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Author Topic: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors  (Read 10182 times)

Offline blackkite

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« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 01:39:23 am by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2017, 03:37:53 am »
I want to ask questions. What is M.S.460? What is D-3801?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 03:40:05 am by blackkite »

Offline Arjen

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2017, 05:14:36 am »
Doflug D-3801 was a licence-built version of the MS 412 - 1050hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y51.
MS 460 was an entirely new design with a 1200hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y89/12Z - a fuel-injected, four valve per cylinder engine. An unfinished prototype was put on a barge to be transported South during the German advance in 1940, but apparently was dumped into the Briare canal.
Source: 'Morane-Saulnier - Ses Avions, ses Projets' by Henri Lacaze, Lela Presse ©2013. I bought my copy in January. A great read.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2018, 11:35:12 am »
ok, doing research for France Fights On, I'm trying to get a clearer view of the entire Morane - Swiss connection.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/france-fights-on.337031/page-3

There is a lot of good information in this thread, but it is a little all over the place.

MS-406 12Y31 860 h.p, first flight August 8, 1935. 1100 build.

MS-410 upgrade of build MS-406s with better wing and radiators, for the French Air Force.
MS-411 and MS-412
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_M.S.406#M.S.411,_M.S.412

MS-406H. 2 MS-406 flight tested in 1938 - 1939. 12Y31.

D-3800 Same aircraft, stock MS-406, with 12Y77, a 12Y31 build under licence by Saurer. 82 build until 1940.

D-3801 Improved aircraft, Saurer 12Y51 also known as YS-1, 1000 h.p. 207 build between 1939 and 1948.

MS-450 http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/morane_ms-450.php

MS-540
https://www.google.fr/search?q=MS-540+swiss&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAh_CYv4rZAhUKJ1AKHZirCJkQ_AUIECgB&biw=1366&bih=631
Thanks to Airman


http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-un-projet-de-chasseur-morane-saulnier-le-ms-540-47862630.html

D-3802 Improved 3801, Saurer YS-2, 1230 h.p first flight september 1944, 11 build, 89 more cancelled in 1945.

D-3803 Improved 3802, Saurer YS-3, 1420 h.p 1 build

MS-640 http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-un-dernier-projet-de-chasseur-morane-saulnier-le-ms-640-47858097.html

thanks to Arjen  and Justo Miranda for the MS-460 drawings...

MS 460
was an entirely new design with a 1200hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y89/12Z - a fuel-injected, four valve per cylinder engine. An unfinished prototype was put on a barge to be transported South during the German advance in 1940, but apparently was dumped into the Briare canal.
Note that it is not related to the Swiss aircrafts: the engine is not the same.
Although Hispano Suiza probably helped Saurer: the YS-2 and YS-3 might be very well related to the 12Z, which was a brand new, 1300 h.p engine from 1939 that got a second chance in 1945 but was a total loss.

MS-435 : two seat MS-406

The M.S.406 airframe was also used in a number of other projects. The M.S.430 was a two-seat trainer built by inserting a "plug" in the central fuselage with an extra cockpit for the trainee pilot, and using the much less powerful 290.8 kW (390 hp) Salmson 9AG radial engine.[26] The M.S.435 was a more powerful version with the 410.1 kW (550 hp) Gnome-Rhône 9K engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_M.S.406#M.S.411,_M.S.412

MS-470: Vanneau
http://www.avionslegendaires.net/avion-militaire/morane-saulnier-ms-470-vanneau/

More info on this thread
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9685.15.html
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 12:04:29 pm by Archibald »
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2018, 12:58:40 am »
From Jaques Moulin via the french aeroforum, I've got the side view and datasheet of
a Morane-Saulnier fighter type designated "MS.640". It has much in common with the
MS.540 (swiss designation FFA Althenhein D.3802), but radiator and landing gear are different,
the latter looks very much like that of the MS.470-479 Vanneau. The designation number could (?)
suggest a post-war type, but with a Hispano-Suiza 12Z it would have been a little bit underpowered
during the beginning jet age and it probably isn't wise to rely on the chronology of those designation.
Anybody, who can shed some more light on it ?

Morane was allowed to resume work by German occupation forces in 1943.

This year, they started two lines of development; both from the (failed) MS-450

First was the MS-540 that went to Switzerland and become the 3802, which flew in September 1944. Then there was that MS-640, that might be related to the D-3803, the ultimate Morane.

Second, from the MS-450 they developped the MS-470 Vanneau trainer that used a lot of elements from the cancelled fighter. The Vanneau flew as early as december 1944.

So the Vanneau trainer and the Swiss birds were developped in parallel, and note that their first flights were only three months apart.
I think it is a hardly a suprise an hybrid of the two aircrafts happened, since both were sons of the MS-450.

------

As said in the other thread (we should merge them) the MS-460 was an earlier development of the MS-406, unrelated to Switzerland in any way. It was yet another atempt at improving the MS-406, with the most powerful engine on hands - either the last of the 12Y, the 12Y89, or the brand new 12Z with 1300 h.p. That MS-406 was lost in June 1940 during the chaos of the german invasion.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 01:01:54 am by Archibald »
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Offline airman

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2018, 09:09:52 am »
I love sons of Ms-406 by swiss part  B)
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Offline Boogey

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2018, 01:42:31 pm »
I've found another two projects developed from the Morane-Saulnier M.S.-406 fighter :

- M.S.-407 LP - M.S.-406 No. 14 rebuilt with interesting idea of carrying one parachutist in the fuselage section.
  The airplane had fuel tanks removed to wings. In 1939 two machines were built and used for testing of pilot's parachute jumps
  with high-speed flights.
- M.S.-409 C1 - Prototype with fixed radiator of M.S.-540 C1 under the engine. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 01:50:58 pm by Boogey »
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Offline Kuno

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2018, 09:39:18 am »
"First was the MS-540 that went to Switzerland and become the 3802, which flew in September 1944. Then there was that MS-640, that might be related to the D-3803, the ultimate Morane."

Appologize for my uneducated questions...

A) Would somebody know, how the MS-540 came to Switzerland? Was it as a prototype, disassembled parts or only as drawings and calculations?

B) When did the 2transfer" of the MS-540 to Switzerland actually happen? I cannot imagine that this was done after the Germans had invaded France... or was it done via "Vichy France"?

C) Why would any further developement, in particular the D3803 still have an "MS"-designation... I assume that nobody/nothing from Morane-Saulnier was involved in this development - or am I entirely wrong?

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2018, 04:42:14 pm »
"First was the MS-540 that went to Switzerland and become the 3802, which flew in September 1944. Then there was that MS-640, that might be related to the D-3803, the ultimate Morane."

Appologize for my uneducated questions...

A) Would somebody know, how the MS-540 came to Switzerland? Was it as a prototype, disassembled parts or only as drawings and calculations?

B) When did the 2transfer" of the MS-540 to Switzerland actually happen? I cannot imagine that this was done after the Germans had invaded France... or was it done via "Vichy France"?

C) Why would any further developement, in particular the D3803 still have an "MS"-designation... I assume that nobody/nothing from Morane-Saulnier was involved in this development - or am I entirely wrong?

According to "Morane-Saulnier, ses avions, ses projets", Henry Lacaze, Lela Presse, 2013 :

A + B ) No prototype, no disassembled parts, probably the complete drawings (nothing about calculations). Morane Personnel were present in Altenrhein to the beginning of 1943. D-3802 was a mix between MS 406, MS 540 project and other options. The choices were made by Dr Studer, chief engineer of Doflug.

C ) It seems that the Morane personnel were not involved in the D-3803. And, except for the engine, the D-3803 seems to be more an evolution of the D-3802, than a materialisation of the MS 640 project. The date of the MS 640's drawing is not known.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 05:00:11 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Archibald

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2018, 10:37:05 pm »
Thank you for the precisions. That Morane naming / numbering system is totally hopeless...
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2018, 02:21:44 am »
I love sons of Ms-406 by swiss part  B)

first time I red about what the Swiss did to the Morane, I thought it was a joke. They really turned a donkey (MS-406) into a thoroughbred(D-3803)

What Saurer did with the 12Y31 is equally amazing. They raised power all the way from 830 hp to 1430 hp. nealry twice as much !

Only the soviets got similar results, turnng the 12Y into the M-100 / M-103 / M-105 family.

In turn, it drives me nuts that French pilots of 1940 had to fight 1100 hp Me-109s with only 860 hp engines. 
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Offline perttime

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2018, 03:19:58 am »
Some images have already mentioned the Finnish "Mörkö-Morane": a conversion with captured Klimov M-105P engines, for much better performance than stock MS.406.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_M.S.406#M%C3%B6rk%C3%B6-Morane

« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 03:22:36 am by perttime »

Offline Jjr

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2018, 01:08:04 am »
Hai

Has there ever be bombracks etc. used and under with planes, Finish, Swiss?

Plaese pictures/ Drawings?

Thanks

Offline iverson

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Re: Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2018, 12:33:10 pm »
Hai

Has there ever be bombracks etc. used and under with planes, Finish, Swiss?

Plaese pictures/ Drawings?

Thanks

Postwar Swiss D-3801 aircraft carried rocket launchers for ground attack.