Loire-Nieuport designations

[Stargazer]

Following the discussion of Nieuport vs. Loire-Nieuport designations in another topic, I'm starting this new thread to clearly distinguish the Loire and Loire-Nieuport production.

The list is probably very incomplete but it's a start.


LOIRE

11 Three-seat mail transport (1935, 2 built).
20 Colonial aircraft project powered by two 400 hp Hispano-Suiza.
30 Three-seat reconnaissance aircraft with three Salmson 9Ab engines (1932, one built).
301 Experimental three-seat test-bed for an armored turret, modified from Loire 30 (1934).
40 Single-seat lightweight fighter project with 300 hp Gnome & Rhône Titan II engine.
41 Single-seat lightweight fighter project with 500 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Mc engine.
42 Single-seat lightweight fighter project with 420 hp Gnome-Rhone 9 Asb Jupiter VII engine.
43 High gull-wing all-metal single-seat fighter prototype (1932, one built).
44 Single-seat lightweight fighter project with Hispano-Suiza engine in pusher position.
45 Single-seat fighter prototype (1933, one built).
46 High wing monoplane fighter derived from Loire 45, powered by Hispano-Suiza or Gnome & Rhone engine (1934, 61 built).
50 Small three-seat training and liaison amphibian with pusher Salmson 9Ab engine (1931, one built).
50 bis Same aircraft reengined with Hispano-Suiza 9 Qd.
501 Production version of Loire 50 bis as liaison type for Aéronavale with one Hispano-Suiza 9Qdr (1935, 6 built).
502 Projected variant with Lorraine Algol engine.
51 Projected variant of Loire 501.
60 Four-seat liaison flying boat with three Renault 4Pb engines (1932, one built).
601 Former Loire 60 reengined with just one Gnome & Rhône 9Adx engine (1933).
603 Same aircraft with a tractor Salmson engine, later used as a flying test-bed for the Loire 70.
70 Maritime patrol and recce flying boat with three Gnome & Rhône K.9 engines, including one in pusher position (1933, 8 built).
701 First Loire 70 re-engined with Hispano-Suiza engines.
102 "Bretagne" large transatlantic transport prototype, a competitor of the LeO H-47 (1936, one built).
130 Catapult-launched pusher patrol flying boat (1934, 124 built, including 111 for the Aéronavale and 12 for the Armée de l'air).
130.C Batch of five aircraft with reinforced structure for operation in the colonies.
210 (also found as the Loire 21 and Loire-Nieuport 210) Single-engine seaplane fighter (1937, 21 built).
240 See Loire-Nieuport LN-10.
250 Single-seat fighter prototype competing with LN-160 (1935, one built).


LOIRE-NIEUPORT

LN-10 (former Loire 240) Gull-wing twin-float twin-engine torpedo-bomber seaplane (1939, one built).
LN-160 (former Nieuport 160) Single-engine, single-seat fighter prototype, first LN-161 prototype when flown with Hispano-Suiza 12Xcrs engine (1935).
LN-161 (former Nieuport 161) Fighter prototypes with Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs engine (also known as SNCAO 161) (3 built, 1936).
LN-20 Twin-engine twin-fin fighter project (1939).
LN-30 Very large flying boat airliner project, an enlarged derivative of the Loire 102 with six Hispano-Suiza 12Ydrs engines (became CAO.300).
LN-301 New designation of LN-31.
LN-31 (redesignated as LN-301) Variant of LN-30 with five Gnome & Rhône Lars 1 engines (1936).
LN-40 Single-seat single-engine dive-bomber prototype derived from the Ni-140 and LN-161 (1936).
LN-401 Production version of LN-40 for French Aéronavale (1939, 36 built).
LN-402 One LN-401 modified experimentally with a Hispano-Suiza 12Y-31 engine (1939).
LN-411 Production version of LN-40 for French Armée de l'air (1939, 40 built, all transferred to Aéronavale but one).
LN-42 Last LN-411 modified with entirely new wing and more powerful engine (1940).
LN-560 Dive-bomber project with Hispano-Suiza 12 Z engine.
LN-561 Dive-bomber project with Hispano-Suiza 12 Z engine.
LN-60 Single-seat fighter project, an optimised version of the LN-161 (became the CAO.200) (1938).


Useful links:

• The Fan d'avions website: http://fandavion.free.fr/loire_constructeur.htm
• The Aviafrance website: http://www.aviafrance.com/constructeur.php?ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=836

 

[hesham]

Please Stargazer,


don't forget;


40,41 and 42;

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8654.0.html

20

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8654.30.html

 

[Stargazer]

I added them even before you posted this, but thanks anyway!

 

[hesham]

Hi,


the Loire 10 was a colonial aircraft project,powered by one 230 hp Salmson 9 Ab engine.


AFM magazine 04

 

[c460]

Hi,
Some additions from an article by Claveau in Trait d'Union no.247:
- Loire 53: Projected two-seat trainer variant of the Loire 50, with HS 9 Qdr engine
- the aircraft described above as "Loire 603" is called Loire 602 in the article
- Loire 62: Projected two-seat trainer variant of the Loire 601, with GR 9 Adx
- Loire 63: Projected three-seat observation variant of the Loire 601, with HS 9 Qdr
- various three- and four-engine configurations were initially considered for the Loire 70
- the series production Loire 70 was called Loire 70 S (confirmed in Les Ailes Françaises vol.2)
- the Loire 701 was a project only (confirmed in Les Ailes Françaises vol.2)
- Loire 80: three-engine derivative of the Loire 70, project only
- Loire 100: flying boat for the South Atlantic, four push-pull HS 9V engines on the wings
- Loire 101: similar to the Loire 100, same engines in tractor position (the two projects were superseded by the Loire 102)
- Loire 102M: military variant of the Loire 102
- name unknown: variant of the Loire 102 for Mediterranean service
- the two versions of the Loire 130 were sometimes called Loire 130 Métropole and Loire 130 Colonial (confirmed in Les Ailes Françaises vol.2)
- Loire 135: projected coastal observation variant of the Loire 130
- name unknown: projected transport variant of the Loire 130
- Loire 211: projected variant of the Loire 210 with GR 14 Mars

 

[hesham]

- name unknown: variant of the Loire 102 for Mediterranean service

I think it was Loire-105 as in Messier site.

 

[hesham]

What was this ?;

(A promizing LN 600 carrier torpedo bomber flew successfully 35 hours before June 1940).

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/loire-and-loire-nieuport-projects.8654/page-2#post-179324

 

[hesham]

Hi,

LN-21 was developed from LN-20 as C.2 instead off C.3,a two-seat fighter Project
LN-43 was on-board from aircraft carrier,a version of LN-42
LN-70 ------?
LN-80 was a redesigned of LN-21

 

[hesham]

From TU magazine,

602 was a version of Type-601,but powered by three 230 hp Salmson 9Ad engines,mounted in pulling
position.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

in 1934 competition,for South Transatlantic aircraft,Loire submitted a proposal,powered by three
engines,but remained a project,I have a strong feeling it was Loire Type-90 ?.

 

[airman]

What was this ?;

(A promizing LN 600 carrier torpedo bomber flew successfully 35 hours before June 1940).

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/loire-and-loire-nieuport-projects.8654/page-2#post-179324

i know SNCAC (Farman , Hanriot, Liore Nieuport) Nc-600 .

 

[hesham]

My dear Airman,

SNCAC NC.600 was not related to Loire-Nieuport (later SNCAO) LN-600,and I think it was a mistake and he might mean LN.400 ?.

 

[Apophenia]

SNCAC NC.600 was not related to Loire-Nieuport (later SNCAO) LN-600,and I think it was a mistake and he might mean LN.400 ?.

Why? In the link, aviadrix specifically describes a "carrier torpedo bomber". So, his "LN 600" obviously refers to the built SNCAO CAO 600 prototype.

I'm curious as to how an unfinished T3 project for the Armée de l'Air would relate to the CAO 600? Are you suggesting that the Algol-powered LN 400/CAO 400 employed an airframe related to that of the naval CAO 600?

 

[hesham]

Why? In the link, aviadrix specifically describes a "carrier torpedo bomber". So, his "LN 600" obviously refers to the built SNCAO CAO 600 prototype.

I'm curious as to how an unfinished T3 project for the Armée de l'Air would relate to the CAO 600? Are you suggesting that the Algol-powered LN 400/CAO 400 employed an airframe related to that of the naval CAO 600?

Yes it's,you get it my dear Apophenia,it was SNCAO CAO,600 and not LN-600,wrong
designation.

 

[hesham]

Hi,
Some additions from an article by Claveau in Trait d'Union no.247:
- Loire 53: Projected two-seat trainer variant of the Loire 50, with HS 9 Qdr engine
- the aircraft described above as "Loire 603" is called Loire 602 in the article
- Loire 62: Projected two-seat trainer variant of the Loire 601, with GR 9 Adx
- Loire 63: Projected three-seat observation variant of the Loire 601, with HS 9 Qdr
- various three- and four-engine configurations were initially considered for the Loire 70
- the series production Loire 70 was called Loire 70 S (confirmed in Les Ailes Françaises vol.2)
- the Loire 701 was a project only (confirmed in Les Ailes Françaises vol.2)
- Loire 80: three-engine derivative of the Loire 70, project only
- Loire 100: flying boat for the South Atlantic, four push-pull HS 9V engines on the wings
- Loire 101: similar to the Loire 100, same engines in tractor position (the two projects were superseded by the Loire 102)
- Loire 102M: military variant of the Loire 102
- name unknown: variant of the Loire 102 for Mediterranean service
- the two versions of the Loire 130 were sometimes called Loire 130 Métropole and Loire 130 Colonial (confirmed in Les Ailes Françaises vol.2)
- Loire 135: projected coastal observation variant of the Loire 130
- name unknown: projected transport variant of the Loire 130
- Loire 211: projected variant of the Loire 210 with GR 14 Mars

The problem is that if the new book about company speaks only about these projects,which we already know them !.

 

[airman]

Yes it's,you get it my dear Apophenia,it was SNCAO CAO,600 and not LN-600,wrong
designation.

Now it balance.

 

[hesham]

Now it balance.

What is that means my dear Airman ?.

 

[airman]

What is that means my dear Airman ?.

it all adds up for saying Cao-600 is right designation.

 

[hesham]

In my new book,you will find more projects about Loire and Loire-Nieuport.

 

[airman]

In my new book,you will find more projects about Loire and Loire-Nieuport.

for now i have ordered book of CAC projects.

 

[PhR]

LOIRE-NIEUPORT

LN-160 (former Nieuport 160) Single-engine, single-seat fighter prototype, first LN-161 prototype when flown with Hispano-Suiza 12Xcrs engine (1935).
LN-161 (former Nieuport 161) Fighter prototypes with Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs engine (also known as SNCAO 161) (3 built, 1936).

Hello,
I don't fully agree with this: the Nie 160 and Nie 161 never became LN-160/161.

An internal memo, number 682 of December 19th, 1935, specifies that even numbers are assigned to the studies of the Issy-les-Moulineaux office (Nieuport), while odd numbers are assigned to those of the Saint-Nazaire office (Loire). LN-10, 30 and 50 are reserved for Loire office, LN-20, 40 and 60 for Nieuport. But this memo also precise that this new numbering does not apply on planes already ordered: Nie 160, Nie 161, Loire 210 and Loire 250 did not change. Only the Loire 240 became LN-10.

One year after, November 10th, 1936, another internal memo explains the new designation for SNCAO, which absorbed Loire-Nieuport: "the said prototypes will have as a general designation the following grouping of letters: C.A.O. followed by all the definitions established by the standards sheets. It is of course understood that Saint-Nazaire will take the odd numbers and Issy-les-Moulineaux the even numbers. However , the L.N.10 will keep its name". As a consequence, CAO 100, 300, 500 and 700 were reserved for Saint-Nazaire office, and CAO 200, 400 and 600 for Issy-les-Moulineaux. Once again, application was not retroactive: the LN-10, which had been ordered in between never became a CAO. On the contrary, the LN-60 project became CAO 200.

Hope it clarifies.
PhR

 

[Stargazer]

Hope it clarifies.

Thanks a lot for this!

 

[hesham]

Hi,

of course Stargazer and C460 (Adrien) did a great job here,and in my files,
the Loire & Loire-Nieuport list as following,definitely it was included a civil
projects,

Loire : 10,11,12,20(First use),21,20,30,301,32,40,41,42,43,44,45,45 LP,46,50,50 Imp,50bis,501,502,503,51,52,53,60,60 Imp,601,602,603,61,62,63,70,70S,701,71,
80,90 ?,100,101,102,102M,110 ?,120 ?,130,130M,130C,130 Imp,135,140 ?,210,
211,240 & 250

Loire-Nieuport : LN 10,20,21,30 (First use),31,301,30,40,401,402,41,420,42,43,560,
561,60,70 ?,80 ?

 

[PhR]

Hi,

of course Stargazer and C460 (Adrien) did a great job here,and in my files,
the Loire & Loire-Nieuport list as following,definitely it was included a civil
projects,

Loire : 10,11,20(First use),21,20,30,301,32,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,50,50 Imp,50bis,
501,502,503,51,52,60,60 Imp,601,602,603,61,62,63,70,70S,701,71,80,90 ?,100,101,
102,102M,110 ?,120 ?,130,130M,130C,130 Imp,135,140 ?,210,211,240 & 250

Loire-Nieuport : LN 10,20,21,30 (First use),31,301,30,40,401,402,41,42,43,560,
561,60,70 ?,80 ?

I have in addition in my records:
- Loire 12: project for Loire 10/11 powered by Gnome-Rhone 7K
- Loire 45LP: 1 prototype 1st flown July 18th, 1935. LP stands for "Largage de parachutes"
- Loire 53: project for a three-seater training seaplane / small coastal surveillance, powered by 1 Hispano 6Qdr 350 ch
- LN 411: 44 built. 1st flown March 28th, 1940. Derived from LN 41
- LN 420: initial designation. Became LN 42.

 

[hesham]

Many great thanks,my dear Philippe,

and I forget Loire-53,also Loire-12 is completely new for me,do you have
more ?,and thanks

 

[PhR]

also Loire-12 is completely new for me,do you have
more ?,and thanks

Yes, you can find few more details in the book published by Gérard Bousquet about Loire: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/les-avions-et-hydravions-loire-by-gérard-bousquet.43467/

 

[hesham]

In my files,but I am not sure,there is a two proposals for these contests,

- Patrol maritime flying boat,1931 up to 1933

- Long range maritime flying boat,1935/36

 

[hesham]

In my files,but I am not sure,there is a two proposals for these contests,

- Patrol maritime flying boat,1931 up to 1933

- Long range maritime flying boat,1935/36

Also as I know,the company built an aircraft under license ?.

 

[Apophenia]

Also as I know,the company built an aircraft under license ?.

If you mean Loire-Nieuport specifically, yes, they license-built 70 x Potez 25 A2, 19 x Bloch MB.200, and 40 x Dewoitine D.501 before being nationalised as part of SNCAO. However, I am not aware of any of those licensed types receiving LN designations.

 

[hesham]

If you mean Loire-Nieuport specifically, yes, they license-built 70 x Potez 25 A2, 19 x Bloch MB.200, and 40 x Dewoitine D.501 before being nationalised as part of SNCAO. However, I am not aware of any of those licensed types receiving LN designations.

It's a fighter,and didn't give the prefix "LN",but from Loire only,may my dear
Philippe knows ?.

 

[hesham]

Loire : 10,11,12,20(First use),21,20,30,301,32,40,41,42,43,44,45,45 LP,46,50,50 Imp,50bis,501,502,503,51,52,53,60,60 Imp,601,602,603,61,62,63,70,70S,701,71,
80,90 ?,100,101,102,102M,110 ?,120 ?,130,130M,130C,130 Imp,135,140 ?,210,
211,240 & 250

As I promised,

Loire-10 was a colonial aircraft project,powered by one 230 hp Salmson 9 Ab engine
Loire-11 was a version,powered by one 300 hp Lorraine Algol 9 Na engine
Loire-12 was a project for Loire 10/11 powered by Gnome-Rhone 7K engine
Loire-20 was a colonial aircraft project powered by two 400 hp Hispano-Suiza engines
Loire-30 was a three-seat reconnaissance aircraft with three Salmson 9Ab engines
Loire-31 R3 was a modification studied by re-engining the Loire 30 RN3 with three 350 hp Gnome-Rhône 7Kds Titan Major engines. Project abandonned in favor of the Loire 301
Loire-301 was an experimental three-seat test-bed for an armored turret, modified from the Loire 30
Loire-40 was a single-seat lightweight fighter project with 300 hp Gnome-Rhône Titan II engine
Loire-41 was a single-seat lightweight fighter project with 500 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Mc engine
Loire-42 was a single-seat lightweight fighter project with 420 hp Gnome-Rhone 9 Asb Jupiter VII engine
Loire-43 was a high gull-wing all-metal single-seat fighter prototype
Loire-44 was a single-seat lightweight fighter project with Hispano-Suiza engine in pusher position,may it had a twin -boom configuration
Loire-45 was a single-seat fighter,it was initially the second prototype of Loire 43, also called Loire 43bis, with Gnome-Rhône 9As "Jupiter" engine. It was later re-engined with a 880 hp 14Kcs, and then later by a 900 hp Gnome-Rhone 14Kfs. It simply became Loire 45LP by adding the parachute launching system. by one Gnome-Rhone 14 Kds engine
Loire-46 was a high wing monoplane fighter derived from Loire 45, powered by Hispano-Suiza or Gnome-Rhone engine
Loire-50 was a small three-seat training and liaison amphibian with pusher Salmson 9Ab engine
Loire-50bis was the same aircraft reengined with Hispano-Suiza 9 Qd engine
Loire-501 was a production version of Loire 50 bis as liaison type for Aéronavale with one Hispano-Suiza 9Qdr engine
Loire-502 was a projected variant with Lorraine Algol engine
Loire-51 was a project version of Loire 501,with long distance capacity
Loire-52 was a liaison amphibian version
Loire-53 was a projected two-seat trainer variant of the Loire 50, with HS 9 Qdr engine
Loire-60 was a four-seat liaison flying boat with three Renault 4Pb engines
Loire-60 Imp was an improved version of Loire-60
Loire-601 was a former Loire 60 reengined with just one Gnome & Rhône 9Adx engine
Loire-602 was the same aircraft with a tractor Salmson engine,601
Loire-603 was a coastal surveillance seaplane project
Loire-61 was derived from the Loire 60 with a single engine and reduced wing area. 1934, project only
Loire-62 was a projected two-seat trainer variant of the Loire 601, with Gnome-Rhone 9 Adx engine
Loire-63 was a projected three-seat observation variant of the Loire 601, with Hispano-Suiza 9 Qdr engine
Loire-70 was a maritime patrol and recce flying boat with three Gnome-Rhone K.9 engines, including one in pusher position
Loire-70S was a version which could carry two torpedoes
Loire-701 was the first Loire 70 re-engined with Hispano-Suiza engines
Loire-71 was a project version
Loire-80 was a three-engine derivative of the Loire 70, project only
Loire-80 (second use) was a commercial flying boat with 3 or 4 engines for Marseilles-Algiers
Loire-90 ? was unknown,but may it was a project for South Transatlantic aircraft competition,1934,Loire submitted a proposal,powered by three engines
Loire-100 was a flying boat for the South Atlantic, four push-pull HS 9V engines on the wings
Loire-101 was a similar to the Loire 100, same engines in tractor position
Loire-102 Bretagne was a large transatlantic transport prototype, a competitor of the LeO H-47,powered by four 720 hp Hispano-Suiza 12 Xirs engines
Loire-102M was a military variant of the Loire 102
Loire-110 was a biplane fighter with one Hispano-Suiza engine. 1930, project only
Loire-111 were a version of the Loire 110 with one Hispano-Suiza engine. 1930, project only
Loire-120 & Loire-121 were floatplanes studied in 1931. Projects only
Loire-130 was a high wing three crew and four passenger catapult-launched pusher patrol flying boat,powered by one 720 Hispano-Suiza Xirs engine
Loire-130M was a military project version
Loire-130C was a batch of five aircraft with reinforced structure for operation
in the colonies
Loire-130 Imp was an improved project version
Loire-135 was a coastal observation variant of the Loire 130
Loire-140 ? was unknown,but may a civil/military transport flying boat project
Loire-150 ? was unknown, but may it was transport flying boat project
Loire-160 ? was unknown, but may it was a high-speed flying boat project
Loire-170 ? was unknown, but may it was a patrol maritime flying boat project
Loire-180 ------?
Loire-190 ------?
Loire-200 ------?
Loire-21 was a single seat low-wing catapult-launched fighter seaplane,powered by one 720 hp Hispano-Suiza 9Vbs engine. One built.
Loire-210 was a single seat low-wing catapult-launched fighter seaplane,powered
by one 720 hp Hispano-Suiza 9Vbs engine
Loire-211 was a projected variant of the Loire 210 with Gnôme-Rhône 14 Mars engine
Loire-212 was planned to be the Loire 210 n° 2 re-engined with 720 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 Mars. Project only.
Loire-220 ? was unknown, but may it was a long range maritime flying boat project of 1935
Loire-230 ? was unknown, but may it was a flying boat project,intended for Transatlantic North of 1935
Loire-240 was torpedo seaplane,later redesigned as Loire-Nieuport LN-10
Loire-250 was a single seat low-wing fighter monoplane,powered by one 1000 hp
Hispano-Suiza 14Ha engine
Loire-26 was a single seat fighter tested on Eiffel wind tunnel in September 1935. Project only
Loire-260 was reserved for production of Loire 26. Not used
Loire-270


- To be continued

 

[PhR]

Loire-20 (First use) flying boat project
Loire-20 was a colonial aircraft project powered by two 400 hp Hispano-Suiza engines
Loire-21 was experimental design,no details

I disagree with some of your entries, and you don't take any account of previous remarks and corrections.
For example, there was no Loire 20 fying boat project. The Loire 20 was a twin engine project for RN3 program (see attached).
The Loire 21 is also well known: it's the prototype of the Loire 210 seaplane.

Loire-45 was a single-seat fighter prototype,powered by one Gnome-Rhone 14 Kds engine
Loire 45LP was one prototype 1st flown July 18th, 1935. LP stands for "Largage de parachutes"

Another example here: the Loire 45 and the Loire 45LP are the same plane. The Loire 45 was initially the second prototype of Loire 43, also called Loire 43bis, with Gnome-Rhône 9As "Jupiter" engine. It was later re-engined with a 880 hp 14Kcs, and then later by a 900 hp 14Kfs. It simply became Loire 45LP by adding the parachute launching system.

Please, buy the book from Gérard Bousquet about Loire https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/les-avions-et-hydravions-loire-by-gérard-bousquet.43467/ and read it instead of repeating erroneous information compiled in the press magazines.

 

[hesham]

Thanks for Loire-45,and again I didn't use an un-reliable sources,but it's
right one,they are magazines,books and a trustworthy French sites.

Loire-20 at first used for flying boat,also Loire-21 was not the same as
Loire-210,it was not a fighter at all,but I keep more Info in my book,
with more details,and of course I know Loire-20 RN.3,it's me who
sent its description ?!,here ,

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/french-competition-rn-3-of-1928.22128/

 

[hesham]

I came cross Loire-102M.

 

[PhR]

Loire is one of the few rare French manufacturers whose archives have survived and are available. I have a good part of them in copy, as does Gérard Bousquet. He based his book on primary sources, significantly more reliable than yours. The majority of these archives is available in the archives centers. The study files are voluminous and precise.
What you say about the Loire 20 and 21 is simply false.

 

[PhR]

THIS is the Loire 21.

 

[PhR]

of course I know Loire-20 RN.3,it's me who sent its description ?!,here ,

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/french-competition-rn-3-of-1928.22128/

You just forget to precise in this message that I am the author of the AFM article you cited!

 

[hesham]

If I agree that,you are right about Loire-20,which engines it had,a 350 hp
or 400 hp HS ?.

 

[PhR]

If I agree that,you are right about Loire-20,which engines it had,a 350 hp
or 400 hp HS ?.

In my files, the Loire 20 was studied to be propelled by 2 Hispano-Suiza 12Ja 350 hp. However, as it was never finished, it is possible that other engines were considered.

 

[hesham]

I approach to Loire-150 ?.