AIM-120 AMRAAM

noister said:
It is a boost only, aim120d uses same motor as c5.

Aim120d3 gets new motor
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Capital letters for the tri-services designations, please:

AIM-120D not Aim-120d

As for boost only burn-profile I find that surprising as I'd have thought that the AIM-120D would've used a boost-sustain burn-profile for extended range.
 
kizvy said:
aim-120c-5 till aim 120-d uses the same motor. aim-120d-3 (f3r) uses the newer motor.
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iirc the later variants of the aim-120C-7s and all aim-120Ds got a VCAS size decrease to fit a larger motor, while the C-5 never got this treatment.




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https://www.acc.af.mil/Portals/92/Docs/Fact Sheets - 2020 Update/Facts Sheets 2022 Final/AIM-120_final.pdf


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https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading Room/Selected_Acquisition_Reports/FY_2015_SARS/16-F-0402_DOC_14_AMRAAM_DEC_2015_SAR.pdf (on page 7)
 
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I'll dump some stuff on the AMRAAM here. Most of this info comes from "gunjob" or "flame2512", a senior tech mod on the war thunder forum for the former and the latter being a seemingly avid british weaponry enthusiast. Both have access to various british archival docs. It's also mostly aim-120a/b information, I'll post some C information later but those are going to be a LOT more fragmentary.

Sources are going to be added as "spoilers".

All of the images in this post should be from primary sources. I'll probably compile a second post from sources that are less concrete, secondary/tertiary sources.

Open the images in new tabs if you want to view the image in a bigger forum, just made it shorter here so it's easire to digest. If people request, I'll delete the images and just upload them as "attatchments" if they find this post too long.

Amraam Evolution through the years from US air force:
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Most of the rest of the images are going to be from the British National Archives.
Performance data for 120A/Firing Envelopes (sea harrier)
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https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16459422

Aim-120B sequence of events diagram
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Sparrow vs Amraam comparison (sparrow is probably limited by seekerhead range, though that's just a hunch)
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Aim-120A max range vs Active Sky Flash
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Aim-120A "cruise/loft" profile, presumably from a 40k feet launch
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aim-120 General overview (mostly redacted unfortunately)
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This one is less redacted but has almost no useful information
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noister said:
It is a boost only, aim120d uses same motor as c5.

Aim120d3 gets new motor
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not sure if base d-3 gets the new motor, or f3r is the only one that gets new motor. Also I'm unsure the difference between d-3, f3r, or even if they're 2 different things
 
Teptagon said:
page 17 of the paper: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/trecms/pdf/AD1178142.pdf
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Wow, DTIC.MIL! it must be legit, right?

The problem for anyone citing this paper is that I can read. ;)

And if you, the reader, can also read, I invite you to read with me.

First, this is paper is simply a university paper written by a student at the Marine Corps University. (I'm sorry to say, but it is a poorly written paper as well.) It is UNCLASS and all sources cited are unclassified, public domain sources.

Let's look at some of the citations provided by the Major who authored the paper!

One of the citations for information concerning the PL-15 is this article right here: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-07-20/new-chinese-weapons-seen-j-10c-fighter

Is AIN Online an authoritative source on Chinese AAMs? No? Well, does this article provide any sources of its own? Also no?

OK then, moving on.

Another source that the Major provided for the 300-400km PL-15 range is this crappy mess of an article from globalsecurity:
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/pl-15.htm
This article reads like it was written by a mentally challenged early-model AI. At one point it starts rambling for several paragraphs about videogames and female knights and Warhammer40k, evidently because these words are associated with some NATO codename for a missile.

Anyway, what source does globalsecurity, a website that was kind of reputable decades ago and now seems to be run by Grok's special needs little cousin, provide?

Well, it turns out that globalsecurity's article is in large parts just a direct plagiarism of this article from Sputnik: https://sputnikglobe.com/20170127/china-missile-pentagon-1050085721.html

Sputnik, which is Russian state media, quotes one Vasilly Kashin, a Russian military "expert." Sputnik has an interest in playing up the weakness of America. Is Kashin a propagandist, or is he giving us his honest military assessment of the PL-15? Does he have inside information thanks to his relationships with his Chinese counterparts, or is he just making shit up? He doesn't tell us, so I'll let you decide.

Keep in mind, I found this in 2 minutes, yet the Major cited this rambling plagiarized globalsecurity article as his source for the PL-15's range figures.

Moving on!

What source does the Major provide for the AIM-120D's characteristics and capabilities? Remember, this is an UNCLASS document.

The source provided is this article right here: https://sameerjoshi73.medium.com/ea...going-air-to-air-missile-cold-war-ed2a1cb1323

The author, one Sameer Joshi, "is a former fighter pilot with extensive experience on the Mirage 2000 and MiG 21 aircraft of the IAF." He now runs some kind of Indian drone startup: https://newspace.co.in/

What are Mr. Joshi's sources for the AIM-120D? He doesn't say, except to acknowledge at the end of his Medium article: "Andreas Rupprecht, Warzone, Janes Defence Weekly, Airpower Australia and Tony Osborne in the Aviation Week."

We can also point out that given when and where Mr. Joshi served as a pilot, he would have never been equipped with an AIM-120D himself.

In addition to citing Mr. Joshi as his source, the Major also plagiarizes large portions of Mr. Joshi's Medium article.

From the Major's paper:

"China’s PL-15 BVRAAM is one of the most advanced BVRAAMs developed by the 607 Institute. The PL-15 is a significant upgrade of the PL-12; utilizing a modified and upgraded tail control assembly as well as smaller fins to allow it to fit internally within the J-20’s internal weapons bay (a total of four missiles) facilitating the J-20 low observable signature. The most significant upgrade of the PL-15 is the dual pulsed solid state rocket motor capable of a maximum speed of Mach 4 allowing the missile to engage and destroy targets at standoff ranges up to 300-400 km. The speed and range of the PL-15 missile create a no escape zone (NEZ) – the area in front of the launching aircraft where the bandit/enemy aircraft can be successfully engaged regardless of the maneuver it attempts – that is much larger than the US AIM-120 generating a higher probability of kill (Pk). In addition to the large range, the PL-15 utilizes a two-way data link that allows for inflight dynamic re-targeting from the original shooter or from solutions generated by offboard remote sensors. The missiles active electronically scanned array (AESA) seeker has a narrow target acquisition beam generating an exceptional electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM) capability"

From Mr. Joshi's article:

"An evolution of the PL-12, the PL-15 has been redesigned with a cropped main and tail control fins with a smaller wingspan to fit into the internal weapon bay of the next generation J-20 and the J-31 fighters. It is powered by a dual pulse rocket motor, giving it an estimated range of 200 km with a large NEZ. It is equipped with a two-way datalink for dynamic re-targetting in air. The active seeker uses an AESA aperture developed by No. 607 institute, which has a narrow target acquisition beam. The AESA seeker also gives robust ECCM capability. The missile was tested in 2015 and now equips the J-10C and the J-16s, as well as the limited number of J-20s in service. observable (LO) features. It is also believed that mid course target update may also be available vide special mission aircraft like the KJ-2000/500/200 AEW&C, much similar to the passive guidance available on the AIM-120D AMRAAM. Like the US, China has realises the challenges of squeezing more missiles into the weapons bay of LO fighter, with four PL-15s fitting into the bay of the J-20."

This paper is formatted according to the Chicago Manual of Style. The Major does properly cite Mr. Joshi here. He has committed plagiarism by rephrasing Mr. Joshi's work without attribution, passing it off as his own writing.

In conclusion, rather than referencing this poorly-written academic disgrace of a paper, why not take a couple of minutes to look at the sources?

From now on, when discussing the AIM-120D's rocket motor, we can all cite the Medium article by retired IAF pilot Sameer Joshi instead of referencing the dishonorable paper that plagiarized it.

Unless our goal is to trick people into thinking we have an authoritative source when they see the dtic.mil URL ;)
 
joshjosh said:
From now on, when discussing the AIM-120D's rocket motor, we can all cite the Medium article by retired IAF pilot Sameer Joshi instead of referencing the dishonorable paper that plagiarized it.

Unless our goal is to trick people into thinking we have an authoritative source when they see the dtic.mil URL ;)
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aight that makes sense. so anyone saying aim-120d has dual pulse on the war thunder forums are basically spouting horse manure lmao
 
I'm not sure what to think because the supposed range increase the AIM-120D has over the C7 doesn't make sense without some change to the rocket motor. Yes, optimizations to the missile's flight trajectory can buy you some increase, but not as much as the numbers often cited. (50% but compared to what subvariant?) A lofting flight profile in the AIM-120 is not a new thing.

Also, I don't think there is any truth to the notion that the rocket motor on the AIM-120C is boost-only. Official fact sheets contradict that and all-else being equal that would get you less total range, not more.
 
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Colonial-Marine said:
I'm not sure what to think because the supposed range increase the AIM-120D has over the C7 doesn't make sense without some change to the rocket motor. Yes, optimizations to the missile's flight trajectory can buy you some increase, but not as much as the numbers often cited. (50% but compared to what subvariant?) A lofting flight profile in the AIM-120 is not a new thing.

Also, I don't think there is any truth to the notion that the rocket motor on the AIM-120C is boost-only. Official fact sheets contradict that and all-else being equal that would get you less total range, not more.
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It's likely just battery life. This is for aim 120c 1773860157492.png
 

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kizvy said:
aight that makes sense. so anyone saying aim-120d has dual pulse on the war thunder forums are basically spouting horse manure lmao
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I didn't say that! I just demonstrated that this particular Marine Corps University paper is nothing special and just plagiarizes a Medium article by a retired Indian Air Force pilot.

Presumably people have other sources that show the AIM-120D has a dual-pulse motor. Right? Feel free to post them here. I have another five minutes to spare. ;)
 
kizvy said:
it is all boost. there's another brochure from ATK systems that says the same thing. I'll see if I can find it again
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This seems counterintuitive. I'll assume here the thrust output is lower but lasts for a longer period of time than the boost phase on the older AMRAAM rocket motors. Yet a boost/sustain configuration using the same newer propellant should still work better in-theory.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
I'm not sure what to think because the supposed range increase the AIM-120D has over the C7 doesn't make sense without some change to the rocket motor. Yes, optimizations to the missile's flight trajectory can buy you some increase, but not as much as the numbers often cited. (50% but compared to what subvariant?) A lofting flight profile in the AIM-120 is not a new thing.
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Currently we have no idea on how the aim120Ds range increased 50% in comparison to the C-7, and all claims about how it did are assumptions. So only time can tell
ps: could you send me where you got the 50% number that isnt from either reddit, wikipedia, wings of glory, or gaijin


Colonial-Marine said:
Also, I don't think there is any truth to the notion that the rocket motor on the AIM-120C is boost-only. Official fact sheets contradict that and all-else being equal that would get you less total range, not more.
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Could you send those sources that contradict the boost-only? I need to check them out
 
The high performance propulsion section uses a single, reduced-smoke hydroxyl-terminated polybutadiene solid propellant in a boost-sustain configuration, encased in an asbestos-free insulated steel case (an integral part of the weapon).It is also equipped with an integral aft closure/blast tube/nozzle assembly with a removable exit cone. Beginning with the AIM-120C-7 the missile has an enhanced motor with an additional 5 inches of propellant and is commonly referred to as the"+5 rocket motor".
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https://www.acc.af.mil/Portals/92/D...ate/Facts Sheets 2022 Final/AIM-120_final.pdf
 
The AMRAAM Pre-Planned Product Improvement (P3I) program takes advantage of emerging technologies to update and expand the system capabilities to meetnew user requirements. The Phase 1 missile, currently in production, allows carriage on the F-22 with clipped wings and fins as well as providing some software enhancements. The phase 2 AIM-120 C4 missile adds lethality and the AIM-120 C5 missile adds kinematic improvements with a new warhead and +5 inch rocket motor. The first phase 2 missile will be AIM-120 C4s delivered in Aug of FY99. The AIM-120 C5 missiles will begin delivery in Jul of FY00
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https://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/Portals/84/documents/FY00/AFD-070223-225.pdf?ver=2016-08-10-143046-310
 
Teptagon said:
Could you send those sources that contradict the boost-only? I need to check them out
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They were just the sort of rather generic USAF fact sheets like the one already posted in this thread. If I come across any again I'll save and post them but based on the other information here it seems like it is indeed boost-only. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me as to why that is. Perhaps some higher energy formulas of propellent cannot use a boost-sustain configuration? I suppose this is where I just have to shrug and say I'm not a rocket scientist.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
They were just the sort of rather generic USAF fact sheets like the one already posted in this thread. If I come across any again I'll save and post them but based on the other information here it seems like it is indeed boost-only. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me as to why that is. Perhaps some higher energy formulas of propellent cannot use a boost-sustain configuration? I suppose this is where I just have to shrug and say I'm not a rocket scientist.
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The so called booster is pretty weak in comparison to other missiles booster like a sparrow

Just imagine it like the AIM-54 or AIM-174B, where it just has one long booster
After all having a boost/sustainer config isn’t always a better option
 
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Teptagon said:
Currently we have no idea on how the aim120Ds range increased 50% in comparison to the C-7, and all claims about how it did are assumptions. So only time can tell
ps: could you send me where you got the 50% number that isnt from either reddit, wikipedia, wings of glory, or gaijin
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The 50% range increase over the C7 is as old as is the dual-pulse rocket motor. The later didn't make it, the former has "survived". If I had to speculate the 50% isn't achieved and simply carried on, despite of the motor enableing it never beinh fielded. If it has a boost only stage it may achieve a 50% range increase under specific circumstances though. That's often a problem with those relative numbers, the baseline is often too cloudy to make much out of such a statement.
 

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