Lockheed Martin AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile (JATM)

FighterJock said:
Also interesting that the UK is included in the export for the AIM-260A considering that we have the ramjet powered Meteor as the missile of choice, we have the Meteor already lined up for the F-35Bs. So I take it that the AIM-260 will be partnered with the Meteor?
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Sorry, that's my unclear writing - these are the nations cleared for purchase theoretically, but they haven't actually ordered any. It's more that if they wanted to, they could.

I don't think the UK will bite - Meteor is getting an MLU soonish, and plans are already underway for a newer BVRAAM, developed again with France.

https://www.janes.com/osint-insight...rtners-to-decide-on-meteor-mlu-by-end-of-2024
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/britain-and-france-to-develop-new-air-to-air-missile/
 
My thoughts as well Reuben James in regards to the UK getting the AIM-260A though it would be interesting to see if we did get some to augment the Meteor MLU and the new BVRAAM that is being developed jointly by the UK and France.
 
FighterJock said:
Also interesting that the UK is included in the export for the AIM-260A considering that we have the ramjet powered Meteor as the missile of choice, we have the Meteor already lined up for the F-35Bs. So I take it that the AIM-260 will be partnered with the Meteor?
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The 260 outperforms the meteor.
 
Reuben James said:
Interesting that the nations who are cleared for the AIM-120D are also cleared for the AIM-260A. Off the top of my head, that'd be Germany, Norway, Poland, the UK, Australia and Canada.
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It's not immediate or assured, just 'expected' if that makes sense. Like how being an existing season ticket holder lets you in early to buy season tickets for next year. There are always mitigating circumstances more than season tickets too, as I mentioned with indo-pacific allies being priority and the administration taking into account regional military balance, etc.

A country in question would still need to request the missile. State, DSCA, Congress all have to approve. It's not a done deal of countries operating AIM-120D-3 eventually having AIM-260A.
 
quellish said:
The land of make-believe, like most of this thread.

There are public records which state a range that is not 300km. Why not take a few minutes to find them?

Or just ask yourself why is named the AIM-260
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Or just enlighten us without the cryptic tease/self engrandizement.
 
That is because the AIM-260 is a lot newer and will have much better electronics and rocket motors than the Meteor's Hull down. Personally I would not like to compare the two missiles as they have different needs plus the Meteor was designed in a different era.
 
NMaude said:
It makes me wonder if the Meteor has a bigger no-escape zone than the AIM-260A.
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Probably one of things that we won't know for a long time, at least not with any precision. MBDA (biased, of course), claim the largest no-escape-zone in its class for the Meteor, and kinematic performance up to six times that of comparable missiles, but without knowledge of the JTAM, it's hard to compare.

Perhaps MLU Meteor might be comparable in range to the JTAM?
 
FighterJock said:
That is because the AIM-260 is a lot newer and will have much better electronics and rocket motors than the Meteor's Hull down. Personally I would not like to compare the two missiles as they have different needs plus the Meteor was designed in a different era.
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Absolutely, but the claims people make about the meteor massively outperform the Aim-120 come from an era when it was compared to the Aim-120B and C.
 
I suspect “outperform” is a relative term anyway. I could see both missiles having advantages in different range bands and target performance levels. The SRM is probably going to excel at close range and maybe medium range with a second pulse, but perhaps the air breather does better at long range. Then again, the second pulse might also give superior end game performance at the end of a significantly longer flight time, because it can just zoom off from transonic to an “off the rail” level of speed after a long coast with no turns. Far too many variables for OSINT to have a truly informed opinion I would guess.
 
Josh_TN said:
I suspect “outperform” is a relative term anyway. I could see both missiles having advantages in different range bands and target performance levels. The SRM is probably going to excel at close range and maybe medium range with a second pulse, but perhaps the air breather does better at long range. Then again, the second pulse might also give superior end game performance at the end of a significantly longer flight time, because it can just zoom off from transonic to an “off the rail” level of speed after a long coast with no turns. Far too many variables for OSINT to have a truly informed opinion I would guess.
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@Josh_TN I think you’ve nailed it. Out my ass here, but i would think the US wanted an expanded NEZ for shorter range engagements but clearly wanted to be able to loft JATM à la AMRAAM with the battery and end game energy to make those longer range engagements meaningfully more lethal.

Then you add in hypotheticals like better seeking and fuzing from a multimodal seeker and smart, directionally steerable warheads.
 
FighterJock said:
Also interesting that the UK is included in the export for the AIM-260A considering that we have the ramjet powered Meteor as the missile of choice, we have the Meteor already lined up for the F-35Bs. So I take it that the AIM-260 will be partnered with the Meteor?
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I think it's more "The US trusts the UK to keep the secrets of AIM-260A, should the UK feel like buying any."

Plus it'll be integrated on USMC F-35Bs, so it's just simpler to leave the data in the -B computers.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I think it's more "The US trusts the UK to keep the secrets of AIM-260A, should the UK feel like buying any."

Plus it'll be integrated on USMC F-35Bs, so it's just simpler to leave the data in the -B computers.
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Also, in case of global non-nuclear war, it would give the US a theoretical ability to load Meteors or the UK to load AIM-260s.
 
FighterJock said:
Also interesting that the UK is included in the export for the AIM-260A considering that we have the ramjet powered Meteor as the missile of choice, we have the Meteor already lined up for the F-35Bs. So I take it that the AIM-260 will be partnered with the Meteor?
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I think F-35 can probably carry 6 AIM-260 but not 6 Meteor.
 
US would prefer it's customers to also buy US weapons for it's aircraft.

This 'option' for the UK is an invitation to ditch it's own domestic industry for imports.

Cheap to offer since JTAM will intigrate to F-35B anyway.

Considering UK financial projections, a 'deal' may persuade Elite figures with some kind of purchase with credit.
 
Reuben James said:
Classic, actually the MoD's catchphrase at this point.
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As an aside all OBR and IMF predictions have been wrong for decades.
Don't not even take with salt!

But projected spending increases now 'front load' for tax rises in four years, setting the next government post 2029 for a potential financial crisis of epic proportions.

Essentially this Labour Government have done a 'Tory' manoeuvre and have engaged in scorched earth tactics.

All of which means GCAP and every item of Defence will be under enormous pressure to just cut, cut, cut.
 
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We desperetly need the GCAP/Tempest zen so I would think that Labour would be rather foolish to cut it right now. They would not survive the next election if they did.
 
zen said:
US would prefer it's customers to also buy US weapons for it's aircraft.

This 'option' for the UK is an invitation to ditch it's own domestic industry for imports.

Cheap to offer since JTAM will intigrate to F-35B anyway.
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It's nothing new, US attempts to get the UK to buy any US missile rather than build Meteor in the first place practically reached the level of desperation.
 
Reuben James said:
I don't think the UK will bite - Meteor is getting an MLU soonish, and plans are already underway for a newer BVRAAM, developed again with France.
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Tbh, given how UK politics tend to work out, as well as the way how US successfully bullies UK with weapon integration - I think they most probably will.

Like not even talking about decade-long delay to integrate original meteor(whole to weapons per jet!) and almost comparable delay with SPEAR-3. Note, that both delays are now 7 years in advance - both are still subject to further exciting updates through political and budget cycles.

Whole story how UK buys F-35A just to share B-61s, rather than developing a 1000lb nuke, is an utter national embarrassment. It's just that integration won't happen.
 
Ainen said:
Whole story how UK buys F-35A just to share B-61s, rather than developing a 1000lb nuke, is an utter national embarrassment. It's just that integration won't happen.
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The alternative is to spin up a nuclear infrastructure, to design and manufacture the bomb, AND come up with a new stealth fighter.
 
We lost the capability to design and build nuclear weapons when the last WE,177 was delivered and then decommissioned back in 1998 Sferrin and it is a capability we no longer possess sadly, which is why we need the B-61-12 as a short term measure.
 
FighterJock said:
We lost the capability to design and build nuclear weapons when the last WE,177 was delivered and then decommissioned back in 1998 Sferrin and it is a capability we no longer possess sadly, which is why we need the B-61-12 as a short term measure.
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The only reason we have the B61 to offer is because we still had them laying around. We couldn't design a new nuclear warhead today if we had a gun to our head.
 
Getting a bit OT here.
Maybe my fault but a clarification on the UK export potential was needed.

Suffice it say something like the big bore ASRAAM MBDA offered for FCAS/GCAP is more likely. Which could rival JTAM.

Or if Americans really care about interoperability and allies.....a potential for synergy. On a non-Sparrow non-AMRAAM platform.

But considering the history of ASRAAM itself......
 
zen said:
Getting a bit OT here.
Maybe my fault but a clarification on the UK export potential was needed.

Suffice it say something like the big bore ASRAAM MBDA offered for FCAS/GCAP is more likely. Which could rival JTAM.

Or if Americans really care about interoperability and allies.....a potential for synergy. On a non-Sparrow non-AMRAAM platform.

But considering the history of ASRAAM itself......
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The US Air Force included weapons as part of its NGAD portfolio of capabilities since quite a while ago and likely since the begining of its various efforts to develop and field next generation platforms, weapons and capabilities. It is executing on those plans. JATM is one of the initial capabilities entering service but there are others in the works as well. Since NGAD is not an international/partner program, it is likely that some if not most of those weapons will be developed by the US DOD and made available to others as needed rather than through joint bi-lateral or multi-national programs. As evident from the US-Australia partnership on several next gen programs like Next Gen Jammer, LRASM, AIM-260 and HACM. Because the Americans care about allies and interoperability, it is making those weapons available to allies who are serious about investing and partnering on these capabilities.
 
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But here is the 6 million dollar question bring_it_on would the US really export top end military equipment to its closest allies? True the export of the Growler to Australia and the partnership with the Next Gen Jammer may be a step in the right direction.
 
FighterJock said:
But here is the 6 million dollar question bring_it_on would the US really export top end military equipment to its closest allies? True the export of the Growler to Australia and the partnership with the Next Gen Jammer may be a step in the right direction.
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Australia is partnered on the NGJ now and has funded both development and procurement efforts including the expanded capability being introduced on the mid band pods built by Raytheon. Australia is also a partner with the US on the SCiFIRE hypersonic effort and the USAF's offshoot the hypersonic attack cruise missile and in fact will not only have testing at Australian ranges but also be first to integrate the weapon the Super Hornet. You see a similar partnership on land based fires efforts. A lot if not most of those efforts originated as US only programs but were opened up to allies. JATM is shaping up to something similar. So the blueprint on how similar NGAD technologies can be shared is already there and it need not follow the path of joint development progams like the multi nation JSF.
 
The United Kingdom has always had special access to U.S. technology, and that relationship has been expanded to Australia.

That said, I suspect few others will have anything like that level of access.
 
No, right now Australia is much more of a partner than the UK for future kinetic weapon systems (like JATM, the ostensible topic here) bring it on enumerated. This doesn’t even touch the submerged component, but it also doesn’t ignore the substantial EW work between the UK and US.

Does this continue? This most recent JATM announcement says yes.

Does this expand? Maybe? Do some CCAs or even NGAD or F/A-XX fly with RAAF livery at some point? That’s a more interesting question….
 
Ainen said:
Whole story how UK buys F-35A just to share B-61s, rather than developing a 1000lb nuke, is an utter national embarrassment. It's just that integration won't happen.
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Compared to the costs of spinning up the national nuclear weapons industry?
 
Scott Kenny said:
Compared to the costs of spinning up the national nuclear weapons industry?
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They're supposed to make their warheads.
I know this isn't as true as brits try to say, but ultimately bomb is, literally, a warhead.
 

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