct, everything is spread out, especially in CA. Also in major US cities, people would probably ride public rail more if it wasn't for all of the violent, crazy people running around, average people don't want to shot, stabbed, beat up, etc. I have traveled by rail in Europe and Japan, it's great!

It seem that Brightline Florida is on its “last legs” rather than final legs.

View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=9eK-Yx6M2sk&ra=m

The great irony of YouTube advertising is that the municipal bond insurer that is likely to lose the most from the bankruptcy is advertising on this video. In any case, stick a fork in Brightline Florida because it’s done. Looking at the dismal economic prospects of Las Vegas, a former gambling Mecca in terminal decline much like Atlantic City, I don’t see how Brightline West can be taken seriously.

I’d argue that personal safety is only a consideration for local transit, like Portland streetcars or NYC subways and busses, not high speed rail. The only nutters you’ll find on long haul Amtrak trains are the eccentrics who have both a fear of flying and driving - timid souls who are the most unlikely muggers.

 

[Hydroman]

It seem that Brightline Florida is on its “last legs” rather than final legs.

View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=9eK-Yx6M2sk&ra=m

The great irony of YouTube advertising is that the municipal bond insurer that is likely to lose the most from the bankruptcy is advertising on this video. In any case, stick a fork in Brightline Florida because it’s done. Looking at the dismal economic prospects of Las Vegas, a former gambling Mecca in terminal decline much like Atlantic City, I don’t see how Brightline West can be taken seriously.

I’d argue that personal safety is only a consideration for local transit, like Portland streetcars or NYC subways and busses, not high speed rail. The only nutters you’ll find on long haul Amtrak trains are the eccentrics who have both a fear of flying and driving - timid souls who are the most unlikely muggers.

I do agree, high speed rail in the US is tough, the US has a lot of emphasis on air, car and truck. I also agree the nuts who ride transit are the ones on the urban systems, not regional or long haul. A guy who works for me used to take the LA Metrorail for convenience but stopped, tired of getting harassed by crazy homeless people and other dirtbags. In LA, you defend yourself against any of these people, you are the one going to jail unfortunately.

Don't know how Bright Line West will fair ultimately, only time will tell.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

This picture sums up why high-speed fail doesn't work in the US:

 

[publiusr]

I don't mind infrastructure projects...being a larger country you could argue we need it more. There is a bit of an anti-car culture that has developed, so if folks would stop with that, people may not hate on rail as much.

We used to have far more in the way of rail-lines....

 

[Scott Kenny]

And where did all the money go?

Check the politician's families.

China authorities are content with money being stolen, as long as work is being adequately done.

US authorities are content with money being stolen, as long as money being stolen.

Sorry)

Don't be, it's true.

Corruption aside, the issue high speed rail faces in the US is that the country is very car centered and has a very powerful automotive lobby. Americans consider the personal vehicle (preferably an oversized SUV or Pickup Truck) as the ultimate mode of transportation, followed by the plane.

The rest of the world, especially Europe and East Asia but also other regions, have seen the light and robust rail networks for passenger transportation as well as high speed rail networks in particular. HSR just makes a whole lot of sense for travel between large urban centers in a specific region. Although here in Germany for example the ICE (InterCity Express) network basically connects all large cities across the country.

The US is also the size of Europe as a whole.

This picture sums up why high-speed fail doesn't work in the US:

Exactly. The US is far, far larger than any nation in Europe.

I don't mind infrastructure projects...being a larger country you could argue we need it more. There is a bit of an anti-car culture that has developed, so if folks would stop with that, people may not hate on rail as much.

We used to have far more in the way of rail-lines....

We did. Then the old street-cars (light rail) were replaced with busses, heavily sponsored by General Motors.

=====================

Overall, the US can more or less use a highspeed rail on each coast. Florida up to NYC or maybe Maine, Florida into Texas, NYC west to Chicago area, San Diego up to Seattle or maybe up to the Canadian border.

Why not a high-speed rail from LA or San Francisco to Las Vegas? There's a really big mountain range in the way, Donner Pass is 7500ft above sea level! Just like a big truck can't go too fast over a hill, neither can a train. Also, the whole grade all the way up is right at 2%, which is really tough on a train. It will also require dozens of bridges etc at Eff You Money prices.

The major issue for the rest of the rail lines is a nasty thing called a grade crossing, where streets cross the railroad. You cannot run high speed rail with grade crossings. You can see this in Japan, where the Shinkansen tracks are elevated above the streets until well out of the cities, and even then any road or path that crosses is in a tunnel or bridge.

Elevated train tracks like the Japanese did with the Shinkansen are expensive. Not California light rail expensive, but not cheap. Digging tunnels under rail right-of-ways is also expensive, and also has issues with utilities.

Expensive either way you slice it.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I don't mind infrastructure projects...being a larger country you could argue we need it more. There is a bit of an anti-car culture that has developed, so if folks would stop with that, people may not hate on rail as much.

We used to have far more in the way of rail-lines....

Aircraft won. Airplanes were flexible on their routes and much faster than trains. Airports were cheaper to build than try and get right-of-way for tracks, build stations, and such. Unless HSR is much cheaper than flying there is no reason to use it. Much cheaper means endless heavy subsidy by government.

In the US aircraft win on both time and cost when it comes to travel over about 100 miles. From 0 to about 200 miles vehicle travel is often faster and cheaper than taking a train, even a HSR train.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Aircraft won. Airplanes were flexible on their routes and much faster than trains. Airports were cheaper to build than try and get right-of-way for tracks, build stations, and such. Unless HSR is much cheaper than flying there is no reason to use it. Much cheaper means endless heavy subsidy by government.

In the US aircraft win on both time and cost when it comes to travel over about 100 miles. From 0 to about 200 miles vehicle travel is often faster and cheaper than taking a train, even a HSR train.

High speed rail would be better for dropping into a city that has viable metro/light rail. For example the Shinkansen terminals are quite literally on top of the metro rails, you go down a couple of levels to get to the metro.

But that is absolutely contingent on the destination city having viable metro.

So it could work in NYC, maybe Chicago, and DC. I'm not aware of any west coast cities with working light rail.

In order for the US to effectively adopt high speed rail, it'd take a war that leveled most of the big cities, to be able to install a working light rail. Then you can run high-speed rail up top.

=========================

Of course, you can get much of the same effect just by running your metro out to the airport.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

High speed rail would be better for dropping into a city that has viable metro/light rail. For example the Shinkansen terminals are quite literally on top of the metro rails, you go down a couple of levels to get to the metro.

When you look at Japan, the Shinkansen it goes through about a dozen cities the size of San Diego to LA. All of them are many times denser than any US city. That means it stops about every 50 miles (~ 80 km) in a very large city. The government can do land grabs there far more easily than any US government can to get the right-of-way for the tracks.

But that is absolutely contingent on the destination city having viable metro.

It is also contingent on the cities along the line having viable reasons to travel between

So it could work in NYC, maybe Chicago, and DC. I'm not aware of any west coast cities with working light rail.

The NW corridor on the East coast of the US from about DC to NYC is the only area with that sort of potential.

In order for the US to effectively adopt high speed rail, it'd take a war that leveled most of the big cities, to be able to install a working light rail. Then you can run high-speed rail up top.

=========================

Of course, you can get much of the same effect just by running your metro out to the airport.

The problem is, in the US commuter air is cheaper and faster than a HSR system rendering the later uneconomical to operate.

 

[Scott Kenny]

When you look at Japan, the Shinkansen it goes through about a dozen cities the size of San Diego to LA. All of them are many times denser than any US city. That means it stops about every 50 miles (~ 80 km) in a very large city. The government can do land grabs there far more easily than any US government can to get the right-of-way for the tracks.

The trip I took only had 1 stop between Tokyo and Kyoto.

It is also contingent on the cities along the line having viable reasons to travel between

Which has been greatly reduced to things that require physical presence of a person these days. Formal contract signings, face-to-face discussions, or vacations.

The NW corridor on the East coast of the US from about DC to NYC is the only area with that sort of potential.

And maybe the NYC/Chicago route.

The problem is, in the US commuter air is cheaper and faster than a HSR system rendering the later uneconomical to operate.

Pretty much.

When you can fly for the cost of an AMTRAK ticket...

 

[publiusr]

At least AMTRAKs couldn’t ram WTC, amen?

 

[Scott Kenny]

At least AMTRAKs couldn’t ram WTC, amen?

No, those are just going to derail and be destroyed when a train load of ammonium nitrate is detonated next to them.

 

[publiusr]

touché

 

[T. A. Gardner]

At least AMTRAKs couldn’t ram WTC, amen?

It isn't like airplanes hitting skyscrapers is new. After all, a B-25 hit the 92nd floor of the Empire State Building in 1945 after it got lost in fog and clouds. An elevator operator on her last day on the job after being fired rode one elevator over 1000 feet in free fall to the basement of the building and survived! She's in the Guiness Book of World Records even!

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.co...ft-fall-down-the-empire-state-building-759670

 

[T. A. Gardner]

No, those are just going to derail and be destroyed when a train load of ammonium nitrate is detonated next to them.

It's easier than that...

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/in...ar-old-case-of-amtrak-train-derailment-100920

https://www.npr.org/2015/04/12/3991...age-of-amtraks-sunset-limited-still-a-mystery

 

[T. A. Gardner]

China authorities are content with money being stolen, as long as work is being adequately done.

US authorities are content with money being stolen, as long as money being stolen.

Sorry)

Adequately? Nah... As long as appearances are good the work is good.