Morane Saulnier MS.408 (MS.406 with radial engine ?)

airman

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http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/morane_ms-435.php

aviastar speak about Morane Saulnier 435, and Ms 408 or M.s 433 ( a single seat version of Morane Saulnier 430)
 

lark

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

See: www.aviafrance.com
choose:contructeurs
go to:production

Good luck.
 

Jemiba

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

A radial engined version of the MS.406 would have made sense, as a way to
minimize the dependency on the Hispano inline engines. But the mentioned G & R 7Kfs
just developed 350 hp, so the resulting aircraft would have been suitable as a kind
of lead-in fighter trainer at best. For this purpose mainly older fighter types were used,
and as in 1939 the urgent need for combat types was clearly seen, such a type probably
wouldn't have been high on the list. Maybe a more powerful engine was intended for the
MS.408/433 ? Judging the typical designation system, the MS.408A is more likely to be a
version of the MS.406 fighter, than of the MS.430/435 trainer, I think.
 

Archibald

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

I think they were "missing links" between the Ms-406 and the MS-450 Vanneau trainer (after 1945)
 

Jemiba

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

Hi Archi,
I think, you mean the MS.470 ? The MS.450 actually was an updated
MS.406 ... and so more or less destroying my own argumentation, about
the designation system !
Nevertheless, AFAIK, as the MS.450 was developed for a new specification,
which saw the Dewoitine D.520 as the winner, the new designation perhaps
should hide the fact, that it was just a "refreshed" MS.406 ?
But in the line of designations, the known ones from MS.405 to 412 all are
direct derivatives of the MS.405 fighter . ???
Technically, a conversion of the MS.406 to a radial engine should have been possible
structurally, as it was done with the Vanneau, too.
The sketch below is just a quick amalgam of the 406 with the 472 engine, which surely
wouldn't have produced a powerful fighter. But it gives quite a nice shape ... ;)
 

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eltf177

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

IIRC Finland developed a modification of the airframe named the 'Morko Moraine', although I believe it retained the original engine. I'll see what I can find on it tonight.
 

mz

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

Mörkö-Morane used Soviet Klimov war booty engines. (Some of them gotten from Germany IIRC). The result was actually quite good but too late. (It was of course still a lot worse than the Me 109, Finland's main fighter at that point.)
 

Jemiba

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

The Finnish airforce got 41 Mörko-Moranes, but only 3 during the war,
which soldiered on until 1948. So combat experience with this type
was quite limited. The Klimov 105 was not, as stated in some sources,
a kind of licence-built Hispano-Suiza 12Y, but an indigenous design, although
of course with the input of the experience gained with the Hispano engine.
 

Jemiba

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

Using a photo I thankfully got from toura, I made a drawing of the MS.408,
obviously the fighter version of the MS.430 trainer. As far as I can tell from
the photos of both aircraft, the modification was more or less limited to deleting
the second seat and moving the forward cockpit backwards to the fuselage
windows. A detail, I have no information about is the armament. There are no guns
recognisable in the photo, but maybe the prototype was unarmed. Anybody who
knows more about it ?
 

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toura

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

Thank you very much my dear Jens
We have also the ms 407 lp (lance parachute) this is the 14th
pre serie exemplaire of the ms 406 (F.AKHZ) nothing more....
and the project ms 409 ? with a modified nose.
Perhaps the same engine but a modified place for the radiator ??
who know ?
Bye
 

Tophe

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

The Trait d'Union magazine is now starting the Morane-Saulnier chapter of its collection of French aircraft & projects 1919-1945. The first concerned issue was just up to 1918 but the rest will follow in 2010-2011. As this is sold magazines, I am not sure I could scan and post all, but I will be able to answer questions probably.
 

Grey Havoc

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

This topic should be moved to the new Propulsion section.
 

Jemiba

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

Grey Havoc said:
This topic should be moved to the new Propulsion section.
The Propulsion section is about engines and propulsion systems, but this is a thread about
a specific type of aircraft, powered by a radial engine, so it's quite ok here, especially as
the used engines were actually built in numbers.
Another example: Unbuilt versions of the NAA Mustang with, say, the RR Griffon engine, or
versions, that never progressed further, than to prototype stage, would be correctly placed
in the appropriate "Aircraft Projects" section, not in the "Propulsion Section".
 

Grey Havoc

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Re: ms 406 and radial engines

Jemiba said:
Grey Havoc said:
This topic should be moved to the new Propulsion section.
The Propulsion section is about engines and propulsion systems, but this is a thread about
a specific type of aircraft, powered by a radial engine, so it's quite ok here, especially as
the used engines were actually built in numbers.
Another example: Unbuilt versions of the NAA Mustang with, say, the RR Griffon engine, or
versions, that never progressed further, than to prototype stage, would be correctly placed
in the appropriate "Aircraft Projects" section, not in the "Propulsion Section".
You're right, sorry for wasting your time.
 

Jjr

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Morane Saulnier MS.408

This was a single seat version of the MS.430 trainer, only prototype.
Who can help me with details, such as was the cockpit hood just like the MS.405 or a new one?
Who can help me with all kind of details?
Thanks
 

Deltafan

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Re: Morane Saulnier MS.408

Do you have the book (in French) :

-Morane-Saulnier, ses avions, ses projets (Lacaze-Lherbet, Lela Presse, 2013) ?

There are some words and a (bad) photo about this plane on page 231 and a drawing (profile) on page 229. The front part/seat of the MS-430's cockpit is out. The pilot of the MS 408 use the rear seat of the MS 430. The cockpit of the MS 408 is the same as the rear cockpit of the MS 430. Only the windshield seems different. This windshield does not seem to be a windshield of a MS 405 or of a MS 430.
 

hesham

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Re: Morane Saulnier MS.408

Hi Jjr,

the MS.408 was intended to a be a fighter/trainer airplane,and it was powered
by one 750 hp Hispano Suiza HS 12Y-51 engine.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_morane_saulnier_MS408.html
 

Deltafan

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Re: Morane Saulnier MS.408

Hesham, I think that your source made a mistake : the HS 12 Y-51 was a V12 water cooled engine with more than 1000 HP.

In the Morane book that i cited in my last post, the MS 408 (we can see the name of the plane on the vertical tail fin on the photo) has a radial engine (on the drawing page 229 and on the photo page 231).

In this book the exact engine is unknown. The authors think that it was a radial Salmson 9 AG (390 HP, the same as the MS 430) or a radial Salmson 9 NAs (500 HP).
 

Jjr

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Re: Morane Saulnier MS.408

What I understand, from the little information I found, is that the MS.408 had the same engine as the MS.430.
Deltafan, I dont has this book, is it possible to scan the information of the MS.408 for me?
Jjr
 

Jemiba

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Here's the photo form the book by Henri Lacaze, it's the same as the mentioned one, I thankfully
got from toura.
 

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hesham

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OK my dear Deltafan,

and right decision my dear Jemiba.
 

Jemiba

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As an addition, to be found in Henri Lacazes "Morane Saulnier-Ses Avions, ses Projets", the whole series, containing
the MS.405 and 406, actually started with a version designated MS.400 and described as a version powered by a radial
engine, either a Gnome et Rhône 14K or 14N, or a Hispano 14H.
(Drawing from the mentioned book. Thank you for that clue, Jan !)
So, the series of designations at least makes sense, though I'm somehow waiting for the question "... and what was the
MS.401, 402, 403 ...?" ;)
 

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Jan den Das

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As the same source as the drawings from Jemiba, maybe interresting for Justo.
Dmensions of the MS.400, span 10.7 m and lenght 7.49 m
Jan
 
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