Spanish "pom-pom" - "Vickers 40/40" - Anti-aircraft machine gun for "Canarias".

[COLDOWN]

Wasn't La Argentina fitted with Vickers proprietary 25mm AA guns?

Yes, 25mm/70c Vickers-Armstrong guns were incorporated into the fleet starting in 1939 with the commissioning of the cruiser La Argentina.
Their shells were high-capacity (HE) with a weight of 0.260 kg and fired at a velocity of 914 m/s.
Apparently, between 1942 and 1944, Spain had the capacity to manufacture these guns, as Argentina negotiated their purchase as part of a package that included a destroyer and other armaments.

 

[Regg]

Apparently, between 1942 and 1944, Spain had the capacity to manufacture these guns, as Argentina negotiated their purchase as part of a package that included a destroyer and other armaments.

I'll answer categorically "no"!
Spain (during WWII) couldn't have produced any 25.4mm Vickers anti-aircraft guns!
They were most likely going to buy them from Great Britain.

 

[COLDOWN]

I'll answer categorically "no"!
Spain (during WWII) couldn't have produced any 25.4mm Vickers anti-aircraft guns!
They were most likely going to buy them from Great Britain.

I like that determination; it will save us from speculation. I've been trying to get a look at Spain's machine gun production, but its own postwar period seems to have been rather chaotic. It even appears that Argentina donated Italian-made 40mm/39c Vickers-Terni machine guns to Spain (tbc). In my opinion, it seems unlikely that United Kingdom, in the midst of war, would pay attention to an order for machine guns, whether from Spain or Argentina. So, with Spain and the United Kingdom ruled out, it seems like an impossible sale.
I'll just add that Argentina sent Spain the blueprints for the machine guns and shells of the 25mm/70cs. The idea was to acquire three or four twin mounts per destroyer (whether one or two) in addition to their ammunition. To avoid going into too much detail, gor those interested in this negotiation, there are some additional details here: https://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/viewtopic.php?t=29361 (spanish).

 

[Scott Kenny]

British/Original gun offered to Argentina in the 1930s as an antiaircraft and antitank.

https://imgur.com/2fJJnvK

View: https://imgur.com/2fJJnvK

or

So:

Characteristic	Vickers Original	Spaniard one
Caliber	40 mm	40 mm
Barrel length	2,000 mm (aka 50 L)	2,000 mm
Gun weight	297.1 kg
Total weight of the piece	~ 1,632 kg	2,953 kg
Vertical firing sector	+85 / -5 dg	+85 / -5 dg
Horizontal firing sector	360 dg	360 dg
Projectile weight	0.9 kg (pompom type)	0.9 kg (pompom and bofors?)
Projectile type	HE (Percussion Fuze, Time Fuze, Tracer), AP	-
Penetration	+25 mm @ 500 m, +15 mm @ 1,000 m	-
Cartridge weight	-	1.386 kg
Muzzle Velocity	750 mps	720 mps
Rate of Fire	190-200 rpm	60 rpm
Vertical Firing Range	4,500 m	4,475 m
Horizontal Firing Range	6,300 m	-

How on earth did they manage to add 1300kg in total weight?

 

[Tzoli]

D

Yes, 25mm/70c Vickers-Armstrong guns were incorporated into the fleet starting in 1939 with the commissioning of the cruiser La Argentina.
Their shells were high-capacity (HE) with a weight of 0.260 kg and fired at a velocity of 914 m/s.
Apparently, between 1942 and 1944, Spain had the capacity to manufacture these guns, as Argentina negotiated their purchase as part of a package that included a destroyer and other armaments.

Do you have more data on this 25mm vickers gun? Design date, mv shell weight etc? Was it an Oerlikon competitor?

 

[Regg]

Do you have more data on this 25mm vickers gun

To my own surprise, I thought I had more information about the 25.4mm Vickers in my files...

 

[Regg]

I'll just add that Argentina sent Spain the blueprints for the machine guns and shells of the 25mm/70cs.

Most likely, the drawings were transferred for calculations during the preparation of design documentation for the 3rd series destroyers (new Cervantes).

 

[Regg]

In my opinion, it seems unlikely that United Kingdom, in the midst of war, would pay attention to an order for machine guns, whether from Spain or Argentina. So, with Spain and the United Kingdom ruled out, it seems like an impossible sale.

And it wasn't just Great Britain. Almost all production of anti-aircraft artillery was concentrated in countries at war or occupied (France - Hotchkiss and Denmark - Madsen).
Sweden (Bofors) was the exception, but even they were limited in arms supplies at that time, even to non-belligerent countries.

 

[COLDOWN]

So, I forgot about the Hotchkiss 25mm/60cs made in Spain. Simile to http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_25mm-60_Hotchkiss.php These machine guns were supposedly built in Spain and made wholly or partially with Vickers' involvement for the Mexican G20 and Durango classes which were being also built in Spain.
Perhaps the Argentine intention of the 25mm/70cs for their destroyers was born from this experience.

How on earth did they manage to add 1300kg in total weight?

Protection?

Do you have more data on this 25mm vickers gun? Design date, mv shell weight etc? Was it an Oerlikon competitor?

You can access here (spanish): https://fdra.blogspot.com/2016/05/ara-canon-aa-de-254mm-vickers.html. Being the original source: (english) www.quarryhs.co.uk/Vickers25.4.htm.

Drachinifel made a video about La Argentina and stated in the comments that the original idea wasn't for it to have 25mm/70cs machine guns but 40mm/39cs. I find this strange, because Argentina didn't use those machine guns of purely British origin but rather of Italian origin (Vickers-Terni or Odero-Terni). I wouldn't be surprised to find in future documents that Drachinifel was partly right and that the machine guns initially considered were none other than the 40mm/50cs mentioned in this topic.

At the time the cruiser La Argentina was (at a lengthy pace) being built (1935-1939), Argentina negotiated the purchase of these machine guns:
- 20mm/65cs (single) Rheinmetall-Borsig, exclusively and in service for the Navy.
- 20mm/70cs (single) Oerlikon, exclusively and in service for the Army*.
- 25mm/70cs (twin) Vickers-Armstrong, exclusively and in service for the Navy.
- 37mm/57cs (single) Rheinmetall-Borsig, exclusively and in service for the Navy.
- 40mm/50cs (single) Vickers-Armstrong, offered but never in service to both Army and Navy.
- 40mm/56cs (single) Bofors, for both the Army and the Navy; in service in the Army but not in the Navy*.
By this I mean that the Oerlikon 20mm/70cs machine guns were not a priority for the Argentine Navy. And no documents appear to have survived that compare the Vickers-Armstrong, Oerlikon, and Rheinmetall-Borsig machine guns (of similar caliber).

*Used by the Navy since postwar.

Most likely, the drawings were transferred for calculations during the preparation of design documentation for the 3rd series destroyers (new Cervantes).

Yep

And it wasn't just Great Britain. Almost all production of anti-aircraft artillery was concentrated in countries at war or occupied (France - Hotchkiss and Denmark - Madsen).
Sweden (Bofors) was the exception, but even they were limited in arms supplies at that time, even to non-belligerent countries.

Of the machine guns I mentioned earlier, the Argentine Navy's Bofors 40mm/56cs were completely requisitioned and used by Sweden. The same is true for the Rheinmetall-Borsig 20mm/65cs and 37mm/57cs machine guns, which were partially requisitioned and used by Germany.

 

[Regg]

So, I forgot about the Hotchkiss 25mm/60cs made in Spain. Simile to http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_25mm-60_Hotchkiss.php These machine guns were supposedly built in Spain and made wholly or partially with Vickers' involvement for the Mexican G20 and Durango classes which were being also built in Spain.

This information is incorrect.
In Spain (before the GCE), there was no production of 25mm Hotchkiss automatic guns, either domestic or licensed.
To equip ships under construction for Mexico, 25mm automatic guns and 13.2mm machine guns were purchased from Hotchkiss and shipped to Spain, where they were installed on Mexican ships.
Regarding the appearance of 25mm Hotchkiss automatic guns on ships of the Spanish Republican's, I will say the following:
At the end of 1935, the Republican government purchased several sets of 25mm automatic guns and 13.2mm machine guns from Hotchkiss for its own navy. The first shipment arrived in Cartagena in April 1936. This shipment was delivered by the tug "Ciclope," well-known to all connoisseurs of the Spanish navy. Assembly and installation of the delivered automatic rifles and machine guns on the ships was planned to begin after the arrival of the second shipment. However, the outbreak of war and the enactment of the anti-aid law prevented this. The French refused to send the second part of the order and refused to send specialists to assemble the guns for the first part of the shipment.
After the French refused, Spanish gunsmiths began assembling the kits received in April themselves. Thus, 25mm automatic rifles and 13.2mm machine guns appeared on board Spanish Republican destroyers and cruisers in august 1936 (and later).
They had another 25mm automatic rifle. It was stored in Valencia for subsequent installation on a Mexican gunboat under construction. The Republicans requisitioned this rifle from Mexico (with its approval).
***
Regarding the anti-aircraft gun requisitioned in Valencia:
I couldn't find any official document indicating which ship it was installed on. My guess is it was on the "Jaime I" or "Jose Luis Diez."

 

[Regg]

You can access here (spanish): https://fdra.blogspot.com/2016/05/ara-canon-aa-de-254mm-vickers.html. Being the original source: (english) www.quarryhs.co.uk/Vickers25.4.htm.

To collect and summarize information on the 25.4mm Vickers, I propose creating a separate thread:
"25.4mm/70mm Vickers automatic gun"

 

[COLDOWN]

This information is incorrect.
In Spain (before the GCE), there was no production of 25mm Hotchkiss automatic guns, either domestic or licensed.
To equip ships under construction for Mexico, 25mm automatic guns and 13.2mm machine guns were purchased from Hotchkiss and shipped to Spain, where they were installed on Mexican ships.
Regarding the appearance of 25mm Hotchkiss automatic guns on ships of the Spanish Republican's, I will say the following:
At the end of 1935, the Republican government purchased several sets of 25mm automatic guns and 13.2mm machine guns from Hotchkiss for its own navy. The first shipment arrived in Cartagena in April 1936. This shipment was delivered by the tug "Ciclope," well-known to all connoisseurs of the Spanish navy. Assembly and installation of the delivered automatic rifles and machine guns on the ships was planned to begin after the arrival of the second shipment. However, the outbreak of war and the enactment of the anti-aid law prevented this. The French refused to send the second part of the order and refused to send specialists to assemble the guns for the first part of the shipment.
After the French refused, Spanish gunsmiths began assembling the kits received in April themselves. Thus, 25mm automatic rifles and 13.2mm machine guns appeared on board Spanish Republican destroyers and cruisers in august 1936 (and later).
They had another 25mm automatic rifle. It was stored in Valencia for subsequent installation on a Mexican gunboat under construction. The Republicans requisitioned this rifle from Mexico (with its approval).
***
Regarding the anti-aircraft gun requisitioned in Valencia:
I couldn't find any official document indicating which ship it was installed on. My guess is it was on the "Jaime I" or "Jose Luis Diez."

Good details. Due to the scarcity of information on this purchase and the assembly of the machine guns in Spain, some publications have referred to them as locally manufactured.
**
I did a little research. Regarding the machine guns seized in Valencia, they were those belonging to the transport gunboat Durango. In June, 1936, S.A. Hotchkiss apologized to the Mexican ambassador in Paris for not sending the machine guns, citing a workers' strike at the factory (Levallois Perret, Seine?). They supposedly arrived in Spain in July. And they were seized in August 1936.
In the purely Spanish case, 25mm machine guns were ordered to Hotchkiss in December 1935, but these only partially arrived in April. The few seized from the Mexicans were added to the Spanish stocks and were distributed among the Republican destroyers, cruisers and battleships. Apparently Jaime I had 4 double 25mm, being one the Mexican of the Durango.

 

[Regg]

Good details. Due to the scarcity of information on this purchase and the assembly of the machine guns in Spain, some publications have referred to them as locally manufactured.

I had a list of what was brought in crates from France to Cartagena (aboard the Cyclops): the number of machine guns, the number of spare barrels and parts, the number of shells and cartridges.
Unfortunately, I can't find it now...

 

[Regg]

Apparently Jaime I had 4 double 25mm, being one the Mexican of the Durango.

So it was Jaime after all. I was more inclined to believe that this mounting went to José Luis Díez.