India's 5th generation fighter programme - from MCA to AMCA

[Geo]

Indeed it is interesting bcoz in emerging era of 6gen a new 4gen design is non-sense & equivalent to sabotage & suicide. The older ones can continue till there are 4gen jets on both sides of border.
At Aero-India 2025 a presentation cited "Fifth Gen Deck Based Fighter". There's a possibility that AMCA could be navalised like F-35, J-35, rather than clean-sheet design needing more time, money. Or may be that 4gen TEDBF might get modified with IWBs & 2 rudders.

View attachment 800906


There is also inidcation of HFA (Heavy Fighter Aircraft) via 125-145 KN engine, apparently 5.5-6gen to be better than AMCA & replace Su-30MKI.
So Su-57 cannot be bought in bulk to save resources for this project.

View attachment 800907

Honestly, even just looking at the TEDBF mock-up (especially the latest one from Aero India 2025) raises doubts about the concept itself.
I think that, unlike the AMCA, it should accept an offer of Russian cooperation on a future carrier-based fighter, if such an offer appears.
It’s a very demanding category, and at least in terms of aerodynamics and operational aspects, such cooperation can be very useful and bring significant savings in time and costs, which could be used for other programs.
The Mikoyan design bureau (now within UAC’s combat aircraft division) has long been working on the concept of a fifth-generation carrier-based complex, including a fighter, which could be developed if the state armament program includes aircraft carriers (which may have happened, but it is not public).
https://ria.ru/20210726/istrebitel-1742843236.html

 

[Low IQ Techie]

Okay, thank you.
And one more personal note:
I really wish Indians their own super fighter. They have what it takes, they are intelligent and skilled people.

Human DNA same everywhere, even in last few jungle tribals. Difference lies in education, initiative, opportunity, requirement, management & raw materials.
India is facing past management issues which is being tried to be solved with PPP.

 

[snne]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2018885590994022694

View: https://x.com/prasannavishy/status/2018885590994022694?s=20

 

[FighterJock]

Surprised at HAL being out of the race and India going private for the AMCA I wonder what will happen with the stealth technology and who will get the contract for that? Also Tata is another surprise.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

Honestly, it's enough... HAL and the whole Indian aviation industry is almost like Stavatti! Fancy models, bolt claims but otherwise NOTHING!!

There's nothing fancy about 5gen tech anymore. DRDO has developed RAM, RAS, EW, etc. Other coponents are being developed. That's how technology is expected to evolve. Regular people treat things like UFO, OMG! But it takes time for a generation of people to educate, gain experience, try something new.
ISRO, DRDO, etc doing well but ADA, HAL, etc not doing well. Such things are found everywhere.

I know Indians especially won't like to hear this—they're currently in the midst of their celebrations—but what's the point? Teja's Mk. 1A is long overdue, and the Mk. 2 hasn't even had its rollout yet!

That's why HAL, etc won't be trusted with AMCA. The IAF Air Chief Marshal has also publicly criticized & PPP is happening. GoI/MoD is publicly punishing its under-performing DPSUs.

AMCA's design isn't finalized (even according to IDRW they are still diligently working on the geometry), and none of the three mentioned suppliers have any experience in the complete implementation of such a project. They've all certainly developed and built things here and there, and perhaps even manufactured some as suppliers for HAL, but how is a project that isn't even fully thought in CAD supposed to be ready for its maiden flight by 2028/29 made by a team that has never done such a task??

Gradually all public-eye details come out. There's 1st time for everything.
India has sufficient Supercomputing, automation, logistics, area for facilities, professionals, etc.
It looks like ADA's initial design so far will be made & assembled as Mk1 but not by HAL.
Missing tools & machines are being made or imported.
All components will be made by suppliers as usual.
Everything will be coordinated by MoD.

Additionally IDRW is a tabloid that lately seems to be putting more effort into generating nonsensical images with AI than into accurate reporting!

If Chinese, American, Russian, European, etc projects remain secret till official public revealing, with their speculated animations, advertisements to entertain, motivate their citizens, ... then same thing for Indian projects & plans.
And there're many channels, sites, groups, institutions, etc by teams & individuals.

I would almost bet that AMCA 203x is nothing more than a collection of funny AI pictures, models and lots of promises in the vein of "Jai Hind"!

How do Chinese people cheer China? Something like "Zhōngguó wànsuì" (中国万岁) or "Wǒ ài zhōngguó" (我爱中国)? How would they respond if these emotions are insulted?
When IAF ACM is furious then this PPP plan has to work, otherwise there could be military defeat, economic collapse & civil war.
It feels good to be in better position but there's thin line b/w constructive criticism & reflexive cursing escalating unnecessary hostility.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

Honestly, even just looking at the TEDBF mock-up (especially the latest one from Aero India 2025) raises doubts about the concept itself.
I think that, unlike the AMCA, it should accept an offer of Russian cooperation on a future carrier-based fighter, if such an offer appears.
It’s a very demanding category, and at least in terms of aerodynamics and operational aspects, such cooperation can be very useful and bring significant savings in time and costs, which could be used for other programs.
The Mikoyan design bureau (now within UAC’s combat aircraft division) has long been working on the concept of a fifth-generation carrier-based complex, including a fighter, which could be developed if the state armament program includes aircraft carriers (which may have happened, but it is not public).
https://ria.ru/20210726/istrebitel-1742843236.html

That 4gen TEDBF is identical to Rafale & makes no sense technically, especially when Rafale-M would be imported as stopgap.



Russia has not disclosed Su-33 replacement, a naval Su-57 or Su-75, etc.

This linked article says about 5gen naval jet the size of MiG-35/29, so when F-35C, J-35 are closest size match then IMO a navalised AMCA can be a good option to save money & time. Below i used CAD made by 2 Indian CAD artists to compare AMCA & TEDBF.



But a future solution IMO would be a heavy 5.5-6gen fighter for both IN & IAF, can be called AHCA, an inflated AMCA, or something identical to Su-57 having long IWB for naval weapons. But this needs a separate thread to discuss.

 

[Scorpion82]

That TEDBF render looks like not well thought through fan art. Was that an official render of the design? How can somebody uglyfy the beautiful Rafale in such a way?

 

[helmutkohl]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. TEDBF is a dumb idea. Designing a new airframe for a very small order, exclusively used by the Indian Navy, is not cost effective.
the airframe despite its stealth shaping in some parts, relies on external stores. Basically it is the KF-21 without the potential for future IWB.
would have been better had they just take the AMCA and make a naval derivative.
they also could have piggy backed with the Koreans, as KAI proposed the KF-21N version as well.

 

[Geo]

That TEDBF render looks like not well thought through fan art. Was that an official render of the design? How can somebody uglyfy the beautiful Rafale in such a way?

This is the latest TEDBF model from Aero India 2025.
Unfortunately this is not a joke.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Btw this thread will celebrate its 17th birthday in a few days. It started with the beautiful AMCA model for aerodynamic measurements...
Yes, seventeenth.

And I thought that the US system was bad.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

This is the latest TEDBF model from Aero India 2025.
Unfortunately this is not a joke.

No, it is a joke as per 5gen+. We should congratulate the people who put this model out & ask them how will it counter 5gen adversaries for next 40 years, leave 6gen.
Educated Indians paying taxes who understand technology, they feel embarrassed. But when IN has indicated 5gen TEDBF, it would change things & this model may not be seen in next Aero-India 2027. The current bidding consortiums might have raised the point of naval AMCA.

they also could have piggy backed with the Koreans, as KAI proposed the KF-21N version as well.

The idea may have occured, but the concerns were F414 engine, production & servicing on time of S.Korean components in India not S.Korea, non-stealthy features like exposed AAMs on belly, some vents & grills, bumps, blade antennas, etc, & last but least - AMCA project impact.

 

[AGS-1787]

It sounds to me like they need to get on the Sukhoi su-57, and su-75 production and develop their own indigenous variants while they figure what are they going to build on their own

 

[Geo]

Indeed it is interesting bcoz in emerging era of 6gen a new 4gen design is non-sense & equivalent to sabotage & suicide. The older ones can continue till there are 4gen jets on both sides of border.
At Aero-India 2025 a presentation cited "Fifth Gen Deck Based Fighter". There's a possibility that AMCA could be navalised like F-35, J-35, rather than clean-sheet design needing more time, money. Or may be that 4gen TEDBF might get modified with IWBs & 2 rudders.

View attachment 800906


There is also inidcation of HFA (Heavy Fighter Aircraft) via 125-145 KN engine, apparently 5.5-6gen to be better than AMCA & replace Su-30MKI.
So Su-57 cannot be bought in bulk to save resources for this project.

View attachment 800907

I'm really uncomfortable with this, I don't want to criticize but... why are transport aircraft depicted in the HALE UAV category?

 

[Low IQ Techie]

I'm really uncomfortable with this, I don't want to criticize but... why are transport aircraft depicted in the HALE UAV category?

May be they changed the design of UAV, or they made the slide in hurry.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

It sounds to me like they need to get on the Sukhoi su-57, and su-75 production and develop their own indigenous variants while they figure what are they going to build on their own

I think that's what will happen, small numbers of Su-57 & Su-75.
If HFA/AHCA is desired then Su-57 cannot be bought in bulk but it can act as a precursor to HFA/AHCA.
If Tejas-2 MWF is desired then Su-75 cannot be bought in bulk.
If Su-75 import is desired then Tejas-2 MWF should not be made in bulk.
When IN has indicated 5gen TEDBF then IAF already has 5gen AMCA plan. This 4gen MWF when ready can continue in place of Tejas-1 LCA, no point in making both together.
But all 4gen jets will need front cover of 5/6 gen jets. Any light/medium jet practically flies with 1 or 2 EFTs & constrained combat load, so MWF should have been made stealthy from beginning like Su-75.

 

[Flyaway]

From what others have said on here about HAL’s past performance this sounds like a highly sensible decision.

India’s nascent aerospace and defense industry took a big step forward in February. It was not just a contract award or a production decision—it was the removal of a longstanding and very big obstacle to the industry’s growth.

First, India announced that the largest defense deal in the country’s history—for 114 Dassault Aviation Rafale fighters—would involve local production by Tata Advanced Systems Ltd. (TASL) and/or Reliance Industries, not Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL). Second, the Indian government also announced that its planned next-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) would be competed and that HAL would not be eligible. Instead, the three bidders would be TASL and two consortia, one led by Bharat Forge Ltd. and the other by Larsen & Toubro Ltd.

These announcements are extremely significant. For decades, HAL had almost total control of the Indian combat aircraft market, one of the largest export fighter markets in the world. HAL was the prime contractor on national fighter aircraft; it handled all license production of imported aircraft, and it was the primary beneficiary of offsets from imported aircraft. HAL built and sustained hundreds of Russian and British aircraft in Indian Air Force and Indian Navy service.

The problem is that HAL’s performance has been subpar, at best. Air Chief Marshal Amar Preet Singh, chief of India’s Air Staff, was heard at Aero India 2025 saying that he has “no confidence” in HAL. This frustration is understandable. For more than 40 years, the company has been working on the Light Combat Aircraft, also known as the Tejas. The Tejas is a relatively lightweight and unambitious design, but only a few dozen have been inducted since production model deliveries began in 2016.

https://aviationweek.com/defense/bu...rtial-fighter-exit-brightens-indias-aerospace

 

[BonPlan2]

Honestly, even just looking at the TEDBF mock-up (especially the latest one from Aero India 2025) raises doubts about the concept itself.
I think that, unlike the AMCA, it should accept an offer of Russian cooperation on a future carrier-based fighter, if such an offer appears.
It’s a very demanding category, and at least in terms of aerodynamics and operational aspects, such cooperation can be very useful and bring significant savings in time and costs, which could be used for other programs.
The Mikoyan design bureau (now within UAC’s combat aircraft division) has long been working on the concept of a fifth-generation carrier-based complex, including a fighter, which could be developed if the state armament program includes aircraft carriers (which may have happened, but it is not public).
https://ria.ru/20210726/istrebitel-1742843236.html

If India ink anothe Rafale M deal, TEDBF or any other project will be scrapped.

 

[BonPlan2]

KAI proposed the KF-21N version as well.

If it is as serious as sea Gripen or Sea Eurofighter, it is pure BS.

 

[Geo]

If India ink anothe Rafale M deal, TEDBF or any other project will be scrapped.

Yes, it is quite possible that India, along with France, will decide not to abandon these proven technologies. Why not? It is ok.

 

[Ainen]

If India ink anothe Rafale M deal, TEDBF or any other project will be scrapped.

Then they'll be stuck with Mig-29k as the only aircraft you can at least strike down for decades(or when they'll die).
India, despite delays, for now is just covering its intended aircraft numbers for MMRCA(126 originally intended, 36+114 eventual) and navy aircraft (54 goal).

If it is as serious as sea Gripen or Sea Eurofighter, it is pure BS.

To be fair - SK was for a couple of years on a trajectory to a carrier. This was still highly unlikely, but nowhere near same degree of (un)likelihood.

 

[helmutkohl]

https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/india-amca-stealth-fighter-export-potential/

 

[Geo]

https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/india-amca-stealth-fighter-export-potential/

This article still had 14 days to be published.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

If India ink anothe Rafale M deal, TEDBF or any other project will be scrapped.

Bcoz it takes 15-20 yrs to develop & induct a jet & then further 40-50 yrs of service, total 60-70 yrs, hence a brand new 4gen means maing a target practice object (TPO) for 5gen & then 6gen is supposed to defeat 5gen.
IN already indicated 5gen TEDBF at Aero India 2025 hence at least a 5gen TEDBF project should be started this year where some Indians wan't to navalise AMCA like F-35-C, or the 4gen delta canard can be made 5gen, either option with a new better engine by domestic effort or JV.
While some Indian desire 6gen TEDBF, import FCAS.
Hence Rafale-M is also 4gen but if signed this year for limited numbers, can start delivery after 3 yrs as stopgap, but if 4gen TEDBF flies this year also will take long time to start inducting.

 

[Deino]

https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/india-amca-stealth-fighter-export-potential/

They are so funny ... instaed of at least building & testing it once, they are again wet-dreaming for exports.

By the way:



via https://igmp.in/india-full-ipr-ownership-120kn-amca-engine-gtre-safran/

And that's exactly how you've once again shot yourself in the knee,,, SAFRAN will never respond to this clause or just deliver older technology that is therefore irrelevant for all its other civil and military projects.

 

[Grey Havoc]

That will certainly end in tears...

 

[Geo]

The AMCA is the aircraft of the future. And always will be.

 

[FighterJock]

I really want the AMCA to succeed Geo, I really do.

 

[Deino]

I really want the AMCA to succeed Geo, I really do.

Me too, but it's like at school, where I also wish every student success, only if said students do not do their homework for months or even years, always know exactly what they are supposed to be entitled to and hold others responsible for their failure, then success often becomes difficult.

 

[FighterJock]

That is the dificult part of the whole AMCA program Deino, not knowing IF it will succeed. It is an improtant fighter program for the IAF.

 

[snne]

...

 

[Manuducati]

Same in color

 

[Ainen]

Me too, but it's like at school, where I also wish every student success, only if said students do not do their homework for months or even years, always know exactly what they are supposed to be entitled to and hold others responsible for their failure, then success often becomes difficult.

Well, indians do make planes and have growing economy in principle, so they do some of their homework. But they don't get punished for just ordering it from outsiders either.

Everything after that comes down to realistic priority - it's low. India is just not a country under threat. Air force is instrument of deterrence (or sufficient speed bump for nuclear deterrence to function), as well for inconsequential border skirmishes with Pakistan (which can't be consequential as neither has even a slim hope for disarming strike).

Which turns it into usual competition between users (who doesn't a want european car, tinder photo profile matters...but they also need to fly) and government/industry (employment for generation).

Pakistani at the same time get BYDs with better specs for 1/3 the price, even Vietnam does Vinfast all by itself. But it doesn't really matter. India is not under threat.

 

[FighterJock]

That is until China sells it's J-35AE to Pakistan then India will be under threat.

 

[snne]

That is until China sells it's J-35AE to Pakistan then India will be under threat.

We have recently seen a large-scale joint aerial campaign by the US and Israel against Iran, including the use of a sizeable stealth aircraft force; yet the Iranian state, military and society have endured despite decades of heavy sanctions and embargoes.

Having a couple squadrons of advanced aircraft is one thing; posing a credible threat to a nuclear-armed country as populous, geographically large and globally integrated as India is quite another. The only scenario that might truly endanger India’s survival would be a joint all-out invasion by China and the combined NATO; and even then, the level of threat would still be highly questionable as long as India does not experience societal collapse.

Remember, spending many dozens of billions on aircraft that may ultimately rust away is not particularly productive when those resources could instead be directed toward improving your citizens’ quality of life...

 

[snne]

...

 

[Ainen]

That is until China sells it's J-35AE to Pakistan then India will be under threat.

I don't think couple of J-35AE squadrons will threaten India with disarming strike.
I frankly doubt they will even have any substantial freedom of operation - India has an air force, air defense system, etc. Rafale isn't a 5th gen counter, but even "as is" it has at least a non-negligeable ambush chance. Su-30s will eventually get powerful radards, and so on.
We already saw, that even *some*, minimum interceptor capability would've seriously helped Iran and complicated US/Israeli planning. India doesn't have just some, it has air force twice the size of Pakistan.

Which is important - Pakistan isn't US, it can't really afford to lose it's core assets; J-35AE is not F-35A, it doesn't have a functionally endless pool behind it. At most (though that will already be quite humiliating) we'll see Indian AF operational area pushed further back, as it already happened.

But Indian state survival isn't tied to air superiority in the first place.

 

[FighterJock]

Thanks Ainen.

 

[Christmas Day dumplings]

We already saw, that even *some*, minimum interceptor capability would've seriously helped Iran and complicated US/Israeli planning. India doesn't have just some, it has air force twice the size of Pakistan.

But the IAF is not facing Pakistan alone.

Moreover, the IAF's 42-squadron strength was planned under the assumption that it would barely need to contend with the PLAF. By that benchmark, India would require 62 squadrons to deal with both the Pakistani and Chinese air forces simultaneously — yet it currently has fewer than 30.

Approximately 120 Rafales and around 100 LCAs, if delivered quickly, could significantly ease the pressure on the IAFs fleet numbers.

However, rapid delivery seems unlikely.

 

[snne]

But the IAF is not facing Pakistan alone.

Moreover, the IAF's 42-squadron strength was planned under the assumption that it would barely need to contend with the PLAF. By that benchmark, India would require 62 squadrons to deal with both the Pakistani and Chinese air forces simultaneously — yet it currently has fewer than 30.

Approximately 120 Rafales and around 100 LCAs, if delivered quickly, could significantly ease the pressure on the IAFs fleet numbers.

However, rapid delivery seems unlikely.

What y'all are not getting is that India is hopelessly outmatched by China in any contingency (whether economically, geopolitically, industrially, or technologically) that doesn't involve an all-out invasion of India proper - even the combined US military and certain allies in the Pacific could not defeat China for certain by themselves. So instead of pursuing a China policy that actively provokes them, trying to find areas of common interest is in everyone's interest.

China does indeed enjoy arming Pakistan to "contain" India and keep it busy, but it is also in India's interest to face Pakistan occasionally rather than China itself.

Dozens of billions of dollars worth of investment in arms are dead investments in any scenario that doesn't involve armed conflict, and as such, those funds could be better utilized to further develop the country. For a still-developing country, it makes far more sense to invest in development than in escalation. As long as neither side is ruled by retards, finding common ground is far easier than starting a costly war or conflict.

 

[Ainen]

But the IAF is not facing Pakistan alone.

Against PLAAF IAF for the last half a decade isn't worth much, and neither LCA nor Rafale can seriously move the needle. Neither will AMCA, whenever it'll come.

Moreover, compared to PLAAF, whether PAF has or doesn't have couple sq J-35AE doesn't matter much - as understanding seems to be yearly production of the type will be substantially higher than this number.

IAF, politics aside, is not concerned with PLAAF - we can say it from procurement. Otherwise it'll be doing something similar/same to Russia did. Or even Iran/DPRK, ie countries that can't match the threat(and know that), but follow the best course available.
India, on the other hand, is quite chill.