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[Arjen]

if Owens turns out to be right,

Short of finding out somebody is posting consistently from PRC territory while claiming to reside somewhere else, how would we know?

I was on the receiving end of "On all China-related issues, you've been acting as America's lackey and parrot".

 

[TsrJoe]

I guess Its pretty much irrelevant as long as it doesn't denegrade the group as a whole and should 'balance out' ?
I'm very sure there are some on here card carrying members of the CCP. as well as many others who have allegiance to one or another nation state, flag or whatever, or have signed up to whatever OSA., NDA. or equivalents, all of which either directly, or not, skew our postings. None of us are immune to self censorship or letting our own biases come through.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Paul.
if I understand him right, Owens is pointing out a suspected mole of the CCP operating in your forum. I have no way of knowing whether he is right or not, but I must say I also had doubts about @EmoBirb's insistent stance.

Now, if Owens turns out to be right, whether you would choose to allow such a CCP mole to continue operating on your forum, it is obviously your personal choice.

There is no evidence Emobirb is anything but what they claim to be, a 20 year old engineering student in Germany. If she is guilty of anything its being very obviously 'Gen Z' in attitude. Many young people don't seem to see much moral distance between Western democracies and autocracy and indulge in false equivalencies and whatabouttery.

Now Chinese people can study at German universities, and I can't remotely ascertain people's ethnicities, genders or nationalities, but even discussing this seems rather McCarthyite.

I've been accused of being an obvious US Government agent myself, which is clearly nonsense, and shows how this kind of thinking leads to paranoia and conspiracy.

 

[EmoBirb]

Also russian, with repeated mentions of that reddit sub which has an ambiguous status (supposed to give a russian POV of the war - see by yourself how hypocritical it actually is )

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/hot/

You see the difference is, that I tend to leave my personal politics out of this forum (or try my best to do so). So while on reddit I have no issue whatsoever to proclaim what my political opinions are (you'd blush at what my actual opinions are), I for one understand to seperate the forum, which is a place for technical, apolitical discussion and speculation, from other stuff online.

It amuses me though that you seemingly can't make such distinctions, I hope you left an upvote at least.

 

[EmoBirb]

EmoBirb, your profile alleges that you are a 20-year-old from Germany, yet I and others have noticed that you often post about Communist China, and those posts, without exception, conform to the Chinese Communist Party line, especially about the current dictator. Maybe it's all the books I've read about KGB practices since I was a kid, but I find your evident primary interest to be curious, for a young German.

I don't really understand this one, now if someone would accuse me of working for the FSB, yeah that would be more reasonable. But I truly fail to see any connection to "party line" or Chinese state policy as a whole. My focus is Russian military developments, mostly aviation focused. I interact with Chinese topics barely and mostly speculation based (and usually more so on the SDF), so may I kindly ask for evidence of me being pro CCP? Feel free to send me that stuff via DM, so we don't trash this thread further.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I don't really understand this one, now if someone would accuse me of working for the FSB, yeah that would be more reasonable. But I truly fail to see any connection to "party line" or Chinese state policy as a whole. My focus is Russian military developments, mostly aviation focused. I interact with Chinese topics barely and mostly speculation based (and usually more so on the SDF), so may I kindly ask for evidence of me being pro CCP? Feel free to send me that stuff via DM, so we don't trash this thread further.

Agreed, the whole line of argument is nonsensical.

 

[CJGibson]

"Lacon lights a cigarette, smokes a moment, building up to something. Smiley waits him out. The room has become very still.

LACON (CONT’D)
'He said there’s a mole. Right at the top of the Circus. And that he’s been there for years.'

Smiley absorbs this. The moment is suddenly broken by a few stray notes from the piano. The two jump slightly and turn to where Jackie sits at the keyboard, smiling triumphantly."

I could have saved a lot of time and inserted a photo of Anthony Bate as Lacon and Sir Alec Guiness as Smiley but I don't want to get a Dan Ban.

Anyway, my question for this thread is: Who amongst us will be SPF's Smiley?

Chris

 

[galgot]

"Lacon lights a cigarette, smokes a moment, building up to something. Smiley waits him out. The room has become very still.

LACON (CONT’D)
'He said there’s a mole. Right at the top of the Circus. And that he’s been there for years.'

Smiley absorbs this. The moment is suddenly broken by a few stray notes from the piano. The two jump slightly and turn to where Jackie sits at the keyboard, smiling triumphantly."

I could have saved a lot of time and inserted a photo of Anthony Bate as Lacon and Sir Alec Guiness as Smiley but I don't want to get a Dan Ban.

Anyway, my question for this thread is: Who amongst us will be SPF's Smiley?

Chris

No idea, but @EmoBirb is certainly not Karla anyway...
Some are taking all this far too seriously, both the "mods can't like a post because it's political" and "X or Y is a blood thirsty red china agent", it's getting completely absurd. Still, fun read...
Thanks for the Smiley ref @CJGibson, was one of my fav show.

 

[Dilandu]

Some are taking all this far too seriously, both the "mods can't like a post because it's political" and "X or Y is a blood thirty red china agent", it's getting completely absurd. Still fun read...

I rarely read this thread, basically came there only out of curiosity "why so much activity so suddenly there?", read the last three pages... and frankly, can't comprehend what the hell is going on. Not sure I even want to, actually.

 

[Reddington777]

@Owens Z

I've seen a lot of Emobirbs posts because he/she follows pretty much the same threads as I do.

Don't think I've seen them say anything that stretches reality to benefit the Chinese. At most, I've seen them repeat stuff others far more China-friendly people have said on this forum or stuff from sinodefenseforum / downwash from the Chinese internet. I would argue the people that constantly make comments to downplay, poke fun and denigrate any country are far more egregious both in their behavior and their overall effect to the conversation and they are not one of them. There are also plenty of people in the Chinese equipment threads with far more favorable views of both Chinese equipment and China as a whole and yet... they haven't caught any flak from you?

I've seen what shills look like. I've floated around on reddit for 7 years before I left thanks to my favorite defense threads being taken over by them. Actual shills and agents do not care for nuance, technical discussion, or discussing useful information. Shills want to pollute the discussion with their intentionally crafted comments and views to push an agenda, to obfuscate the truth and to shut down anything that goes against the agenda they try to push. Even the worst offenders here that occasionally write these mocking and discussion discouraging comments every now and then are far from exhibiting shill / paid agent like behavior.

I can guarantee you there are agents here from any number of different countries, but as long as they aren't trying to take over the forum and pollute discussions, then what's the problem here? No one is sharing classified info and no one should be sharing any. This ain't a war thunder forum.

This is a large part of the reason I came to this forum (vs reddit / F-16 / sinodefense / Key aero) after lurking for a year or two. Shill or not - people here either choose not to or are prevented from using insults, mocking, down/upvoting to deliberately silence and crush others expressing doubt or opinions that don't agree with an agenda. And as long as they/we keep to the rules here and the "agents" ability to derail things are kept in check, I don't have a problem with how things are right now.

 

[EmoBirb]

I think it's in the forums interest to take a closer look at endless discussions of "possibly-might-be-could-be-will-be" purchases and associated types of fan-fiction-esque posts.

I see little value in the endless pollution of threads with, to name a couple examples, Egypt maybe buying the J-10 for two decades now, Indonesia possibly buying this and this and this (possibly doing heavy lifting here) or more recently the fictional idea of Ukraine joining in on the Gripen production.

Such topics lead to endless discussions, are inherently linked to politics, bring in various off topic posts about comparable or competing offers and often rely on very questionable articles and rumors which often turn out to be flat out false reporting.

Just something I noticed over the recent...1...2...? months and how the development cycle of these discussions always remains the same and generally ends up with plenty of clean up. So this is essentially the idea of preventive measures and just regulate such types of discussions more tightly from the get go.

(to be clear, I view genuine, well known, publicized and professionally discussed development and acquisition programs as something seperate from this more rumor based stuff. Australian Frigate or Canadian Submarine acquisition programs come to mind as such examples of proper discussion based in reality and realism).

 

[Dilandu]

I think it's in the forums interest to take a closer look at endless discussions of "possibly-might-be-could-be-will-be" purchases and associated types of fan-fiction-esque posts.

With all respect, but I strongly disagree. Such discussion are major part of forum attraction. Peoples who loves military history are inevitably asking "what if" at some point - and such threads often present an interesting ideas, new data, well though-out alternatives.

 

[helmutkohl]

I think it's in the forums interest to take a closer look at endless discussions of "possibly-might-be-could-be-will-be" purchases and associated types of fan-fiction-esque posts.

I see little value in the endless pollution of threads with, to name a couple examples, Egypt maybe buying the J-10 for two decades now, Indonesia possibly buying this and this and this (possibly doing heavy lifting here) or more recently the fictional idea of Ukraine joining in on the Gripen production.

Such topics lead to endless discussions, are inherently linked to politics, bring in various off topic posts about comparable or competing offers and often rely on very questionable articles and rumors which often turn out to be flat out false reporting.

Just something I noticed over the recent...1...2...? months and how the development cycle of these discussions always remains the same and generally ends up with plenty of clean up. So this is essentially the idea of preventive measures and just regulate such types of discussions more tightly from the get go.

(to be clear, I view genuine, well known, publicized and professionally discussed development and acquisition programs as something seperate from this more rumor based stuff. Australian Frigate or Canadian Submarine acquisition programs come to mind as such examples of proper discussion based in reality and realism).

A lot of high level talks about aircraft acquisition actually don't go through in the end, but we don't know until it gets to that point as the process takes years. Yes I'm skeptical of all these announcements of say, the Indonesian air force buying something, and I have a feeling it won't go through. But at least for the Rafale, it actually went through and its doing its test flights in France as we speak.

As for Ukraine and Gripen, various officials met, there's many news articles about it, so it's a valid discussion to have.

I understand that you have certain biases against Ukraine, France, among others, which have lead to you to reacting strongly and going deeper into off topic politics. In which case, it would probably be less stressful for you to limit your participation in such threads/topics and focus on topics you enjoy more.

 

[EmoBirb]

With all respect, but I strongly disagree. Such discussion are major part of forum attraction. Peoples who loves military history are inevitably asking "what if" at some point - and such threads often present an interesting ideas, new data, well though-out alternatives.

I can't talk for all people but I, as a younger person who isn't usually into "forum" type stuff, came to this place because it offered:

> comprehensive summaries of development history and technical data on obscure, once classified or just very interesting programs.

> a sizeable pool of the members being formerly part of the aerospace industry, general arms industry or retired service members.

> quality discussion, analysis and guesswork of ongoing programs.

This is what brought me and kept me here, on top of me viewing this forum as largely unbiased. As I said, I don't mind the discussion of possibilities and options, or credible rumors if they are in the realm of reality. Egypt in this day and age picking up J-10s isn't realistic, Ukraine having a Gripen assembly line within the next decade or two isn't realistic. Alternatively you have things as I mentioned with Indonesia, where there is such a landslide of rumors, memorandi of understanding, enquiries and what not that it's simply not worthwhile discussing until something genuine materializes. Especially when many of these discussions have their foundation built on reports that are held up by thin strings of plenty of rumors and guesswork. I personally think this pollutes threads, yeah.

But the main issue is that these types of discussions inevitably do a headfirst dive into domestic politics and foreign politics, words like corruption fall, people bring up dozens of unrelated systems which merits and pitfalls then get discussed at length and ultimately everyone is annoyed, especially the mods and then the clean up starts and the thread is virtually back to zero and nothing of value was added or ultimately lost.

 

[EmoBirb]

but we don't know until it gets to that point as the process takes years.

What's the issue with just waiting until something materializes though? Rumors come and go and I think discussing them on end is appropriate for Twitter, Reddit, TWZ etc.

Surely, associated threads would see longer periods of dormancy, but is that really so bad?

 

[Dilandu]

But the main issue is that these types of discussions inevitably do a headfirst dive into domestic politics and foreign politics, words like corruption fall, people bring up dozens of unrelated systems which merits and pitfalls then get discussed at length and ultimately everyone is annoyed, especially the mods and then the clean up starts and the thread is virtually back to zero and nothing of value was added or ultimately lost.

With all respect, but, for example, this tread run for 15 pages (more than a month) and neither did denigrate into domestic politics, nor made everyone annoyed. So it's not "inevitable". There are a lot more AH threads that never venture into politics, firmly staying in the realm of technology. So again, I disagree with you strongly.

 

[AndersJ]

Whenever you get messages and alerts in this forum, you can always see who they are from. That is unless they are about your posts being deleted by some anonymous moderator. In that case you do see the message, but all you see is that it was done by "?". I think that's kind of lame and a moderator shouldn't hide behind anonymity in my opinion. In other forums I post in, you can see who does the moderation, and moderators are also upfront and able to motivate their decisions. I think it would be a huge improvement if such a policy was introduced here as well.

 

[Archibald]

I understand that you have certain biases against Ukraine, France, among others, which have lead to you to reacting strongly and going deeper into off topic politics. In which case, it would probably be less stressful for you to limit your participation in such threads/topics and focus on topics you enjoy more.

Bingo.

There are good reasons why I asked to be thread-banned from a few threads.

I readily encourage others people to do the same. It's a bit like game addicts asking to be barred from casinos. Including the security guards being specifically warned that some specific people shall not enter the casino. LMAO.

 

[joshjosh]

With all due respect, I find it ironic that someone who posts 5 times a day, on average, is asking everyone else to post less.

 

[Archibald]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vRfvoZ0_BI

 

[helmutkohl]

Whenever you get messages and alerts in this forum, you can always see who they are from. That is unless they are about your posts being deleted by some anonymous moderator. In that case you do see the message, but all you see is that it was done by "?". I think that's kind of lame and a moderator shouldn't hide behind anonymity in my opinion. In other forums I post in, you can see who does the moderation, and moderators are also upfront and able to motivate their decisions. I think it would be a huge improvement if such a policy was introduced here as well.

Moderators are not hiding under anonymity when threads are moved/deleted/edited. Its the way how the XenForo software operates and limitations on our side.
However when it comes to infractions, you should be able to see which moderator or admin distributed it.

If you want to see the software being changed, you make that suggestion to XenForo.

 

[Antonio]

I can't talk for all people but I, as a younger person who isn't usually into "forum" type stuff, came to this place because it offered:

> comprehensive summaries of development history and technical data on obscure, once classified or just very interesting programs.

> a sizeable pool of the members being formerly part of the aerospace industry, general arms industry or retired service members.

> quality discussion, analysis and guesswork of ongoing programs.

I'm mostly here for the same reasons.

About endless political discussions, highly improbable what if/alternative History, war diaries or personal/subjective speculation going nowhere I just try to ignore it. That's my recipe to enjoy the forum while Archibald's method is the most radical version

 

[AndersJ]

Moderators are not hiding under anonymity when threads are moved/deleted/edited. Its the way how the XenForo software operates and limitations on our side.
However when it comes to infractions, you should be able to see which moderator or admin distributed it.

If you want to see the software being changed, you make that suggestion to XenForo.

"you should be able to see which moderator or admin distributed it"

No I don't. For all other alerts and messages I do see who they are from, but not the one I got just now telling me my posts have been deleted which is just tagged as from "?".

 

[helmutkohl]

"you should be able to see which moderator or admin distributed it"

No I don't. For all other alerts and messages I do see who they are from, but not the one I got just now telling me my posts have been deleted which is just tagged as from "?".

re-read the part in bold.

Moderators are not hiding under anonymity when threads are moved/deleted/edited. Its the way how the XenForo software operates and limitations on our side.
However when it comes to infractions, you should be able to see which moderator or admin distributed it.

If you want to see the software being changed, you make that suggestion to XenForo.

 

[EmoBirb]

With all due respect, I find it ironic that someone who posts 5 times a day, on average, is asking everyone else to post less.

It's not about posting less, it's about trying to refrain from a specific style of discussion. That was the point to which others also replied afterwards.

 

[AndersJ]

re-read the part in bold.

Moderators are not hiding under anonymity when threads are moved/deleted/edited. Its the way how the XenForo software operates and limitations on our side.
However when it comes to infractions, you should be able to see which moderator or admin distributed it.

If you want to see the software being changed, you make that suggestion to XenForo.

Ah, so in this forum posting something that gets you a message like the attached one is technically not an infraction then? I mean, when I read that message it certainly reads like an infraction, because somebody took the time to write it and admonish me but technically it's not?

Then I have another suggestion: To get around this problem with the XenForo software which seems to be hampering the moderators ability to be visibility when deleting posts, then in future, when moderators delete post and send messages, they sign them? So for example, if it was you who sent the attached message, then you would simply write "helmutkohl" on the end?

 

[helmutkohl]

For that one in particular, another member (not you) was going off about Ukraine and Russia, so the chain was deleted. This member has a history of reacting certain ways when it comes to Ukraine-Russia.

what you received was a notice, not an infraction.

 

[AndersJ]

Fair enough. But I still think it would be a step in the right direction if, in the future, when forum members get messages of the type I just did, that we know who it's from. So I would appreciate if you and the other moderators would keep that in mind going forward.

 

[Antonio]

Fair enough. But I still think it would be a step in the right direction if, in the future, when forum members get messages of the type I just did, that we know who it's from. So I would appreciate if you and the other moderators would keep that in mind going forward.

Ok for me

 

[GTX]

Fair enough. But I still think it would be a step in the right direction if, in the future, when forum members get messages of the type I just did, that we know who it's from. So I would appreciate if you and the other moderators would keep that in mind going forward.

If a message generated from a moderation action such as moving or deleting a post, I refer you again to my previous response:

As has already been explained here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/why-was-my-posting-deleted.40267/page-3 (see Reply #104), moderators do not have the ability to give long winded or super detailed explanations. More so, when multiple posts are deleted as a group, it is even more impractical.

This includes arguably including who did the moderation as it will eat into the space we have to play with.

 

[helmutkohl]

on the subject of multiple posts being deleted..

we often get messages or posts along the lines of "why was my post deleted? why didn't you do anything to that other person?"

to give an example of how we work.. we can take the FCAS thread for example. there are times it's devolved to basically people going off topic and posting anti-Typhoon/anti-Rafale/anti-France/anti-Germany stuff.
for people who keep on pushing it after warnings, we give infractions and thread bans. As regular members, you can only see your OWN infraction/ban. You cannot see the other person's infraction or ban. That does not mean we did not take action on the other person.
In the FCAS thread, we've taken actions on both the anti-France and anti-Germany camps.

More importantly, just because some one else breaks a rule or goes off topic, is not an excuse to go ahead and do it yourself.
Focus on your own activities rather than others.

 

[AndersJ]

If a message generated from a moderation action such as moving or deleting a post, I refer you again to my previous response:


This includes arguably including who did the moderation as it will eat into the space we have to play with.

So let me get this straight: You can take the time to write a multi-word message informing someone the nature of their transgression, but adding "GTX" on the end is too taxing? Really?

on the subject of multiple posts being deleted..

we often get messages or posts along the lines of "why was my post deleted? why didn't you do anything to that other person?"

to give an example of how we work.. we can take the FCAS thread for example. there are times it's devolved to basically people going off topic and posting anti-Typhoon/anti-Rafale/anti-France/anti-Germany stuff.
for people who keep on pushing it after warnings, we give infractions and thread bans. As regular members, you can only see your OWN infraction/ban. You cannot see the other person's infraction or ban. That does not mean we did not take action on the other person.
In the FCAS thread, we've taken actions on both the anti-France and anti-Germany camps.

More importantly, just because some one else breaks a rule or goes off topic, is not an excuse to go ahead and do it yourself.
Focus on your own activities rather than others.

I see no problem with this. OTOH what does it have to do with signing your messages? If you now know that what we will see when you send out a message is that it's from "?", is it really so hard for you to be civil and add your name so we know who wrote it?

 

[helmutkohl]

my post that you are quoting wasn't a response to you. Note that I did not quote you.

 

[GTX]

So let me get this straight: You can take the time to write a multi-word message informing someone the nature of their transgression, but adding "GTX" on the end is too taxing? Really?

You do know that I am not the only moderator don't you? More importantly though, people want to know which thread was deleted, which post, why and now by whom. My point was that we do not have a huge amount of space to play with when doing this.

 

[AndersJ]

my post that you are quoting wasn't a response to you. Note that I did not quote you.

No, but you did "like" the post GTX did where he explained why signing a message was so arduous. But then I must have misunderstood you? So you are OK with the proposal to sign anonymous moderator messages then?

You do know that I am not the only moderator don't you? More importantly though, people want to know which thread was deleted, which post, why and now by whom. My point was that we do not have a huge amount of space to play with when doing this.

Now you are moving moving the goalposts: I have not asked for any expanded explanations. Just that moderators sign their messages. And I do know there are other moderators, but is that really an argument for not signing messages? It must be the opposite surely?

 

[GTX]

Now you are moving moving the goalposts: I have not asked for any expanded explanations. Just that moderators sign their messages. And I do know there are other moderators, but is that really an argument for not signing messages? It must be the opposite surely?

This isn't just about your wants. My point was that over the years we have had people want all of the things that I listed. We simply can't give people everything they want. We have to make compromises due to the restrictions we have.

 

[GTX]

No, but you did "like" the post GTX did where he explained why signing a message was so arduous. But then I must have misunderstood you? So you are OK with the proposal to sign anonymous moderator messages then?

I will let helmutkohl speak for himself but may I suggest that he may have been liking my post because he, as a fellow moderator, understands the restrictions I am trying to explain to you.

 

[helmutkohl]

I will let helmutkohl speak for himself but may I suggest that he may have been liking my post because he, as a fellow moderator, understands the restrictions I am trying to explain to you.

yup

there are multiple mods here, and we don't always agree with each other on some stuff just like how members don't either..
but we are a team and our actions are to maintain rules and balance in the forums.

 

[EmoBirb]

There are a couple mods who "sign" their stuff. But ultimately what does it really do? Surely, one knows who made the decision at hand, but is that truly important? In my experience, you either bring the topic to the feedback thread, where most moderators will present their side/opinion. Alternatively you can message a moderator and either get lucky immediately or that moderator can tell you who did it, if they're so inclined.

Ultimately, in my personal experience, when you ask politely you will get a polite answer in return, usually.

I don't necessarily think signing off decisions is something the forum urgently needs, although it's nice to have.

 

[helmutkohl]

There are a couple mods who "sign" their stuff. But ultimately what does it really do? Surely, one knows who made the decision at hand, but is that truly important? In my experience, you either bring the topic to the feedback thread, where most moderators will present their side/opinion. Alternatively you can message a moderator and either get lucky immediately or that moderator can tell you who did it, if they're so inclined.

Ultimately, in my personal experience, when you ask politely you will get a polite answer in return, usually.

I don't necessarily think signing off decisions is something the forum urgently needs, although it's nice to have.

yup, I'll respond to you. Maybe the answer won't be what one would like, but I'll respond.. at least if its something I did.