Rockwell Low Cost Fighter

Triton

Donald McKelvy
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Model of Rockwell Low Cost Fighter found on eBay.

URL:http://cgi.ebay.com/Rockwell-airplane-desk-model-fighter-T38-Talon-Sabrebat_W0QQitemZ200456655873QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2eac25d401

Seller's description:
Here is a vintage Rockwell airplane desk model with stand that has Low Cost Fighter Los Angeles Division International. I know that this a Rockwell Jet Fighter,and Not a T-38 Talon or Sabrebat, but it is that type of classic jet fighter. Its unmarked as to what type of airplane it is.
Measures 12" x 8" overall Good condition,has a piece of he wing tip missing
Please view all photos and ask any question before you bid. You can also make your determination from our detailed photos.!!
Sold As Seen in the photos as is .
 

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I have a clue that LCF coud be HiMAT based alternative, initially being main Rockwell's entry in early stage of ATF competition ('numbers fighter' version), dropped later in favour of Raymer's design
 
It seems like a later design than the HiMAT to me. Because, in fact, the fuselage reminds me of the Sabrebat's fuselage, their FSW demonstrator submission, so I would put it in that time frame.
 
I agree. One thing that strikes me about this design is the size of the canards. They are so large they almost make it a tandem wing aircraft!
 
Mr. Cummings was a configuration designer at Boeing (Heritage Rockwell) from 1967-1982. During that time he worked on the B-1, early Stealth aircraft, AFTI, and Low-cost Fighter designs. In 1978 he was appointed Chief Engineer of the Next Generation Trainer (NGT) program.

http://brainernet.com/aboutus.html
 
I got in touch with Darold Cummings (known him for a few years). He sent me some very cool layout views of a manned pre-HiMat supercruiser, one of several dozen looked at. I don't think it has ever been released. It's in a three page pdf. Anyone feeling like pasting it together? I would putz around with PS but it's a nice drawing and I'd rather have someone who knows what he's doing fix it.
 
AeroFranz said:
I got in touch with Darold Cummings (known him for a few years). He sent me some very cool layout views of a manned pre-HiMat supercruiser, one of several dozen looked at. I don't think it has ever been released. It's in a three page pdf. Anyone feeling like pasting it together? I would putz around with PS but it's a nice drawing and I'd rather have someone who knows what he's doing fix it.

I'll be happy to do it...
 
Here's a quick attempt. Needs the noise taking out.

Scott - I forwarded the PDF to you.
 

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Paul, feel free to move this to the appropriate place.
I contacted Darold this morning about the LWF.

I believe this was one of the Lightweight Fighter concepts. I may have a copy of the original drawings in one of my notebooks (unfortunately they are stored at my barn, and I don't get there very often). I believe this was done after my AFTI concepts, and before HiMat. The AFTI concepts used a canard and a jet flap out of the trailing edge of the wing, and wing-tip plates (I will enclose a picture...this is the first project I led at Rockwell). I worked on the Lightweight fighter next, which was a similar concept, except a single engine and no jet flap. I believe the model is one of these concepts. After the Lightweight Fighter I went on to lead and design the NGT (Next Generation Trainer), photo enclosed.

later conversation, pertaining to the layout drawing Paul patched together:
I did some digging, and I found a great drawing, dated 1-23-75 entitled "D525-106, AFTI-Air Combat Fighter-SuperLight-Single YJ101 Engine". I think there was a whole series of drawings I did that linked the AFTI work (I probably did 20+ AFTI concepts) to the Lightweight Fighter (I think I did at least 15+ LWF concepts). This design is really neat looking, and would appear modern today. It is zoomier than the model you have (I don't think we made models of the really far-out designs)

and
I don't think Rockwell ever released the drawings we did with the upward-curved outer wing panels. We had a study going on using all-composite wings that were tailored for maximum L/D at one supersonic design point (supercruise in 1975!). If you can imagine the whole outer wing being a tailored-winglet (acting also as a V-tail!), you get the idea! It also had 2-D thrust vectoring! I think this was very much ahead of its time in January of 1975! This was even before Raymer joined Rockwell!

I asked if I could post this, and he said
You can post this drawing if you want to.... I always thought this design would make a great display model! HiMat was an extension of this design philosophy.
 

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A bit OT, but in case you were wondering where all the companies' archives and conceptual designs drawings end up:

Doing this digging reminded me of how I even was able to even have the drawings I have today. Back in 1994, when Rockwell moved from El Segundo (sold all the buildings and land to either developers or Northrop) to Seal Beach, we were asked to just take what we needed to get started (immediate drawings, papers, etc), and pack or throw out the rest. I packed all my old drawings and notebooks in boxes and labeled them. The company threw out any drawings that weren't claimed into a big dumpster. I remember Marty Crehan going though the dumpster and getting the original B-70, X-15, F-100, P-51, etc drawings!!!! Marty was the biggest collector of old aircraft drawings and books that I had ever met! I don't know what became of those drawings!

When we arrived in Seal Beach, all of our "historical boxes" of material had mysteriously disappeared! All my drawings for the last 20+ years were gone! I think Rockwell had just wanted everything to "go away". Two years later, when Rockwell was bought by Boeing, Marty Crehan made another great discovery. In an empty factory building, the new Boeing team had found hundreds of boxes of drawings and notebooks that Rockwell had "misplaced" in 1994. Boeing had dumped the contents of these boxes (this pile had to be 50 ft in diameter and 10 ft high!) onto the factory floor, and gave the Rockwell employees one week to claim anything they wanted, and then it was all going into the dumpster! Marty came running into my office and told me to get my butt over to the factory, as all my old notebooks were in that pile! Sure enough, there were all my notebooks and drawings! The scene of Rockwell employees going through this big pile was like people finding their belongings after an earthquake or flood! Boeing never made an official announcement about the pile, so you had to find out about the pile by word of mouth. If Marty had not stumbled on the pile and came and got me, I wouldn't have ANY of my old drawings!
 
I think this patent appeared in some other post before, but I did not know what its name was.

According to Darold Cummings:

I think you have both seen this. While I was waiting for the JPATS award to be announced in 1995, Boeing asked if I could draw a stealthy fighter that employed their "Active Flexible Wing" technology (high aspect ratio wing with multiple control surfaces to reduce wing bending loads) and no vertical tails, so it could be very maneuverable and have supersonic cruise capability (jeez, 1975 all over again). I drew up this "Deep Sabre" concept, which they liked enough to allow me to patent it (white world). When we lost JPATS, I immediately went to work to "save" the X-40A and didn't think any more about the Deep Sabre.
 

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Nice! the drawing doesn't show canards...must be one of the several configurations studied, unless those were flick out surfaces.
 
Wow, great info and how sad the way Boeing treated the old Rockwell design studies/notes. BTW, did he send you any pics of the manned HiMAT? I would swear I have seen drawings, especially cutaways, of their HiMAT as a manned fighter/demonstrator.

Also, any P.I.'s here? We obviously need to track down Marty Crehan. ;D

Thanks for sharing.
 
No cutaways, but these are in the AFTI topic...

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,133.0.html

index.php

index.php
 
Nice artwork. Interesting that two of those don't use the jet flap exhaust, that was a big part of the HIMAT concept but unfortunately it couldn't be tested in the subscale demonstrator.
 
A new treasure trove of undisclosed concepts... Brilliant! The story about the NAA archives is so sad, but unfortunately not an isolated case I guess. Everytime a company is merged into a bigger one, tons of documents are discarded in the same way. This is of course the managerial way of doing things, because these people just run businesses, they have no notion about 1°) keeping a wealth of research material whose conclusions could save time on newer programs, and 2°) preserving aviation history for future generations of researchers and enthusiasts. The sad thing is that at no point anyone ever considered that perhaps a museum could have gladly all or part of the stuff; rather, the dumpster was considered the only alternative to employees foraging the files.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
The sad thing is that at no point anyone ever considered that perhaps a museum could have gladly all or part of the stuff; rather, the dumpster was considered the only alternative to employees foraging the files.


I was talking to a guy from NASA Ames. He was telling me that they tried unsuccessfully to get a museum to take several of their old X-planes, in particular the QSRA. Now, this is the vehicle that achieved the highest lift coefficient in the history of aviation. Gotta be worth something, you'd think. Instead it's rotting in one of the blimp hangars.
 
More from Darold Cummings, apologies for image duplicates: "Cleaning boxes (how unusual) and I found one of my "missing link" pictures. As you recall, I started the AFTI (Advanced Fighter Technology Integration) program at Rockwell in 1973 (first attachment). Neat design but not funded by the Air Force (they modified an F-16 as a low cost approach). However, the AFTI did lead directly to the HiMat in 1976, which worked out well. In about 1978 I was asked to sketch what a Forward Swept Wing version of the AFTI might look like (see attachment 2). Since I couldn't use the jet flap wing, I just changed to 2D body nozzles. Wing tip tails no longer worked, so I just used the popular Rockwell FX single vertical tail. This design led to the much nicer finished version with the Rockwell FX chin inlet and a simple round nozzle (I did not do this final design...and I don't know who did the final version, as I was too busy on NGT to keep track of FSW, as they were parallel projects).
 

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So, found this design in an AIAA Paper. Seems to be twin engined version of LCF.


index.php


The Rockwell LWF shown in Figure 9 is a small, affordable fighter / interceptor for the United States military, NATO and the free-world countries. The LWF concept uses advanced propulsion, avionics and weapons technology to achieve a small, yet highly effective aircraft and is an approach to countering the massive Soviet buildup in tactical air power. The Rockwell LWF employs thrust reversers and is powered by two augmented turbofan engines.

Source: AIAA Paper 1981-1502 ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY ENGINE STUDIES (ATES) A STATUS REPORT William S. Wlllis General Electric Company
 

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Great find my dear Paul,


please can you guide me direct to the link,thanks.
 
I believe Rockwell called its FSW airplane the Sabre Bat. Grumman of course won the FSW contest and produced the X-29A. -SP
 

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Wow hesham I must say, you've provided some great info/drawings my friend!
To think that this Low Cost Fighter design study is smaller than an F-5 Tiger II, let alone the size of the F-86 Sabre, really goes against USAF/American fighter ideology!

Regards
Pioneer
 
The Rockwell Counterattack fighter seems have been envisioned as a low cost mass produced battlefield interdictor, much as the Grumman LOCI was planned as a low cost mass produced battlefield interceptor. The two types would have complimented each other very well if they had been procured. Makes you wonder if there was some cooperation between the two companies with regards as to low cost designs for the USAF during this period (early 1980s).
 
Pioneer said:
Wow hesham I must say, you've provided some great info/drawings my friend!
To think that this Low Cost Fighter design study is smaller than an F-5 Tiger II, let alone the size of the F-86 Sabre, really goes against USAF/American fighter ideology!

Regards
Pioneer


Thank you my dear Pioneer,


I hope to find anther PDF,has a more Info about it,I will search.
 
Grey Havoc said:
The Rockwell Counterattack fighter seems have been envisioned as a low cost mass produced battlefield interdictor, much as the Grumman LOCI was planned as a low cost mass produced battlefield interceptor. The two types would have complimented each other very well if they had been procured. Makes you wonder if there was some cooperation between the two companies with regards as to low cost designs for the USAF during this period (early 1980s).
The listed armament of 20mm canon or AIM-9L would seem to make the Counterattack Fighter an air-combat aircraft, not a ground-attack aircraft.
 
TomS said:
Grey Havoc said:
The Rockwell Counterattack fighter seems have been envisioned as a low cost mass produced battlefield interdictor, much as the Grumman LOCI was planned as a low cost mass produced battlefield interceptor. The two types would have complimented each other very well if they had been procured. Makes you wonder if there was some cooperation between the two companies with regards as to low cost designs for the USAF during this period (early 1980s).
The listed armament of 20mm canon or AIM-9L would seem to make the Counterattack Fighter an air-combat aircraft, not a ground-attack aircraft.

When I saw it I just assumed it was self-defense loadout, but you could be right. Which would then make it something of a direct competitor to the LOCI.
 
Hi,

here is a Rockwell low-cost ground attack fighter Project.

http://archive.aviationweek.com/image/spread/19780626/9/2
 

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hesham said:
Hi,

here is a Rockwell low-cost ground attack fighter Project.

http://archive.aviationweek.com/image/spread/19780626/9/2

Paul_MM has posted the same picture in the topic on the Blitzfighter program, and had a guess that this may have been from Northrop.
 

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