Register here

Author Topic: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)  (Read 19820 times)

Offline Bruno Anthony

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • I miss the Cold War
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2014, 10:36:59 am »
More.

Offline Bruno Anthony

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • I miss the Cold War
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2014, 10:39:27 am »
Last pages.

Offline jsport

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1182
  • I really should change my personal text
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2014, 06:20:33 am »
Only cursory scan reinforces 60mm armed AFV, LOSAT, and 140mm tank guns. Thanks for postin Bruno.. had never heard of a Hvy Assualt Gun in the modern context. (unique)

Offline Bruno Anthony

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • I miss the Cold War
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2014, 01:55:20 pm »
I forgot on which page it is but the tank main gun could have been either 120mm, 140mm or even 155mm!

Offline jsport

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1182
  • I really should change my personal text
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2014, 04:55:22 pm »
I forgot on which page it is but the tank main gun could have been either 120mm, 140mm or even 155mm!
would be for a 155mm  Crusader/Tank (and all those artillery roles subsumed) but believe w/o Liquid propellant it might be difficult to assure adequate rd stowage on the vehicle to stay in the fight long enough w/o the follower Crusader ammo vehicle. would be mighty controversial in the U S Army. IMHO no need for direct fire fights and but APSs are becoming more capable from all angles.

Offline ynm

  • CLEARANCE: Restricted
  • Posts: 17
  • I really should change my personal text
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2014, 01:14:47 am »
Page 945 mentioned 155 gun for tank block 3 if needed

Offline Colonial-Marine

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 586
  • Fighting the UAV mafia.
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2014, 02:26:06 am »
Everything I've read points as to a conventional 140mm gun being the planned armament presuming there wasn't some breakthrough in ETC or some other technology.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."

Offline Grey Havoc

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 8099
  • The path not taken.
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2015, 01:01:44 pm »
http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA117927

Quote
Abstract : The ACVT program was a joint Army and Marine Corps project to develop technology for designing and building armored vehicles in the post-1985 time frame. This paper is concerned only with the mobility and agility part of the program, which consisted of three closely related activities: Careful testing of two special test chassis, plus the General Motors XM1 automotive test rig (ATR), the M113A1 Armored Personnel Carrier (APC), and the M60A1 Main Battle Tank (MBT) , to develop quantitative data relating various measures of performance to a wide range of vehicle design parameters and terrain conditions and to driver behavior; Development or refinement of analytical models for predicting vehicle performance, and validation of these models, and Use of the validated analytical models to conduct broad parametric studies, to support war games which integrated mobility/agility, weapon systems, and armor considerations, and to evaluate concept designs for lightweight combat vehicles based on present and near-future component technology.
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline Void

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 129
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2015, 09:04:25 pm »

Offline Grey Havoc

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 8099
  • The path not taken.
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2015, 04:08:47 am »
Looks like it. Good find.
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline TomS

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2935
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2015, 05:43:30 am »
They do note that this was not the design actually pursued by ASM, but a concept proposed by the Infantry School and considered but later dropped by TACOM.


It's an odd design, IMO.  Remote turret, which was a huge risk in the day.  Large caliber gun, maybe as big as 60mm, with relatively limited ammo (~50 rounds).  An unspecified missile (doesn't look like TOW), with a bunch of reloads.  Those two remote MG turrets, reminiscent of Marder.  And somehow it still manages nine dismounts and a two-man crew in 33 tons total weight. 

Offline Grey Havoc

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 8099
  • The path not taken.
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2015, 12:13:22 pm »
They do note that this was not the design actually pursued by ASM, but a concept proposed by the Infantry School and considered but later dropped by TACOM.

We're both wrong; it was a candidate design, reaching the detailed design stage, but it was dropped sometime in 1990 by TACOM in favour of another design more directly based on the Block III MBT. Apart from the commonality issue and potential cost savings another reason may have been that the U.S Army was at the time seriously considering 11 man dismount elements for the future.


Quote
It's an odd design, IMO.  Remote turret, which was a huge risk in the day.  Large caliber gun, maybe as big as 60mm, with relatively limited ammo (~50 rounds).  An unspecified missile (doesn't look like TOW), with a bunch of reloads.  Those two remote MG turrets, reminiscent of Marder.  And somehow it still manages nine dismounts and a two-man crew in 33 tons total weight.

According to the report, the main gun had also had 160 rounds of ammunition in storage, though it doesn't give the calibre (that particular part [Main Gun Ammo] of the weight budget was 1320 lbs, but I'm too lazy at the moment to try and work it out from that). As for the missiles...FOG-M?
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline TomS

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2935
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2015, 02:12:03 pm »
Good catch on the ammo.  The gun might be something like the 45mm COMVAT cased telescoped canon? Weight is low, but the weight budget would include racks and such as well as the bare ammo. I doubt the missile is FOG-M since that was usually vertically launched. Possibly it's a generic representation of Follow-On To TOW.

Offline Grey Havoc

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 8099
  • The path not taken.
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2015, 03:26:01 am »
Got it. The missiles were to be the mysterious AAWS-H upper element. The missile design that we can barely make out in the Figure 2 image may be a General Dynamics/Hughes design proposal though this is not certain. The development of the actual AAWS-H missile was still at an early stage in 1989/1990 due to higher priority being given to LOSAT (which also came under AAWS-H) and upgrading existing/developing new fire control systems for anti-tank missiles, both then-current and future.
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline Grey Havoc

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 8099
  • The path not taken.
Re: US Army's 1990s AMS Program (FIFV, Block III Tank, Crusader)
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2018, 12:56:41 pm »
Regarding testing of some of the planned upgrades to the M1A1 / M1 fleet in general:

First, the M1 Surrogate Research Vehicle (SRV), which was used to test electro-optical situational awareness and target acquisition concepts.

(h/t xiaofan & Abraham Gubler)

Via Reddit, here's the Suspension Technology Demonstrator that tested the hydro-pneumatic suspension that was intended as part of the second phase improvement program. Unfortunately that got gutted by Congress (ostensibly on the grounds that the planned Block III tank [initially planned as a further development of the Abrams] for the 1990s would make such major interim upgrades of the Abrams unnecessary), so only a relatively few real upgrades made it into the M1A1 & M1A2. Even then upgrades, whether on the production line or as retrofits, could be a bit inconsistent, due in part I believe to the Gulf War. Of course, the hydro-pneumatic suspension was also planned to be used on the Block III.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 01:03:16 pm by Grey Havoc »
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.