South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[Frank111]

This seems as good as place as any to ask, did south africa ever attempt to create a new traked tank? Not the rooikat (even if that was really a wheeled tank) but something to replace the Centurions.

Yes there were the TDD project in the late 80's, went into the early 90's and ended up like other projects cancelled. There is one to see at the Armor Museum in Bloemfontein.

 

[DevilO6]

The sensor array on the front seems be the Reutech ETS2400 or RTS6400 or variant thereof?

ETS2400

 

[PLK]

Another early hour of the morning question, what does the MPWAVS acronym stand for?

Regards.

according to a former MechanologyDesign Bureau (MDB) homepage - Modular Mine Protected Wheeled Armoured Vehicle System (MPWAVS)

 

[estian12]

D project in th

Yes there were the TDD project in the late 80's, went into the early 90's and ended up like other projects cancelled. There is one to see at the Armor Museum in Bloemfontein.

Olifant MK1B Optimum is actually SA's most modern tank, being tested in the early 2000's, I believe 2002, official LIW documentation actually calls the Optimum turret the Olifant 2 turret...TTD's technology was carried into Optimum turret..

 

[tround1]

140mm g2 ammunitions

 

[kaiserbill]

That is very interesting Tround1.
I had been keen to see what they had done on the 140mm base bleed projectile for a long time, since reading about it over 2 decades ago.
That's a range increase of between 25 to 30%.
Thanks.

 

[Chris G]

Very nice find.

That is the Kiewiet prototype.

2 vehicles were presented to the SA Army for evaluation during 1981/2 against the requirements of Project Sireb.
This was a project looking at a Buffel replacement.
The vehicle was developed by Armscor and was based on a SAMIL-20 chassis.
This Kiewiet was one of them.

The other was the Wildebees 1, a far more advanced vehicle using a monocoque design, but with SAMIL-20 components.

These two vehicles then morphed into Project Sireb, which saw developments of the Kiewiet and Wildebees vehicles, labelled the Mark 2 in both instances, put forward. The Bulldog APC was the third vehicle trialled in Project Sireb.
The only pic I've seen of Kiewiet 2, the follow up to this vehicle, showed that it had a longer chassis, and a different front, being longer and differently shaped.
I think Project Sireb was then replaced with Project Remark a year or 2 later, which saw different, more developed and advanced vehicles tendered.

I test drove this vehicle during military service. Drove from Pretoria through South West Africa up to Tsumeb. What an experience

 

[kaiserbill]

I test drove this vehicle during military service. Drove from Pretoria through South West Africa up to Tsumeb. What an experience

Any further recollections or thoughts on the vehicle?
I assume you also drove the Buffel and Casspir?
How did it compare? ( I know the Casspir was streets ahead of the Buffel design wise and in capability, even though they were quite close timewise)

 

[samuelSA23]

I came across a photo showing a Milan ATGM on a Gecko — does anyone know if units ever field-adapted Milan launchers on Geckos, or was this a parade/one-off thing?

 

[stimpy75]

and here again we have to thank Wiedzmin for finding those pictures
in the links there are further pictures

Getty Images

Getty Images UK. Find high resolution royalty-free images, editorial stock photos, vector art, video footage clips and stock music licensing at the richest image search photo library online.

www.gettyimages.co.uk

Getty Images

Getty Images UK. Find high resolution royalty-free images, editorial stock photos, vector art, video footage clips and stock music licensing at the richest image search photo library online.

www.gettyimages.co.uk

Getty Images

Getty Images UK. Find high resolution royalty-free images, editorial stock photos, vector art, video footage clips and stock music licensing at the richest image search photo library online.

www.gettyimages.co.uk

 

[stimpy75]

again we have to thank Wiedzmin
didn't know you guys had this interesting vehicle

 

[kaiserbill]

A bit of background on these tank ARV's from VEG magazine.

 

[kaiserbill]

The article above mentions near the end that these Mk1A ARV's were to be replaced in turn with a Mk1B ARV when the heavier Olifant Mk1B was taken into service, but this was cancelled with the end of hostilities.
Below is the bridge layer chassis based on the Mk1B, so the ARV would have used this chassis configuration.
I suspect the follow on VEG magazine article on the Mk1B will have more information.

Edit: Correction..the Mk1A ARV was to continue, with a Mk1B based BARV and MRV being developed.

 

[FrangibleCover]

Does anyone have any images of the Casspir SIGINT variant? It's mentioned on page 23 of War of Intervention in Angola vol. 5, 1987-1992 by Fontanellaz, Cooper & Matos. I'm imagining a fairly simple conversion consisting of a Casspir, a big extendable Adcock antenna and a set of headphones but it would be nice to see it.

 

[Tim_TeaDrinker]

I came across a photo showing a Milan ATGM on a Gecko — does anyone know if units ever field-adapted Milan launchers on Geckos, or was this a parade/one-off thing?
View attachment 777894

Pic of this vehicle from other side.

 

[samuelSA23]

View attachment 786047
Pic of this vehicle from other side.

I’m quite curious do you know if it is in use?

 

[Tim_TeaDrinker]

I’m quite curious do you know if it is in use?

I don't know about this modification with Milan ATGM. But, for sure, Gecko 8x8 ATV is in South African service.

 

[samuelSA23]

I don't know about this modification with Milan ATGM. But, for sure, Gecko 8x8 ATV is in South African service.

I’m trying access the link in the photo to research other projects, however the link doesn’t want to work, do you know where I can access the site?

 

[kaiserbill]

Well, the Gecko is used by the Parabats as a weapons carrier, and the 2006 order for the updated Milan ADT was specifically for the Parabats, so one would imagine this is the case.

 

[Tim_TeaDrinker]

do you know where I can access the site?

No, i don't know anything about site. I have only this picture.

 

[Apophenia]

I’m trying access the link in the photo to research other projects, however the link doesn’t want to work, do you know where I can access the site?

Sign in - Google Accounts

But you have to have an active Google account to gain access.

 

[Graugrun]

Milkor confirmed as winning bidder in SA Army border patrol APC tender​

https://defenceweb.co.za/land/land-...g-bidder-in-sa-army-border-patrol-apc-tender/

 

[PC-Challenge]

Think it is for sale as it is next to the large workshop shed where the other "For Sale" vehicles are displayed. It seldom moves and is not used on the premises for transport work as far as I can see. Maybe contact them and make an offer?!

http://www.n4trucks.co.za/index.php...=category&layout=blog&id=19&Itemid=21&lang=en

There is a picture of this LZN on the UK Historic Military Vehicles Forum, taken while looking for Saracen parts:

https://hmvf.co.uk/topic/12253-saracen-build-up/page/6/

Pages 5 and 6 have the scrapyard pictures of various vehicles, also interesting is that most SA Saracens were Saracen 88 spec of which there was believed to be only a single prototype in the UK

 

[kaiserbill]

The Saracen story is interesting.
There was a programme to update the Saracen in South Africa during the 1980's. (EDIT: 1979 apparently)
There were a large amount of vehicles (280 were on hand originally) available after their replacement by the Ratel, so there was an attempt to make use of these in such roles as Internal security.
I recall that the electrics were overhauled, amongst many other things.
I wonder what the link between Saracen 88 and the South African ones were.

I don't think they found much use for them as they were obsolete in concept and quite cramped anyway compared to the what the local industry was pumping out, so the programme petered out.
All this from memory, so I would have to brush up on that again.

 

[kaiserbill]

Fortuitously, this rather excellent interview has just been released.

It is with Brigadier General Tony Savides, who was involved with the Ratel ICV development from early on. It clears up some oft repeated errors on Ratels development.
Interview starts at 8:15.

He discusses various vehicles looked at, and how the Ratel came into being from earlier concept prototypes.

He mentions at 21:50 that Mercedes Benz wanted to offer a 6x6 vehicle, but they didn't meet the cut-off time.
Any ideas what this vehicle was?

He also corrects the Ratel lineage from 25:50 onwards.
The Springfield Bussing Buffel was a South African built vehicle that was inspired by a vehicle by MAN in West Germany in 1971 called the Studing Objekt. (?) This spelling is probably incorrect as it is me purely trying to spell it off his vocal interview.
Anybody know anything about this vehicle?

He further explains that although the Springfield Bussing Buffel was the design selected among the contenders, it had to be redesigned as it wasn't suitable for what the Army wanted.

Edit: 100 Ratel Log 8x8 vehicles were also ordered, but were not produced in the end, leaving only the 2 prototypes seen earlier in this thread.

View: https://youtu.be/99zSZyPxuW0?si=Iff0YVuma9hoCON5

 

[kaiserbill]

Good news is that the Armour Museum has started Project Reclaim. They have been towing prototypes that were outside for restoration. Phase 1 involved 6 vehicles, with Phase 2 starting next year.
There is a video on their Facebook page which I cannot download unfortunately.

18K views · 288 reactions | Project Reclaim Update: On 18 November 2025, the final two vehicles — the Springbok and the Ratel ATOS — were successfully relocated to their new display positions. A heartfelt thank you to the Museum Workshop team for t

Project Reclaim Update: On 18 November 2025, the final two vehicles — the Springbok and the Ratel ATOS — were successfully relocated to their new display positions. A heartfelt thank you to the...

www.facebook.com

 

[stimpy75]

Some pics i found

 

[Graugrun]

More details emerge on ICP’s new REVA armoured vehicles​

https://defenceweb.co.za/featured/more-details-emerge-on-icps-new-reva-armoured-vehicles/

 

[Graugrun]

Ukraine’s MAC HUB launches production of armoured vehicles in collaboration with Paramount Greece​

https://defenceweb.co.za/land/land-...icles-in-collaboration-with-paramount-greece/

 

[Sea Harrier FRS.1]

I would like move the topic for this forum to the sighting systems from the 90s and 2000s if that's fine.
The name designation is also a simple yet complex thing, the G in GS-XX means it's the gunner's primary sight and C in CS-XX means it's the commander's primary sight

1. First is S60 series of sights, pretty basic but decent the CS60 has a few variants but with only small differences between them.

2. Next we have the S65 sights, just like the S60, good sights but higher levels of zoom

3. Following we have the S72 sights, also called the TIGER sights, these were meant to be mounted in a upgraded T-72M1

4. The S75 series, I don't know if these exist. I was on a call last night with Dewald Venter and he mentioned the GS75/CS75 but he might have been thinking of the S72 sights.

5. Now for a commander anti air sight, used by the Rooikat ZA-35 and Rooikat ZA-HVM prototypes, the AA-CS-300D panoramic day sight, it could elevate to +70 degrees to look into the sky!

6. The gunner sight for the Rooikat ZA-35 and what was first installed on the Rooikat ZA-HVM, you guessed it, the AA-EOT. It had image and FLIR tracking and also had thermal imaging for better searching.

7. Now is the best anti air sight of the 90s (in SA), the ETS 2400 Catchy, specifications are very similar to AA-EOT on ZA-35, due to using the same systems, but with addition of a radar.

Pictures of the sights:

 

[yeetmahboi]

While not pertaining to any secrecy of any kind, this news involves projects discuss here.

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ulysmedia.kz

The BKM Barys is Kazahkstan's name for the Mbombe 8. I grouped the quoted complainteds together below

"As a result of three stages of testing, we identified and documented, for example, design flaws and technical shortcomings in the Barys BKM, such as the imperfection of the entire chassis suspension system. The shock absorbers could not withstand prolonged loads, both when driving over rough and mountainous desert terrain, and when driving on public dirt roads. Even after covering 100 to 200 km, the suspension components failed and needed to be constantly replaced. The RUN FLAT system (a feature on the vehicle's wheel that allows the vehicle to drive on a given wheel with zero tire pressure after a tire blowout or puncture) did not perform its intended function. Thus, after a tire blowout or puncture, the RUN FLAT system would tear off inside the wheel. Due to this design flaw, the chassis, and the suspension in particular, is unable to fully perform its functions. "The levers and Soylen blocks, as well as their attachments to the vehicle body, are designed without regard for the weight of the vehicle and are made of materials that are not load-bearing, which leads to frequent wheel breakage even under normal road conditions, not to mention the difficult transitions that are sure to be encountered during combat training. "And what if, God forbid, war breaks out?! Who will be court-martialed then?" the senior officer continues.

"Even the most basic loading of a 30mm round belt into the breech of the 2A72 cannon is done using improvised means: a crowbar, a pry bar, or an iron pin. Is this really acceptable for a modern vehicle? Due to what we consider to be the crude automated software, there were consistent issues during firing. Smoke grenades would fire spontaneously. The rate of fire didn't match the setting on the control panel. Constant sight adjustments were required, as the sights would drift after each shot, necessitating corrective action. So, a KPI software specialist must be constantly present with the gunner/operator. Would he even go to war with the officers and soldiers if something happened?" lamented active technical service officers.

 

[Sea Harrier FRS.1]

The part about the suspension, loading the 2A72 and the software sounds about right for a South African company that eventually declared bankrupt from the BEE ownership.

 

[alberchico]

While not pertaining to any secrecy of any kind, this news involves projects discuss here.

ÐÑо ÑкÑÑÐ²Ð°ÐµÑ Ð½ÐµÐ´Ð¾ÑÑаÑки пеÑвого казаÑÑÑанÑкого бÑоневика

Ð Ñом, кÑо из дейÑÑвÑÑÑÐ¸Ñ Ð³ÐµÐ½ÐµÑалов и полковников ÐС Ð Ð «Ð²Ð¾Ð´Ð¸Ñ за ноѻ ÑÑководÑÑво ÐинобоÑÐ¾Ð½Ñ Ð¸ Ñленов пÑавиÑелÑÑÑва пÑÑаÑÑÑ ÑкÑÑÑÑ ÑвнÑе недоÑÑаÑки доÑогоÑÑоÑÑей бÑонеÑеÑники...

ulysmedia.kz

The BKM Barys is Kazahkstan's name for the Mbombe 8. I grouped the quoted complainteds together below

So what happens now ? Is Paramount contractually obligated to rectify these shortcomings or is Kazakhstan stuck with a lemon ? Are any other operators reporting issues ? I thought developing world class armored vehicles was the one thing that South Africa's defense industry still excelled at after all these years. What happened ?

 

[Sea Harrier FRS.1]

So what happens now ? Is Paramount contractually obligated to rectify these shortcomings or is Kazakhstan stuck with a lemon ? Are any other operators reporting issues ? I thought developing world class armored vehicles was the one thing that South Africa's defense industry still excelled at after all these years. What happened ?

Pretty much Kazakhstan is stuck with it. It's possible that there were bribes involved but from who to who they would be idk, normally it would be the company bribing but I really can't tell with Paramount, maybe a high up that wanted to get a big bonus for bring in money or a Kazi leader.

But there is no way of fixing problems like that with a vehicle, they might spend more money trying to redesign and fix the Barys 8 that they might as well make or buy a new vehicle from Russia, West or China.

 

[stimpy75]

They also tested the Otokar Arma equipped with a chinese copy of the BMP-3 turret

 

[Waterballoon]

So what happens now ? Is Paramount contractually obligated to rectify these shortcomings or is Kazakhstan stuck with a lemon ? Are any other operators reporting issues ? I thought developing world class armored vehicles was the one thing that South Africa's defense industry still excelled at after all these years. What happened ?

Pretty much Kazakhstan is stuck with it. It's possible that there were bribes involved but from who to who they would be idk, normally it would be the company bribing but I really can't tell with Paramount, maybe a high up that wanted to get a big bonus for bring in money or a Kazi leader.

But there is no way of fixing problems like that with a vehicle, they might spend more money trying to redesign and fix the Barys 8 that they might as well make or buy a new vehicle from Russia, West or China.

They are producing the ARMA in house already. It's a done deal.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HusV0R83Z6Y

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8pNVbRzPBE

 

[Sea Harrier FRS.1]

So I asked Dewald Venter about this Eland and he says that has never seen it before, I do want to highlight that it seems to have the CS-75 in a elevatable pole.

 

[Graugrun]

I would like move the topic for this forum to the sighting systems from the 90s and 2000s if that's fine.
The name designation is also a simple yet complex thing, the G in GS-XX means it's the gunner's primary sight and C in CS-XX means it's the commander's primary sight

1. First is S60 series of sights, pretty basic but decent the CS60 has a few variants but with only small differences between them.

2. Next we have the S65 sights, just like the S60, good sights but higher levels of zoom

3. Following we have the S72 sights, also called the TIGER sights, these were meant to be mounted in a upgraded T-72M1

4. The S75 series, I don't know if these exist. I was on a call last night with Dewald Venter and he mentioned the GS75/CS75 but he might have been thinking of the S72 sights.

5. Now for a commander anti air sight, used by the Rooikat ZA-35 and Rooikat ZA-HVM prototypes, the AA-CS-300D panoramic day sight, it could elevate to +70 degrees to look into the sky!

6. The gunner sight for the Rooikat ZA-35 and what was first installed on the Rooikat ZA-HVM, you guessed it, the AA-EOT. It had image and FLIR tracking and also had thermal imaging for better searching.

7. Now is the best anti air sight of the 90s (in SA), the ETS 2400 Catchy, specifications are very similar to AA-EOT on ZA-35, due to using the same systems, but with addition of a radar.

Pictures of the sights:

Excellent post Sea Harrier FRS.1..!

I scanned and posted quite a few of the brochures, as well as a Janes article by Helmoed R. Hietmann - you may find some answers in them Posts: #1052, #1069. #1189 and #1190
No mention of the S75 series, however the Janes article does talk about some of the future developments and growth. Also the 'Tiger' brochure that I posted first in post #1052, I think I collected from a later DEXSA show than those posted later in #1189 - check the specs, it may be what you refer to as the S75 (just not called such in the brochure..)?

 

[Sea Harrier FRS.1]

Excellent post Sea Harrier FRS.1..!

I scanned and posted quite a few of the brochures, as well as a Janes article by Helmoed R. Hietmann - you may find some answers in them Posts: #1052, #1069. #1189 and #1190
No mention of the S75 series, however the Janes article does talk about some of the future developments and growth. Also the 'Tiger' brochure that I posted first in post #1052, I think I collected from a later DEXSA show than those posted later in #1189 - check the specs, it may be what you refer to as the S75 (just not called such in the brochure..)?

The S75 series is used by the Olifant Mk.2, I had an interview with Dewald Venter a few weeks ago and he mentioned it, I did a technical discussion forum for War Thunder on the TTD and when I was doing the finishing touches to the sights, I asked Gemini if the S75 was used in the Olifant and it confirmed it but gave no source but 75 was the next step after the S72.

 

[Graugrun]

The S75 series is used by the Olifant Mk.2, I had an interview with Dewald Venter a few weeks ago and he mentioned it, I did a technical discussion forum for War Thunder on the TTD and when I was doing the finishing touches to the sights, I asked Gemini if the S75 was used in the Olifant and it confirmed it but gave no source but 75 was the next step after the S72.

Ah, okay - yes that makes sense regards the S75 - I've actually fired the main gun of the Mk.2 at a range target. I have a few photos, that include some of the inside gunner's sights, unfortunately I cannot share them.

It would be good to get the S75 brochure from somewhere.

I had some very good contacts at the School of Armour in Bloem (that explains the above) - not anymore though, pity I could have got all of that info for us (nothing secret of course). I may know Dewald personally, however I would need to see a photo of him to know - It's actually been many years since I moved in the 'right' circles..

Do you perhaps know where the 35mm SPAAG is today - Youngsfield or School of Armour?