Interceptors for Ireland

GTX said:
Even Gripen is potential overkill for the perceived mission/requirement. F/T-50 maybe or even simpler?
Click to expand...
Needs missiles with a large warhead to address bomber- or hijacked airliner-sized airframes. Which means radar-guided BVRAAMs, and engaging close enough that the rocket motor adds to the boom.

Plus, the North Atlantic weather means you need a good radar.

I think the M346 can handle AMRAAMs (No it cannot, yet), the FA50 can. I don't believe that the T-7 can.

Think the ROCAF would be willing to sell any of their old F-CK-1s?
 
Scott Kenny said:
Needs missiles with a large warhead to address bomber- or hijacked airliner-sized airframes. Which means radar-guided BVRAAMs, and engaging close enough that the rocket motor adds to the boom.
Click to expand...
Sidewinder will do it just fine, this is a very overstretched requirement.
 
ItalianAFDFail said:
That Is true but with what Irish Need depends on the envelope they can fly in, if they Need longer range Eurofighter could be beneficial, however a Gripen with droptanks and maybe tanker support can also do the job, It boils down to cost a lot more for them than other nations i would argue
Click to expand...

Tankers are not only going to be an additional expenditure, but add an expensive training need for both the tanker AND fighter pilots. Tankers are also not going to get utilized so much, but will have to be on standby depending on how an investigation/intercept flight goes.

The IAC is going to have their hands full standing up a fighter capability - tankers are a step too far.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Disagree, a Sidewinder will not do catastrophic damage to the wing if it impacts a podded engine.
Click to expand...
Launch another one.
Big planes sometimes survive big non-contact explosions, but it happens with larger warheads as well.

Justifying amraam by requiring some factual air combat capability and/or better all weather intercept is one thing.

Justifying it to better shoot down airliners is bad pitch - it isn't a good goal to push, and they aren't that much better at it.

If you absolutely need a kill and nothing works, make a gun pass.
 
Last edited:
Ainen said:
Launch another one.
Big planes sometimes survive big non-contact explosions, but it happens with larger warheads as well.

Justifying amraam by requiring some factual air combat capability and/or better all weather intercept is one thing.

Justifying it to better shoot down airliners is bad pitch - it isn't a good goal to push, and they aren't that much better at it.

If you absolutely need a kill and nothing works, make a gun pass.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of that crazy event, in 1972.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Moroccan_coup_attempt
 
Ainen said:
Launch another one.
Big planes sometimes survive big non-contact explosions, but it happens with larger warheads as well.

Justifying amraam by requiring some factual air combat capability and/or better all weather intercept is one thing.
Click to expand...
You mean the ability to shoot down a bomber? Or airliner-derived MPA armed with (insert weapons here)?
 
Scott Kenny said:
You mean the ability to shoot down a bomber? Or airliner-derived MPA armed with (insert weapons here)?
Click to expand...
Ireland asks at best for an affordable solution to airspace control, and even pushing money for that (against more necessary stuff) is not exactly guaranteed.

You're asking for impossible things. In peacetime there's no difference, sidewinder will shoot down even b-21 no problem.
In wartime conditions, Ireland can't achieve that, and doesn't need that.
 
Last edited:
starviking said:
Tankers are not only going to be an additional expenditure, but add an expensive training need for both the tanker AND fighter pilots. Tankers are also not going to get utilized so much, but will have to be on standby depending on how an investigation/intercept flight goes.

The IAC is going to have their hands full standing up a fighter capability - tankers are a step too far.
Click to expand...
So maybe at this point a twin engine plane Is the only cost effective idea
 
For the love of....

EDIT: From the article;
Although the Defence Forces is training junior ATCs, including a group currently studying with a private company in Spain, there will not be enough senior Air Corps instructors to train them on specific Irish systems, sources said.

“Things are on a knife edge. The mood is one of total despair,” said a source.

Several official reports have previously warned a full-time air traffic control function in Baldonnel was not sustainable due to ATCs departing for the higher-paid private sector.

As recently as 2021, a joint Department of Defence and Defence Forces report said urgent measures were needed to prevent personnel from leaving, including retention payments such as those offered to military pilots.

However, these recommendations were not acted on by Government.

Attracted by the higher salaries, many Air Corps ATCs have moved to Weston Airport, the private Dublin facility co-owned by billionaire John Collision.

Weston is moving to 24-hour flight operations due to the stationing of Coast Guard rescue helicopters there.

The cessation of 24/7 operations at Baldonnel, which was first reported by the Journal website, will significantly impact several agencies, including the Garda and HSE.
Click to expand...
 
Eventually they'll have to choose planes for the defense of Ireland, at the end it'll be a matter of time,i think this and i don't see this policy lasting a lot, they'll have to hire new personnell soon, still i think either Gripen or maybe even FA/50 or MB 346FA are the likely options if they want It to be cheaper,but i still wouldnt discount Gripen or even very used Eurofighters and or Rafales (dispite them being the less likely option due to operating cost alone)
 
Hood said:
I don't think I'll wait up for the announcement of an order for 6th Gen fighters just yet.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/...may-soon-cease-flying-due-to-manpower-crisis/
Click to expand...
This isn’t the first time there’s been ATC shortages for Baldonnel, the civilian counterparts get 50k plus more and easier conditions so it’s always a battle, what you seem to miss is that Harris has already taken proposals to cabinet to improve retention on the issue, too early to tell the impact though.
https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of...-for-air-corps-air-traffic-control-personnel/
 
sparky42 said:
This isn’t the first time there’s been ATC shortages for Baldonnel, the civilian counterparts get 50k plus more and easier conditions so it’s always a battle, what you seem to miss is that Harris has already taken proposals to cabinet to improve retention on the issue, too early to tell the impact though.
https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of...-for-air-corps-air-traffic-control-personnel/
Click to expand...
Earlier proposals to equalize ATC pay seem to have been rejected by Cabinet.
 
IMHO they should buy F/A-50. Outside India / China, it must be the cheapest supersonic fighter on hand, I mean new airframe.
The "usual suspects"
-F/A-50
-Second-hand F-16
-Gripen
 
1635yankee said:
According to https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.ZS Ireland spends about 1% of its GDP on defense, on a GDP of about $610,000,000,000 (https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/ireland/factsheets/#government), so about $6,000,000,000 per year. A squadron of Gripens probably costs around $40,000,000/year to operate, with a unit cost of about $85,000,000.
Click to expand...
We don’t spend 1% on defence, haven’t since the Crash in 08, we spend about .3%, or 1.3ish billion euro, planned to rise to about 2 billion by 2028 (not unless we start ordering things soon), with a review then about going up to about 3 billion (2022 values).
 
I thought that the UK was bad for defence spending, but that is truly shocking sparky42.
 
FighterJock said:
I thought that the UK was bad for defence spending, but that is truly shocking sparky42.
Click to expand...
There are many factors that contribute to it, from historic reasons and economies, to modern politics to our outsized GDP (for example the spend is higher than pre crash, but GDP has increased so much it means the spend in percentage terms is lower), to just practical constraints now that there’s even consideration on spending more.
 
sparky42 said:
Even using GNI it’s still less than .5%
Click to expand...
Now that is completely unacceptable. ~2% seems to be the reasonable minimum for a country to spend, and that's with a strong ally giving assistance on the top end. Japan had been holding to 1% under Article 9 but has had to increase above that due to the threat environment.

Going it your own seems to be floating around 5%
 
Scott Kenny said:
Now that is completely unacceptable. ~2% seems to be the reasonable minimum for a country to spend, and that's with a strong ally giving assistance on the top end. Japan had been holding to 1% under Article 9 but has had to increase above that due to the threat environment.

Going it your own seems to be floating around 5%
Click to expand...
Last time the spend was anything close to 2% was during the Troubles, the issue being of course the Irish economy was so small that it still amounted to "Feck all" in terms of actual budget (think circa 500 million pounds in the 80s for example at a 1.5-2% spend) with the lions share going to the Army for ATCP work, then you hit the post Cold War/GFA period and defence spend craters.
 
sparky42 said:
Last time the spend was anything close to 2% was during the Troubles, the issue being of course the Irish economy was so small that it still amounted to "Feck all" in terms of actual budget (think circa 500 million pounds in the 80s for example at a 1.5-2% spend) with the lions share going to the Army for ATCP work, then you hit the post Cold War/GFA period and defence spend craters.
Click to expand...
Understood, but still unacceptable in terms of the things a country is supposed to do.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Understood, but still unacceptable in terms of the things a country is supposed to do.
Click to expand...
What is exactly is Ireland “supposed to do?” UN peacekeeping has fallen out of vogue, so what is the point of wasting 2% of GDP? The KGB might have had a role in funding and arming the antagonists in “The Troubles,” but aside from that, there was no great historical Warsaw Pact or Russian threat to Ireland. It’s hard to even imagine a scenario where Irish participation in expeditionary warfare is expected? If anything, history teaches us that an inordinate number of Irish died fighting for the British Empire, so there is no rational basis for aggressive militarism.
 
TinWing said:
What is exactly is Ireland “supposed to do?” UN peacekeeping has fallen out of vogue, so what is the point of wasting 2% of GDP? The KGB might have had a role in funding and arming the antagonists in “The Troubles,” but aside from that, there was no great historical Warsaw Pact or Russian threat to Ireland. It’s hard to even imagine a scenario where Irish participation in expeditionary warfare is expected? If anything, history teaches us that an inordinate number of Irish died fighting for the British Empire, so there is no rational basis for aggressive militarism.
Click to expand...
Where does expeditionary warfare come into basic "homeland" defence capabilities and investment?

As for "aggressive militarism", again the suggestion is being able to perform the most basic tasks nations regularly do, like being able to assert control of its waters from those that might have ill intent, or being able to secure airspace without relying on the UK, or you know being able to evacuate citizens from dangerous areas, or being able to handle threats to the State like during the Troubles.

None of these things are "aggressive militarism", they are basic functions of defence of nation states, just look at the other neutral or former neutral nations of Europe, none of them equate "neutrality" to the bastard version Ireland has, hell successive governments never planned it to be this way either.
 
Was just reading that South Africa has 20+ low-hour Gripens grounded due to budget constraints... I wonder how many $$$ it would take to convince them to sell say 8-9 Gripens to Ireland?
 
H_K said:
Was just reading that South Africa has 20+ low-hour Gripens grounded due to budget constraints... I wonder how many $$$ it would take to convince them to sell say 8-9 Gripens to Ireland?
Click to expand...
Given the issues the South Africa Air Force has, not sure if it's just a question of buying them, when was the last time they flew all of them, what state are they in? What repair/recertification work would need to be done? And again putting the horse before the cart, plenty of things need doing before purchasing fighters.
 
TinWing said:
What is exactly is Ireland “supposed to do?”
Click to expand...
Provide a Navy and Air Force (and Coast Guard/fisheries patrol) able to keep non-Irish from "pissing on the lawn" (entering the Irish ADIZ and coastal waters).

Have enough fighting power on hand to at least make someone work for it, instead of loading up an ocean-going ferry with a tank platoon and taking over.

Any country needs to be able to enforce their territorial claims. If you cannot enforce those, you're not a country.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Provide a Navy and Air Force (and Coast Guard/fisheries patrol) able to keep non-Irish from "pissing on the lawn" (entering the Irish ADIZ and coastal waters).

Have enough fighting power on hand to at least make someone work for it, instead of loading up an ocean-going ferry with a tank platoon and taking over.

Any country needs to be able to enforce their territorial claims. If you cannot enforce those, you're not a country.
Click to expand...

To paraphrase what you wrote, your analogy of a dog marking its territory is quite an apt metaphor to the sort primitive thinking in much of Europe at the moment. Ireland really doesn’t have any enemies. There is nobody inclined to violate their airspace, or more realistically, illegally fish in their waters, as they’re part of EU and fisheries are held in common. Realistically, migrants aren’t going to navigate in open boats all the way from North Africa to Ireland. So in the end, there’s no great need for defense expenditures, aside from animalistic marking of territory, and there’s plenty of that going on in European capitals at the moment.
 
TinWing said:
To paraphrase what you wrote, your analogy of a dog marking its territory is quite an apt metaphor to the sort primitive thinking in much of Europe at the moment. Ireland really doesn’t have any enemies. There is nobody inclined to violate their airspace, or more realistically, illegally fish in their waters, as they’re part of EU and fisheries are held in common. Realistically, migrants aren’t going to navigate in open boats all the way from North Africa to Ireland. So in the end, there’s no great need for defense expenditures, aside from animalistic marking of territory, and there’s plenty of that going on in European capitals at the moment.
Click to expand...
You mean apart from the routine Russian Air force patrols flying through Irish controlled airspace without engage with ATC, or the Russians deciding to hold war games in the Irish EEZ right before the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, or the repeated examples Russian spy ships loitering over sensitive undersea connections including the couple of gas supply routes that keep the lights on in the Republic, or their "dark fleet" transitting off the West Coast, to name just a few examples? That's not even counting the number of times USN/RAF/French Air Force/Norwegian Air Force have found the need to deploy MPA's off the Irish West Coast in the last few years, I'm sure they are just doing it for free entertainment…?

Add in the outsized Russian Embassy with their long term plans to expand it (larger than their UK one for example), I'm sure that's utterly benign as well? I mean of course Russia needs more staff in the Republic than it does in some of the other P5 nations? Makes total sense, particularly as the Russian Ambassador has been issuing threats to the state since 2022.

And yes even at the most basic, there is plenty of illegal fishing going on, whether that's Irish fishing, or other EU boats, or non EU boats, its a fairly regular issue, not sure where you imagined it isn't?

Not too mention having enough MPA's/helicopters to support rescue operations, helicopters to support ATCP like firefighting or Medical support, or emergency response, etc.

I will never understand the demands by some that somehow Ireland must be utterly incapable of asserting control over its EEZ, again, not even Dev at his most isolationist wanted that.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom