KAI T-50 and FA-50 Golden Eagle Thread

helmutkohl said:
alert5.com

Poland Leases AIM-9P Missiles from South Korea for FA-50 Fighter Jets - Alert 5

Poland has completed a lease agreement with South Korea for AIM-9P Sidewinder short-range air-to-air missiles to equip its FA-50GF fighter aircraft, Polish Deputy Defense Minister Paweł Bejda announced Jun. 25. Boevaya mashina, CC BY-SA 3.0 DE, via Wikimedia Commons The agreement enables...
alert5.com
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AIM-9P? Wow! Those are old, why not get something a bit more recent and up to date such as the AIM-9L/M?
 
NMaude said:
AIM-9P? Wow! Those are old, why not get something a bit more recent and up to date such as the AIM-9L/M?
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i'm guessing the 9P is something they have excess stock of, and is more or less a placeholder until Poland begins receiving the Block 20 FA-50, which will finally allow them use of the AIM-9X. I believe the block 20 already entered assembly.
 
www.jkiees.org

J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng.: Design and Implementation of an X-Band Low-Profile Active Electronically Scanned Array for Airborne Radar

The results of the fabrication of active electronically scanned array (AESA) antennas with low-profile, low-weight, wide-scan, and thermal stability characteristics for aircraft-mounted radar are described. To reduce the size and weight of the antenna, a transmit–receive block is constructed in...
www.jkiees.org www.jkiees.org

Paper on South Korean AESA, possibly related to FA-50 or KF-21?
 

Big radar power for small aircraft​

Raytheon’s new PhantomStrike® radar brings powerful sensing to more of the fleet​

www.rtx.com

Big radar power for small aircraft

Those images, captured during recent flight tests, were years in the making for Larry Martin, his team, and the new radar they'd developed. And the results, he said, were worth every ounce of effort.
www.rtx.com www.rtx.com
 
Link
Curious data point - FA-50PL, for all their problems, come at just 36.6 million apiece for a fully capable "western" light fighter.

Half gripen E(which is more of a medium now, but either way).
 
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Apparently, TNI-AU is thinking to upgrade T-50is as LCA standard (FA-50), while Lift duties will be using M346 as a Hawk 109 replacement. In this scenario FA-50 going to be replacement for the Hawk 209 LCAs.

Currently Rafale looks like that is going to replace the Hawk 209/109 both in Pekanbaru and Pontianak AB. However looking on TNI-AU activities like visiting the Leonardo facility for M346 and further discussion between KAI with DI, the indication so far shown potential M346 as LIFT/FLIT and FA-50 (mostly from T-50i upgrade) as LCA.

It is back again to marketing lobby war between Leonardo vs KAI on LIFT.
But I would prefer to see KAI win due to the KF-21.
 
I wonder what's the point of splitting LIFT and LCA.
LIFTs are already a narrow point optimization, far too expensive to be just trainers.
 
Ainen said:
I wonder what's the point of splitting LIFT and LCA.
LIFTs are already a narrow point optimization, far too expensive to be just trainers.
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agreed. While there's some divergence in the performance capabilities between the M-346 and Golden Eagle, I don't think it's large enough to justify having both.

But who knows, Poland is doing just that and adding another type seems to fall in line with what the Indonesian government wants
 
Whopper said:
A possible look at the single-seater FA-50 from LIMA 2025 last year.

Source: https://www.facebook.com/edliewDefe...d-at-lima2025-was-a-single-/1120621880089712/
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I wonder which countries would be interested, if any. This is essentially a Gripen-equivalent conversion of the FA-50, yet it does not deliver comparable performance, nor does it retain the LIFT capability of the existing combat capable FA-50 design that makes it attractive to small nations. It provides only a negligible increase in range, yet takes away so much of what makes it an attractive platform.
 
The ESR-500A's FTB appears to be in its final stages. It appears they are now in the process of building a prototype radar with government funding and then moving on to the avionics integration stage. They say they will be replacing UMS's GaN SSPA with a GaN SSPA from Korea's RFHIC
 

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Life of Tyo said:
It's interesting Polish Air Force was give some information on the PhantomStrike Radar.

View attachment 792054
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8 KW average power is incredible and kinda unbelieveable for air cooled radar of one used in small fighter like Fa-50. 40% Duty cycle too, such high duty cycle kinda imply Velocity search mode where no ranging is done or FM ranging instead of typical pulse delay ranging.

I made my element counts which kinda show 549 elements, and frequency estimate of 10.23 GHz based on the beamwidth which about 4.2 degrees. Typical air cooling may provide some 3 KW, this even with 90% PAE for the TRM.. still limit the Average power to 6.4 KW and peak 15.9 KW for the duty cycle.
 
snne said:
I wonder which countries would be interested, if any. This is essentially a Gripen-equivalent conversion of the FA-50, yet it does not deliver comparable performance, nor does it retain the LIFT capability of the existing combat capable FA-50 design that makes it attractive to small nations. It provides only a negligible increase in range, yet takes away so much of what makes it an attractive platform.
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The single-seat conversion was a request from clients. They liked the aircraft but were interested in an even cheaper option with the second seat and avionics removed and replaced with a fuel tank. (The seat and avionics can be reinstalled if the operator changes their mind.) It's an affordable supersonic aircraft that can be delivered quickly and do air-policing duties with lower maintenance costs.
 
helmutkohl said:
defencesecurityasia.com

South Korea Breaks Free from AMRAAM Bottleneck: KAI Eyes MBDA Meteor and MICA Integration for FA-50 in Major BVR Power Shift - Defence Security Asia

South Korea’s Korea Aerospace Industries may integrate MBDA Meteor and MICA missiles on the FA-50 Fighting Eagle as AIM-120 AMRAAM export approvals stall. The shift could transform the FA-50 into a credible beyond-visual-range light fighter for Malaysia, Poland, and Indo-Pacific operators...
defencesecurityasia.com defencesecurityasia.com
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That’s nice I guess, if you've got something that can cue the missiles for the FA-50, but if it is going to be your first line aircraft; this might make other Western-oriented options that can cue their own BVRAAMs more attractive (say, earlier armed T-7A delivery for foreign customers or the Turks integrate the Gökdogan to the Hürjet).

Additionally, the FA-50 could probably carry only 4 AAMs (since it is an armed LIFT) and the Meteor would be on the pricey side for most countries that would field such a jet as their primary combat aircraft, whereas an AMRAAM or equivalent would be a better fit.

BTW, haven’t the Koreans recently begun actively developing an indigenous WVRAAM?
 
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snne said:
That’s nice I guess, if you've got something that can cue the missiles for the FA-50, but if it is going to be your first line aircraft; this might make other Western-oriented options that can cue their own BVRAAMs more attractive (say, earlier armed T-7A delivery for foreign customers or the Turks integrate the Gökdogan to the Hürjet).

Additionally, the FA-50 could probably carry only 4 AAMs (since it is an armed LIFT) and the Meteor would be on the pricey side for most countries that would field such a jet as their primary combat aircraft, whereas an AMRAAM or equivalent would be a better fit.

BTW, haven’t the Koreans recently begun actively developing an indigenous WVRAAM?
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there was recent news about it but I'm guessing they are not very far..

MICA is a smart move because a number of Rafale operators or potential operators (Indonesia, Iraq, Malaysia, etc) also operate FA-50s, so they could share Meteor and MICA.

I know there's been no issues with AIM-9s being exported for it (other than the Ps being sent), but IRIS-T integration should be another consideration.
 
snne said:
That’s nice I guess, if you've got something that can cue the missiles for the FA-50, but if it is going to be your first line aircraft; this might make other Western-oriented options that can cue their own BVRAAMs more attractive (say, earlier armed T-7A delivery for foreign customers or the Turks integrate the Gökdogan to the Hürjet).

Additionally, the FA-50 could probably carry only 4 AAMs (since it is an armed LIFT) and the Meteor would be on the pricey side for most countries that would field such a jet as their primary combat aircraft, whereas an AMRAAM or equivalent would be a better fit.

BTW, haven’t the Koreans recently begun actively developing an indigenous WVRAAM?
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I think Meteor is attractive for any underdog/lighter fighter aircraft, for reasons all too apparent since Ukraine.
You don't really survive up high v superior opponent.

Phantom strike is a bit on the shorter side to serve unequal altitude engagement for Meteor properly, but shouldn't be by too much.
 
Ainen said:
Phantom strike is a bit on the shorter side to serve unequal altitude engagement for Meteor properly, but shouldn't be by too much.
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No system in the real world performs as well as advertised during an all-out war: a bunch of factors come into play and affect your FCR's performance; like EW, terrain, atmospheric conditions, etc.

Ainen said:
I think Meteor is attractive for any underdog/lighter fighter aircraft, for reasons all too apparent since Ukraine.
You don't really survive up high v superior opponent.
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You're thinking too much in a short-term war scenario, whereas modern wars have almost always extended beyond the initial exchanges. Even if you are the underdog and are desperate, you don’t send your precious aircraft and pilot on a suicide mission against a more capable foe head-on without any strategy whatsoever.

Phantom Strike itself is barely sufficient for the AMRAAM-C due to its limitations (not much gain in range compared to plain old APG-68, which is subpar by today's standards). What makes you think it can extract the full potential of the Meteor?

Is the Meteor attractive for almost anyone? Sure, to give an example you can LOAL and it can loiter in the threat zone for a short while even if it misses its target to increase your chances of survival. But would the underdog prefer a dozen or two more lesser-ranged but good-enough BVRAAMs instead of a boutique number of longer-ranged sticks for the same cost? Absolutely 100%.
 
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snne said:
No system in the real world performs as well as advertised during an all-out war: a bunch of factors come into play and affect your FCR's performance; like EW, terrain, atmospheric conditions, etc.
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PS is quite likely the single most advanced US fighter radar to date (also their second GaN one). Not the most powerful, sure, but more likely than not it'll deliver.
snne said:
Phantom Strike itself is barely sufficient for the AMRAAM-C due to its limitations (not much gain in range compared to plain old APG-68, which is subpar by today's standards). What makes you think it can extract the full potential of the Meteor?
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AMRAAM, if launched from high altitude, will be sufficient to hit a cooperative target head-on from well over 150km. AMRAAM D, which, as far as I understand, is not the missile in question here.
Same AMRAAM, but launched from the deck against a normie cruise altitude target, will at most manage ~1/4-1/5 that. Even lower in Lo v Lo scenario.
Against aware targets, which react at least to RWR, and especially to MAWS warning, you may cut these numbers further /2 - and at the lower end, at low altitude against a cold aspect aware target at low altitude, I doubt you're really crossing 8-9 mile shot.

By comparison, Meteor will serve all those scenarios far closer to the upper tracking limit. Meteor is, in fact, an almost absolute "underdog" weapon. Almost, because change seeker ffs.
 
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Ainen said:
Same AMRAAM, but launched from the deck against a normie cruise altitude target, will at most manage ~1/4-1/5 that. Even lower in Lo v Lo scenario.
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According to @Scott Kenny a ground launched AAM typically has ~1/3 its air-launched range so a ground launched AIM-7M (Maximum aerodynamic range is ~62 miles when launched at high-altitude) has a range of ~20-21 miles.
 
NMaude said:
According to @Scott Kenny a ground launched AAM typically has ~1/3 its air-launched range so a ground launched AIM-7M (Maximum aerodynamic range is ~62 miles when launched at high-altitude) has a range of ~20-21 miles.
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This is a sort of reference number, but against stretched modern MRAAMs its way less than that.
Much more powerful AMRAAM-ER is barely 1/4 of model AMRAAM D launch(40 km for AMRAAM-ER). For AIM-120D itself(NASAMS), which from GL shouldn't be really different from C-7/8, differenece may be as bad as 7 times(~25 v 160++ km)
 
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In regards to the Meteor for the Golden Eagle..
like one of the older articles I've posted states.. I never saw it as an attempt to maximize the BVR reach of the plane
but rather, to provide options for customers who want an alternative to American missiles.
 
160 nm (instrumented range i assume) is huge for such a tiny radar. Such power is also quite high, especially for an air cooled radar.

If one can get that with GaN, i shudder to think what apg85 can do. Probably detect typical fighter sized contacts at over 250 nm.
 

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