Spanish "pom-pom" - "Vickers 40/40" - Anti-aircraft machine gun for "Canarias".

[Regg]

Hi!
In 1936, a 40-mm anti-aircraft gun was created in Spain. Little is known about her, but even less is known about her shells. The gun was created jointly with the Vickers company and is similar to the "pom-pom".
I found one diagram with a drawing that allegedly depicts her projectile.
What is known about the shells for this gun?
In which tape were the shells stored: made of cloth or iron?

 

[Tzoli]

I would like to know more about the gun itself.

 

[Regg]

Hi!
It is claimed that the length of the barrel was 2000 mm or 50 calibers.
I compared the Spanish and British "pom-pom" they do not differ in the length of the barrel.
Due to what, then, their projectile speed is 720 m/s?
Maybe they used an HV-type projectile?

ARTILLERIA EN LA GUERRA CIVIL.PIEZAS. - Página 2 - El Gran Capitán

 

[Regg]

Maybe Tony Williams knows what kind of shells were on this gun?

 

[klem]

Here is another perspective of the gun.

 

[JohnR]

Isn't that a picture of the single barrel pom-pom used by the Italian navy?

 

[Tzoli]

Yep. Terni was owned by Vickers and they produced such guns.
The Spanish one should be Vickers-Carraca.

 

[Tony Williams]

I had not heard about this gun, but the quoted data seem rather mixed up.

The Vickers 2 pdr (and the Italian built Terni) had a 157cm barrel, which is to say L/39.25. It was generally referred to as an L/39 barrel, although in the heading to this thread the 40/40 would have meant 40mm calibre and 40 calibre length. The rate of fire was around 110 rpm, almost twice that mentioned in the Spanish data, which is odd. Possibly this was referring to a sustained rate of fire. The Vickers guns were all belt-fed, originally using a fabric belt but for the Mk VIII of the early 1930s a steel disintegrating link belt was introduced.

The 40 x 158R ammo used in the Vickers gun came in two loadings: the original (WW1 to late 1930s) fired a 900 g projectile at 610 m/s. The late-1930s high velocity (HV) loading fired a lighter 760 g projectile at 730 m/s. The ammunition was not interchangeable, the gun design was modified to fire the HV, so both ammo types remained in production during WW2. The drawing shown here seems to have the impact fuze of the HV type, rather than the original time fuze.

 

[Regg]

Here is another perspective of the gun...

No, your picture shows the MKII Vickers-Terni. There were such on HMS:

 

[Regg]

I had not heard about this gun, but the quoted data seem rather mixed up.
The Vickers 2 pdr (and the Italian built Terni) had a 157cm barrel, which is to say L/39.25. It was generally referred to as an L/39 barrel, although in the heading to this thread the 40/40 would have meant 40mm calibre and 40 calibre length...

It looks like the Spanish pompom is based on the Vickers Mk VIII.
According to my measurements, the length of the Mk VIII and Vickers 40/40 barrel is the same.
The main difference was in the long water cooling housing.
As for the length of the barrel of 40 calibers, most likely it was 39.37 and it was "rounded" to "40".
According to my version, there should have been HV shells on the Vickers 40/40.

 

[klem]

A little more info on this Maxim variant ?

 

[Regg]

A little more info on this Maxim variantView attachment 679555 ?

No, it's not our client...

 

[Temistocle]

After I recognized the stairway in the picture of post #10 (it is the War museum in Athens, Polemikò Mouseio), I remembered I have a couple of pictures of that gun.

 

[Regg]

After I recognized the stairway in the picture of post #10 (it is the War museum in Athens, Polemikò Mouseio), I remembered I have a couple of pictures of that gun.

Thanks

 

[Regg]

I had not heard about this gun, but the quoted data seem rather mixed up.

The Vickers 2 pdr (and the Italian built Terni) had a 157cm barrel, which is to say L/39.25. It was generally referred to as an L/39 barrel, although in the heading to this thread the 40/40 would have meant 40mm calibre and 40 calibre length.

It looks like the Spanish pompom is based on the Vickers Mk VIII.
According to my measurements, the length of the Mk VIII and Vickers 40/40 barrel is the same.
The main difference was in the long water cooling housing.

As for the length of the barrel of 40 calibers, most likely it was 39.37 and it was "rounded" to "40".
According to my version, there should have been HV shells on the Vickers 40/40.

 

[Regg]

Here is what they write about them ("Vickers 40/40") in the book "ARTILLERÍA Y CARROS DE COMBATE EN LA GUERRA CIVIL ESPAÑOLA" (JOSÉ MARÍA MANRIQUE GARCÍA, LUCAS MOLINA FRANCO):

(Attach)

The authors claim that the submachine guns had a barrel length of 50 calibers!
Let me remind you that according to my comparative calculations, the Spanish pom-pom was 40 (!) calibers.

 

[Tony Williams]

Here is what they write about them ("Vickers 40/40") in the book "ARTILLERÍA Y CARROS DE COMBATE EN LA GUERRA CIVIL ESPAÑOLA" (JOSÉ MARÍA MANRIQUE GARCÍA, LUCAS MOLINA FRANCO):

(Attach)

The authors claim that the submachine guns had a barrel length of 50 calibers!
Let me remind you that according to my comparative calculations, the Spanish pom-pom was 40 (!) calibers.

All books (and especially those covering a very wide range of information) are liable to contain errors - yes, even mine!

 

[Petrus]

Here is what they write about them ("Vickers 40/40") in the book "ARTILLERÍA Y CARROS DE COMBATE EN LA GUERRA CIVIL ESPAÑOLA" (JOSÉ MARÍA MANRIQUE GARCÍA, LUCAS MOLINA FRANCO):

(Attach)

The authors claim that the submachine guns had a barrel length of 50 calibers!
Let me remind you that according to my comparative calculations, the Spanish pom-pom was 40 (!) calibers.

The post in El Gran Capitan forum clearly says the gun's barrel was 2000 mm long. So it was rather fifty-calibre than forty (it must have had 1600 mm long barrel).

 

[Regg]

All books (and especially those covering a very wide range of information) are liable to contain errors - yes, even mine!

I understand. Who does not investigate - he is not mistaken!
Do you have photos and plans of HV-type projectiles?

 

[Regg]

The post in El Gran Capitan forum clearly says the gun's barrel was 2000 mm long...

I thought so too, until I compared photos of British and Spanish pom-poms.

 

[Tony Williams]

All books (and especially those covering a very wide range of information) are liable to contain errors - yes, even mine!

I understand. Who does not investigate - he is not mistaken!
Do you have photos and plans of HV-type projectiles?

All I have is this group photo of 40 x 158R rounds.

From left to right: WW1 Common Pointed HE; LV round with settable time fuze in the nose; HV round with impact fuze; TP, and finally the AP for the Vickers Class S aircraft gun used in the Hurricane IID and IV.

 

[Regg]

All I have is this group photo of 40 x 158R rounds...

Thanks

 

[Regg]

....(it is the War museum in Athens, Polemikò Mouseio), I remembered I have a couple of pictures of that gun.

Hello!
Is it possible to see this board in a higher resolution?

 

[phil gollin]

.

This may, or may NOT, be of relevance ;

VICKERS ARMSTRONGS MANUAL 40mm QF ANTI AIRCRAFT MACHINE GUN SHELL PORTUGUESE WW2 | eBay

The original models fired from hand-loaded fabric belts, although these were later replaced by steel-link belts. It was used almost exclusively in the single-barrel, unpowered pedestal mountings P Mark II, except for a small number of weapons on the mounting Mark XV, which was a twin-barreled...

www.ebay.co.uk

.

 

[Regg]

This may, or may NOT, be of relevance

No, this document refers to the Vickers MkII automatic gun.
The image from the Greek Museum shows a Vickers MkVIII single-barrel mount.

 

[Temistocle]

....(it is the War museum in Athens, Polemikò Mouseio), I remembered I have a couple of pictures of that gun.

Hello!
Is it possible to see this board in a higher resolution?

Sorry, I zoomed the picture, but nothing to read...

 

[Regg]

ry, I zoomed the picture, but nothing to read...

I also tried to enlarge the picture. It's a pity.

 

[JWilly]

I believe these are the Mark VII model, High Velocity, with manual elevation/traverse. The first image shows a gun in service on a Canadian naval vessel...post WWII but I don't know the year or ship. The other three photos show a monument-gun at, I think, Canadian Forces Base (CFB) Borden, in Ontario.

 

[Tony Williams]

I believe these are the Mark VII model, High Velocity, with manual elevation/traverse.

That's a new one to me - can you provide a source? As far as I know (Campbell's book, the NavWeaps website) all of the guns made from the start of the run-up to WW2 were Mark designated VIII, although made in many varieties, e.g. LV and HV, plus other differences in detail.

The only 2pdr Mk VII I am aware of is the quad mounting, but that used Mk VIII guns.

 

[Regg]

...As far as I know (Campbell's book, the NavWeaps website) all of the guns made from the start of the run-up to WW2 were Mark designated VIII...

photos signed: mk viii or Mk VIII

 

[JWilly]

...As far as I know (Campbell's book, the NavWeaps website) all of the guns made from the start of the run-up to WW2 were Mark designated VIII...

photos signed: mk viii or Mk VIII

Yes, most certainly Mark VIIIs. A typo on my part...sorry. The photos are from my folder of Mark VIII HV manual guns.

 

[Regg]

All books (and especially those covering a very wide range of information) are liable to contain errors - yes, even mine!

Hello Tony!
I continue to search for information about the Spanish 40-mm anti-aircraft gun ("pom-pom" Vickers 40/40).
I recently discovered this photo.
The caption indicates that the shell belongs to an anti-aircraft gun.
I doubt that this shell could be a Vickers 40/40, but it would be interesting to know whose shell it is?
I assume that it could belong to the 37 mm Maxim automatic cannon.
What do you think?

 

[Tony Williams]

Hello Tony!
I continue to search for information about the Spanish 40-mm anti-aircraft gun ("pom-pom" Vickers 40/40).
I recently discovered this photo.
The caption indicates that the shell belongs to an anti-aircraft gun.
I doubt that this shell could be a Vickers 40/40, but it would be interesting to know whose shell it is?
I assume that it could belong to the 37 mm Maxim automatic cannon.
What do you think?

Hi Regg,

Judging purely by eye, I would say that this shell is bigger than 40mm calibre - it looks more like 50mm.

The relatively small size of the cartridge case indicates a low muzzle velocity, not so good for AA use.

 

[Ravinoff]

Hello Tony!
I continue to search for information about the Spanish 40-mm anti-aircraft gun ("pom-pom" Vickers 40/40).
I recently discovered this photo.
The caption indicates that the shell belongs to an anti-aircraft gun.
I doubt that this shell could be a Vickers 40/40, but it would be interesting to know whose shell it is?
I assume that it could belong to the 37 mm Maxim automatic cannon.
What do you think?

Any date on the photo? It does look a bit like a 2pdr pom-pom shell. But if not that, and Mr. Williams is right in the post above, maybe a 65mm Cannone da 65/17, which was Italian but used by Nationalist forces during the Spanish Civil War. Leftmost HE looks similar.

 

[COLDOWN]

British/Original gun offered to Argentina in the 1930s as an antiaircraft and antitank.

https://imgur.com/2fJJnvK

View: https://imgur.com/2fJJnvK

or

Hi!
It is claimed that the length of the barrel was 2000 mm or 50 calibers.
I compared the Spanish and British "pom-pom" they do not differ in the length of the barrel.
Due to what, then, their projectile speed is 720 m/s?
Maybe they used an HV-type projectile?

ARTILLERIA EN LA GUERRA CIVIL.PIEZAS. - Página 2 - El Gran Capitán

So:

Characteristic	Vickers Original	Spaniard one
Caliber	40 mm	40 mm
Barrel length	2,000 mm (aka 50 L)	2,000 mm
Gun weight	297.1 kg
Total weight of the piece	~ 1,632 kg	2,953 kg
Vertical firing sector	+85 / -5 dg	+85 / -5 dg
Horizontal firing sector	360 dg	360 dg
Projectile weight	0.9 kg (pompom type)	0.9 kg (pompom and bofors?)
Projectile type	HE (Percussion Fuze, Time Fuze, Tracer), AP	-
Penetration	+25 mm @ 500 m, +15 mm @ 1,000 m	-
Cartridge weight	-	1.386 kg
Muzzle Velocity	750 mps	720 mps
Rate of Fire	190-200 rpm	60 rpm
Vertical Firing Range	4,500 m	4,475 m
Horizontal Firing Range	6,300 m	-

 

[Regg]

Hi!
Interesting find!
Judging by the weight of the mount, it's a single-barrel mounting.

 

[Regg]

British/Original gun offered to Argentina in the 1930s as an antiaircraft and antitank.

I apologize for the tactlessness, but I'd like to ask a few questions:
1. Do you have a plans of the mounting?
2. If not (1.), are the geometric dimensions of the mounting known?
3. Is the length of the projectile known?

 

[COLDOWN]

I apologize for the tactlessness, but I'd like to ask a few questions:
1. Do you have a plans of the mounting?
2. If not (1.), are the geometric dimensions of the mounting known?
3. Is the length of the projectile known?

No problem.

1- No plans. Just a couple of photos.

https://imgur.com/3tO082K

View: https://imgur.com/3tO082K

https://imgur.com/MW4a3tH

View: https://imgur.com/MW4a3tH

https://imgur.com/T9NXMIc

View: https://imgur.com/T9NXMIc

2- Just:
- Height from the barrel axis to the base of the mount: 1,133 mm.
- Height from the barrel axis to the base of the firing platform: 1,400 mm.

3- It is only mentioned that it is the same length as the traditional 40mm pom-pom guns.
Since the brochure was intended for Argentina, I must mention the local shells in service by lenght*:
- 158.2 mm, Italian 0.91 kg, HE (tracer) shell, time-delay fuse. "Cervantes" and "Mendoza" destroyers and "Brown" cruisers.
- 154.5 mm, British 0.90 kg, HE (self-destruct) shell, ultra-sensitive Vickers-Armstrong fuse. "Cervantes" and "Mendoza" destroyers and "Brown" cruisers.
- 146.2 mm, British 0.91 kg, exercise shell, no fuse. "La Argentina" cruiser and "Buenos Aires" destroyers.
*Apparently there were no 40mm/39cs pom-pom guns of British origin in local service, but there were 40mm/39cs pom-pom guns of Italian origin, with projectiles of both Italian and British origin. There were 40mm/39cs (sub-calibre/test) guns of British origin, for training, of course.

Regards

 

[AMAYA]

Is this anti-aircraft gun possibly used by the navy?

In my impression, the Project 138 heavy cruiser was arranged to use 40mm anti-aircraft guns, but the specific model is unknown. My friend once suspected that it would use a weapon made by Bofors, but that seems unlikely.

 

[Kanga]

No problem.

1- No plans. Just a couple of photos.

https://imgur.com/3tO082K

View: https://imgur.com/3tO082K

https://imgur.com/MW4a3tH

View: https://imgur.com/MW4a3tH

https://imgur.com/T9NXMIc

View: https://imgur.com/T9NXMIc

2- Just:
- Height from the barrel axis to the base of the mount: 1,133 mm.
- Height from the barrel axis to the base of the firing platform: 1,400 mm.

3- It is only mentioned that it is the same length as the traditional 40mm pom-pom guns.
Since the brochure was intended for Argentina, I must mention the local shells in service by lenght*:
- 158.2 mm, Italian 0.91 kg, HE (tracer) shell, time-delay fuse. "Cervantes" and "Mendoza" destroyers and "Brown" cruisers.
- 154.5 mm, British 0.90 kg, HE (self-destruct) shell, ultra-sensitive Vickers-Armstrong fuse. "Cervantes" and "Mendoza" destroyers and "Brown" cruisers.
- 146.2 mm, British 0.91 kg, exercise shell, no fuse. "La Argentina" cruiser and "Buenos Aires" destroyers.
*Apparently there were no 40mm/39cs pom-pom guns of British origin in local service, but there were 40mm/39cs pom-pom guns of Italian origin, with projectiles of both Italian and British origin. There were 40mm/39cs (sub-calibre/test) guns of British origin, for training, of course.

Regards

Wasn't La Argentina fitted with Vickers proprietary 25mm AA guns?