Did Lord Fisher have high-functioning autism?

[Geoffrey de Vere]

I know that expression of this opinion might be in poor taste, but I want to know if anyone else here shares the same hunch. Reading his biographies and other accounts of his conduct and personality on Wikipedia and other places make me be unable to help but notice the signs.

His defiant and stubborn passion for innovating, designing warships, and promoting his strategic philosophy really do scream 'autistic'.
Unfortunately, I could not find any definitive scientific or psychological studies of his character and personality – I can't claim Lord Fisher's autism as a definite fact, because there's been no official diagnosis.

However, I really just want to know if other people here have inferred likewise about this Admiral of the Fleet.

 

[TsrJoe]

Irrelevant really, the term as currently defined wasn't 'invented' back then, or had any use in polite company, nor commonly used pre 1980 ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

Personally i feel there is certainly a case where we can not (and should not ?) try to apply contemporary societal norms to historical personages from generations past

 

[LVisingr]

I know that expression of this opinion might be in poor taste, but I want to know if anyone else here shares the same hunch. Reading his biographies and other accounts of his conduct and personality on Wikipedia and other places make me be unable to help but notice the signs.

His defiant and stubborn passion for innovating, designing warships, and promoting his strategic philosophy really do scream 'autistic'.
Unfortunately, I could not find any definitive scientific or psychological studies of his character and personality – I can't claim Lord Fisher's autism as a definite fact, because there's been no official diagnosis.

However, I really just want to know if other people here have inferred likewise about this Admiral of the Fleet.

Being functional autist (with soft Asperger syndrome) myself, I agree.

 

[Yellow Palace]

It is generally agreed in mental health circles that it is almost impossible to diagnose historical figures, and generally inadvisable to try.

 

[Yellow Palace]

Irrelevant really, the term as currently defined wasn't 'invented' back then, or had any use in polite company, nor it seems commonly used pre 1980 ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

That doesn't mean that autistic people didn't exist before 1980, any more than PTSD – coincidentally, both were formally described as diagnoses for the first time that year in the DSM-III – only that it's not a term Fisher and his contemporaries wouldn't have recognised.

Which of course means they certainly weren't looking for it, making any attempt at diagnosis largely futile. There are any number of historical figures who might have had any kind of neurological or psychological conditions, but the available evidence very rarely allows a conclusion beyond 'might'.

 

[publiusr]

Being functional autist (with soft Asperger syndrome) myself, I agree.

My folks always did say I was "touched"

I just want to know why it is that my car likes to wait until I pump a full tank to quit right at the station. "Touched" all right.

Autistic people create.
The well behaved, non-neurodivergent get used:

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrp76Wi4ZrY&pp=0gcJCU0KAYcqIYzv


What is sad is how creative people who follow rules are destroyed. I never stole, never caroused. Still broke.

 

[F-2]

It’s an interesting thought but I don’t really think so. He was described as very socially aware and charming. It’s a spectrum but some level of social difficulties would be needed for an autism diagnosis. I think it would be very difficult to rise in a military hierarchy to that level in that time frame with autism unless he was a prince or something. He does have a bit of Victorian aristocratic stoicism that might sometimes give the modern reader that sort of impression.

You really can’t retrospectively diagnose people. Sometimes it’s really pronounced though like paul dirac or ludwig wittgenstein that historians kinda do it anyway.

 

[pathology_doc]

He was described as very socially aware and charming. It’s a spectrum but some level of social difficulties would be needed for an autism diagnosis.

Another favoured candidate of mine in the same historical span is Douglas Haig.

 

[Geoffrey de Vere]

Another favoured candidate of mine in the same historical span is Douglas Haig.

Didn't expect him to be thought of this way.

 

[Volkodav]

There is a greater understanding of neurodivergence these days, and I'm not talking about the delusional fiction emanating from a certain former heroin addict at the moment.

The key example that comes to mind is the large number of gifted people, including quite a few USN Nuclear school graduates, who were classified as gifted at school, completed higher degrees and had great careers, who were then diagnosed as autistic in later life, usually after a child or grandchild was diagnosed.

There is now an understanding that there is a significant overlap between types of neurodivergence and an argument that giftedness is also a type of neurodivergence. In fact, it is now understood that giftedness has been misdiagnosed as ADHD and Autism in some cases, particularly in children from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, where the schools/teachers are incapable of accommodating the different needs.

In addition, there is also what is known as Twice Exceptional or 2E, which is people who are gifted and autistic, gifted and ADHD or all three. A good analogy for this is a Ferrari that is misfiring on a couple of cylinders, versus and Toyota Camry that is running normally. The Ferrari still completely outclasses the Camry, but because of its maintenance issues, it's perceived as inferior and too hard to deal with. Instead of accommodating and supporting the Ferrari, it's left in the garage and the Camry is chosen.

Through this filter, yes, I can see that Fisher, like many exceptional and quirky historical figures, may have been neurodivergent.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I feel its far away from the topic of this forum to be retro-diagnosing historical figures with specific neurodivergent conditions.

 

[Arjen]

I would love to see the list of psychological types / conditions a hundred years from now.
I would expect it to be as radically different from our current one as the list from the time when Haig and Fisher were alive.
It might give me the giggles and frighten me senseless at the same time.

You really can’t retrospectively diagnose people.

This ^

 

[publiusr]

I could easily see that line of inquiry being used to slime folks with more interest in engineering. We saw enough of that in Jurassic Park.

 

[DWG]

I feel its far away from the topic of this forum to be retro-diagnosing historical figures with specific neurodivergent conditions.

Particularly not now disparaged interpretations - the 'high functioning' label is no longer favoured within the neurodivergent community because the reality is a lot of people dismissed as 'low functioning' turn out to be just as intelligent.

 

[Michel Van]

I can't claim Lord Fisher's autism as a definite fact, because there's been no official diagnosis.

As functional autist my self, there must quirks and habits that indicate Lord Fisher had or not had it

- Social disfunction aka Lonely wolf ? - No he was married and children
(also his interaction with his crews, who respect him deeply, is atypical for Autism)
- Highly cognitive capabilities? - Yes but that indicate, also he was Genius with High IQ
- Excentric behaviour ? - are any story of such with Lord Fisher if yes could be indication of Autism.
(however seems his Lordship was a prankster, but again no indication for autism)

So far i see in wiki bio is Lord Fisher a highly discipline genius man, who recognised the sign of time and reformed the RN

 

[pathology_doc]

the 'high functioning' label is no longer favoured within the neurodivergent community because the reality is a lot of people dismissed as 'low functioning' turn out to be just as intelligent.

The term was not intended to indicate whether someone is or is not intelligent; it was to indicate whether their neurodivergence does or does not let them function unassisted in society on a day to day basis.

 

[dannydale]

This thread about autism in history reminds me of the similar and very hotly debated topic of LGBTQs in history. It's always perpetually 'were they or weren't they?' even in obvious cases one way or another.

It’s an interesting thought but I don’t really think so. He was described as very socially aware and charming.

Case in point: I'm autistic and I was able to hold down a sales position at a hardware store for 8 years. The joke Bausmang always had when I came back from leave was 'Dey All Axed fo YOU!'

In fact I met my husband at that hardware store.

 

[publiusr]

This thread about autism in history reminds me of the similar and very hotly debated topic of LGBTQs in history. It's always perpetually 'were they or weren't they?'

I wonder if Kurosawa knew of the Seven Against Thebes.

Shakespeare is even more contentious…Rylance and Jacobi don’t even think he wrote much of anything.

 

[357Mag]

There is a greater understanding of neurodivergence these days, and I'm not talking about the delusional fiction emanating from a certain former heroin addict at the moment.

The key example that comes to mind is the large number of gifted people, including quite a few USN Nuclear school graduates, who were classified as gifted at school, completed higher degrees and had great careers, who were then diagnosed as autistic in later life, usually after a child or grandchild was diagnosed.

There is now an understanding that there is a significant overlap between types of neurodivergence and an argument that giftedness is also a type of neurodivergence. In fact, it is now understood that giftedness has been misdiagnosed as ADHD and Autism in some cases, particularly in children from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, where the schools/teachers are incapable of accommodating the different needs.

In addition, there is also what is known as Twice Exceptional or 2E, which is people who are gifted and autistic, gifted and ADHD or all three. A good analogy for this is a Ferrari that is misfiring on a couple of cylinders, versus and Toyota Camry that is running normally. The Ferrari still completely outclasses the Camry, but because of its maintenance issues, it's perceived as inferior and too hard to deal with. Instead of accommodating and supporting the Ferrari, it's left in the garage and the Camry is chosen.

Through this filter, yes, I can see that Fisher, like many exceptional and quirky historical figures, may have been neurodivergent.

Volkodav -

Howdy !

As a friendly reminder….
It is not uncommon for a young male to be diagnosed with Autism that is somewhere on the “ spectrum “…. and also be diagnosed with “ Attention Deficit “ disorder.

Not all AD is automatically coupled to HD.

Let’s remember…. “ attention “ is like currency…. you “ Pay “ it.
And like currency…. when you run out, you can no longer “ Pay “.

Fire up some movies where Pierce Brosnan portrays James Bond.
During his briefings, “ Q “ was oft heard to say …..
“ Now.. pay ATTENTION, double O seven ! “

With regards,
357Mag

 

[martinbayer]

It is generally agreed in mental health circles that it is almost impossible to diagnose historical figures, and generally inadvisable to try.

But hey, it's fun! As a post WWII born German, I would *for sure* love to see Hitlers postmortem psychological disorder diagnosis - keep in mind, this particular online community is *NOT* a mental health drum circle, so be ready for some hard scientific/physical/engineering analyses...