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Author Topic: Mustang Variants  (Read 34178 times)

Offline GTX

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Mustang Variants
« on: September 01, 2007, 12:16:35 pm »
Hi folks,

A new thread for and unknown, secret or rare North American P-51 Mustang variants.  I'll start off by including what may have been the ultimate Mustang:



This was supposedly a proposal that North American had come up with in case the war had continued.  As you can see, it had forward swept wings as well as an advanced (specifically how I don't know), a Westinghouse jet engine in the rear fuselage and a tricycle undercarriage.

Regards,

Greg

Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2009, 02:34:38 pm »
Slightly clearer version
In God we trust, all others we monitor. :-p

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2009, 02:57:33 pm »
Here some additional info ...

Offline Firefly 2

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 05:22:08 pm »
Probably a dumb question: Where would the .50's go?

This wing doesn't seem to have the required space to store the then standard complement of 6*.50 Browning guns.

Offline frank

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2009, 07:53:48 pm »

  Interesting that the prop was to rotate 'the wrong direction'!

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2009, 12:22:32 am »
your sure it a jet engine ?
look more a motorjet (aka thermojet)

there was also a P-51 Ramjet version

fantasic art with P-51 ramjet
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7238.0.html

more on Jet Mustangs
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3637.0.html

F-82 Twin Mustang
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6748.0.html
I love Strange Technology

Offline Skyraider3D

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 02:13:30 am »
fantasic art with P-51 ramjet
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7238.0.html
Thanks, glad you like it! :)

Attached a crop of this image but edited to look like an old magazine photo.


Here's an older piece with the same aircraft but with MTO markings. Needless to say it's all fictional.



The aircraft in the background is a Junkers EF 100 transport, dressed up as "Immelmann V"... ;)


« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 02:16:07 am by Skyraider3D »

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Offline mz

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 04:54:24 am »
Great work! That postcard is especially well done, as most artificially aged stuff is not convincing at all.

Offline Steve Pace

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 07:45:00 am »
Hi folks,

A new thread for and unknown, secret or rare North American P-51 Mustang variants.  I'll start off by including what may have been the ultimate Mustang:



This was supposedly a proposal that North American had come up with in case the war had continued.  As you can see, it had forward swept wings as well as an advanced (specifically how I don't know), a Westinghouse jet engine in the rear fuselage and a tricycle undercarriage.

Regards,

Greg
Can you send me a high res image of this drawing. Thanks!

Steve Pace
When you know you're right, go ahead.

Offline Arjen

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2012, 11:44:48 am »
North American "mid-engined Mustang"

Original source: not available
Debunking: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5933.msg121649.html#msg121649
In Green's "Fighters" vol 4 p 141 ,there is a photo of the mock-up of a Mustang fitted with a RR Merlin aft of the cockpit : " y " is not a what-if , but a serious project.
I have a copy of William Green's "Fighters" vol 4, will scan image. Real project.
<edit> Found an image here.

<edit>Added William Green's image.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 11:46:28 am by Arjen »

Offline Pepe Rezende

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2012, 11:49:34 am »
It's not a Merlin, but a Griffon engine. This was a Rolls Royce testbed.

Offline Arjen

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 12:00:51 pm »
Quote
It's not a Merlin, but a Griffon engine.
Looking at the size of the engine that might well be true. Do you have more information?
I found this here:
Quote
The Merlin conversion was very promising, but the director of the Hucknall establishment, Ray Dorey, had an even more ambitious idea.  He wanted to mate the Mustang to a Griffon engine, mounted behind the pilot as was the Allison in the Bell P-39 Airacobra.  Rolls-Royce engineers believed this aircraft would be capable of a top speed of 800 KPH (500 MPH), but it never progressed beyond the mock-up stage.
Quote
This was a Rolls Royce testbed.
William Green's image caption: "The mock-up of Rolls-Royce's proposal to mount a Merlin engine in the Mustang aft of the cockpit."


Offline lark

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2012, 12:44:15 pm »
Gentlemen,

Try the searchfunction for Rolls Royce FTB Mustang

and /or FTB Mustang...

Good luck.

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 01:00:52 pm »
Additional info...

Offline Arjen

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2012, 11:53:22 pm »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 01:04:29 am »
I knew about the F.T.B. Mustang project, but I thought the one depicted in the model was different. It uses a P-51B-type fuselage and canopy instead of the later P-51D-type used in your graphics, Justo.

Offline Arjen

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2012, 03:21:13 am »
Gentlemen,

Try the searchfunction for Rolls Royce FTB Mustang

and /or FTB Mustang...

Good luck.
Knowing what to look for helps  :)

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 05:20:46 pm »
North American P-82 Twin Mustang cutaway.

Source:
http://sobchak.wordpress.com/page/2/

Now, where have I seen that before? Hmmmm...
 
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=6691
 
Hmmmph.
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Offline circle-5

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2012, 08:58:50 pm »
North American Aviation FSW Mixed Propulsion P-51 Mustang (proposed) factory model.

Offline jimbrooks

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2013, 07:46:17 am »
Fascinating.  What books describe the forward-swept P-51 prototype or other prototypes?

I have found one paragraph in Mustang Designer: Edgar Schmued and the P-51, Ray Wagner.
This book does have 1 or 2 pages of details and pictures about a rocket-powered P-51.
IIRC, North American F-86 Sabre Owners' Workshop Manual mentions advanced P-51 prototypes
before those evolved into the FJ/F-86.

I've been collection information about the exotic variants of the P-51 Mustang here:
http://www.jimbrooks.org/web/aviation/info_P-51Mustang.php
(comments welcome)

Offline fightingirish

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Re: Mustang Variants / North American D-118
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2014, 05:08:10 am »
Quote from: Orionblamblam
North American D-118

A North American Aviation concept for a highly modified P-82, dating from 1949. The piston engines would be removed and replaced with Allison XT-38 turboprops. The engines would be located mid-fuselage, necessitating that the cockpit would have to be moved well forward of their normal position. The end result would be a plane that weighed the same, gave the pilots better views and went substantially faster.
This one may show up in a future issue of USBP, as the intended role was ground attack.


Link: http://www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com/blog/?p=1537


Nice find, Orionblamblam!  B) :)


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Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2014, 05:57:51 am »
Great!

Offline Skyraider3D

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2014, 07:41:50 am »
Pretty cool!  B)

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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2014, 11:21:41 am »
Not a 3-view, rather a very basic general arrangement drawing:
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2014, 11:34:14 am »
Not a 3-view, rather a very basic general arrangement drawing:


Thanks, Jens. I almost did one myself but thought I was lacking some solid reference for the XT38 in that configuration.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2014, 12:00:15 pm »
There's no solid reference, of course, just that artist impression !
As the engine was to be positioned in the mid fuselage, there would have been hardly
much impact on the shape of fuselage, besides the repositioned cockpit and the deletion of
the belly scoop, I think. At least that's my interpretation of the drawing and of what seems
to be an intake directly in the nose, but I admit, that it would be appropriate to the "Theoritical
and Speculative" section, too.  ;)

It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2014, 12:02:50 pm »
There's no solid reference, of course, just that artist impression !

Not true. There are two three-views, one detailed inboard profile, one overview of removable panels...

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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2014, 12:12:02 pm »
All the better ! I think, we'll see it in the mentioned future APR issue ?
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2014, 02:01:20 pm »
All the better ! I think, we'll see it in the mentioned future APR issue ?

Redrafted in a near-ish future USBP.
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Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2014, 06:32:06 pm »
Interesting that TsAGI had a designation for the FSW Mustang: RD-1410. (source: Tekhnicheskaya Informatsiya, No.7, 1981)

Offline Steve Pace

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2014, 07:11:53 pm »
So that's where it came from - not in my book. It never happened! -SP
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Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2014, 07:24:44 pm »
So that's where it came from - not in my book. It never happened! -SP

???

Offline pacopepe

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2014, 01:45:45 pm »
P 51 with forward swept wings and mixed propulsion, in the korean war. MY MODEL.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 01:51:46 pm by pacopepe »

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Mustang Variants / North American D-118
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2014, 01:38:52 pm »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2014, 03:36:42 pm »
I knew about the F.T.B. Mustang project, but I thought the one depicted in the model was different. It uses a P-51B-type fuselage and canopy instead of the later P-51D-type used in your graphics, Justo.

It wasn't a P-51B that Rolls Royce used, it was some 'surplus to requirements' Mustang Mk.1's ( the Allison engine variant) that were assigned to the project.  The Rolls Royce Heritage Trust has a book on it called 'Rolls Royce and the Mustang' written by David Birch who is also the Official Rolls Royce Historian.  The engine in the photos in the above posts is a Griffon.  I had contacted David about this aircraft and asked him if he had any dimensional drawings of it, he told me that a 1/10 wind tunnel model of it still exists and he knew who has it.  I asked him to confirm some dimensions I needed, which he did.  He also told me that after the wind tunnel testing had been done, they found that the tail surfaces needed about 60% more area and that to expedite the matter they would used a Tempest tail assembly had it flown.

These are my two models of it, green/brown one is the Rolls Royce Private Venture Fighter, the silver one is the Flying Test Bed with the Tempest tail fitted and also powered by a Crecy 2-Stroke engine.

(UPDATED the photo attachments)

« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 05:43:20 am by kitnut617 »
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Offline RyanC

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2015, 06:35:20 pm »
Does anyone have any information on a possible P-51E Mustang?

I just ran across a reference to it in FLYING Magazine; September 1945; with the terse text:

"Between the D and the H, the E died on the design boards..."

Offline Steve Pace

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2015, 08:29:41 pm »
Hi Ryan,
From what I learned for my Mustang book the P-51E-NT (NA-111) was to be Dallas-built P-51D-NTs but they became NA-111 P-51K-NTs airplanes instead. NAA initiated work on NA-111 on 3 May 1943.
Have you posted any new SACs lately? -SP
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 08:32:31 pm by Steve Pace »
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Offline Nick Sumner

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2015, 07:36:07 am »
Where are the charger air intakes on the Griffon and Crecy Mustang models? Is all intake air coming through the cooling air intakes?

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2015, 07:13:39 pm »
Is all intake air coming through the cooling air intakes?

Yes, considering the charger is located practically above it
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Offline hesham

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2015, 04:41:44 am »
Hi,

can we consider those two modern racer twin Mustang aircraft a real designs ?.

http://alternathistory.org.ua/gonka-za-prizrakom-skorosti-poslednii-pryzhok-mustanga-chast-2?mini=calendar%2F2015-03

Offline lark

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2015, 01:32:22 pm »
Seems to be Ed Horkey's Twin Mustang Racer project of 1995...
If correct ,it's not in it's place here..
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 01:34:09 pm by lark »

Offline hesham

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2015, 01:42:44 pm »
That's right my dear Lark,

and now I know it was real designs,we can open new topic for it.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2015, 02:31:25 pm »
and now I know it was real designs,we can open new topic for it.

Only if there's more to add than these pictures, which I'm not sure about. Although it certainly has nothing to do in this here topic, it's not completely unrelated as Horkey was a former North American engineer, deeply involved in design and development of most fighters during and after WW2. He died in 1996 and his design died with him.

Offline Motocar

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2016, 08:56:33 am »
Griffon Mustang schematic cut after the link, speculative work

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,23005.msg286223.html#msg286223

Offline blackkite

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2016, 01:55:15 pm »
Similar concept.....
I have never seen the original drawing of Me509. Sorry for off topic.

Offline RyanC

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2016, 06:59:54 pm »
This was supposedly a proposal that North American had come up with in case the war had continued.  As you can see, it had forward swept wings as well as an advanced (specifically how I don't know), a Westinghouse jet engine in the rear fuselage and a tricycle undercarriage.

I ran across this in NARA during this week in the Sarah Clark Files. Apparently this was an unsolicited proposal that NAA gave to the USAAF in the hopes of maybe pushing the Mustang forward.

USAAF took a look, and said... "hmm...nope."

Offline RyanC

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2016, 07:01:44 pm »
This book does have 1 or 2 pages of details and pictures about a rocket-powered P-51.

"P-51D Flash" Program. Begun during the winter of 1944/45 to counter German Jet fighters. Was intended to counter them by providing the P-51 and P-47 with a brief one time burst of speed to 500~ MPH to catch up with jets.

Damn, I wish Steve Pace was still with us. He'd love the stuff I found.  :-[

Offline RyanC

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2016, 07:08:03 pm »
The AAF during the development of the P-51H just could not make up it's mind over armament:

4 x .50 cal
6 x .50 cal
4 x .60 cal
4 x 20mm

They tried pushing a 4 x 20mm armed pair of wings onto NAA, to which NAA replied "sorry, we're too busy with detail engineering on the P-51H and P-82 project to do a change order for 20mm in the P-51H."

Offline RyanC

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2017, 03:26:20 pm »
Last week I ran across the following document in the P-51 folder at NARA II in P-26 Sarah Clark:

-------------------------------------

RVS:WW:ms 3-3

January 30, 1943

Production Engineering Section
Pursuit Branch

Attention:                Lt. P.M. Hollowell

Serial Numbers for P-51's 452.1

1. Confirming our conversation, the following Serial Numbers were assigned:

a. Contract AC-30479, North American, Inglewood.

100       P-51A1       43-6003 through 43-6102
210       P-51A5       43-6103 through 43-6312
400       P-51B5       43-6313 through 43-6712
490       P-51D1       43-6713 through 43-7202
550       P-51D1       43-106429 through 42-106978

b. New Numbers Assigned:

150       P-51D1       43-24752 through 43-24901

c. Contract AC-33940, North American, Dallas,

400       P-51C1       42-102979 through 42-103378
600       P-51E1       42-103379 through 42-103978

d. New Numbers Assigned:

350       P-51E1       43-24902 through 43-25251

W. D. ECHERT
Colonel, Air Corps
Executive
for Statistical Control

1 cy. to Records Branch
             Air Service Command

-------------------------------------

I did some checking of various online serial numbers; and the very first P-51E-1, 42-103379; was completed as a P-51C-7 and it was written off as beyond repair on 19 August 1944 (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=113543)

Likewise, the last P-51E-1 of the first set (42-103978) was completed as a P-51C (http://www.aircorpsaviation.com/Websites/aircorpsaviation/Images/Combined%20Files/60J-51.pdf).

I wish Steve was still with us.  :-[

Offline blockhaj

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2017, 05:26:50 pm »
Im looking for info on the P-51K's and D's in China.
-                                 |¯¯¯n¯¯¯|
-                      ______o__(_)__o_______
-                                 |      |      |   
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-                                Saab J-21R

Offline tomi

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Mustang progression
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2018, 06:42:59 am »
Hello

Was there plan for P 51 Mustang follower with 20 - 30 mm cannons and contra props or 8 bladed propeller ( maybe forward swept wings, I am not sure) ?
Someting with R mentioned in the name. I am not sure is this real "what if" Project or somebodys imagination.
I remeber seeing an 1:48 plastic model or RC build  picture in internet, but can`t find  that  picture.
Please can somebody help ?

« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 09:33:04 am by tomi »

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Mustang progression
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2018, 08:12:19 am »

Offline Motocar

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2018, 08:04:04 pm »
Cutaway Mustang F.T.B.Griffon mid engine, author WEAL and modified by Motocar

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2018, 05:32:58 am »
Nice, interesting you drawn in cuffed prop blades ---- my conversation I've had with David Birch who co-wrote the Rolls Royce Heritage Trust book called RR and the Mustang, said it would have been a De Havilland prop. He also told me it would have been armed with three 20mm cannon.  It wouldn't have had the wing root leading edge extension either, RR used wings from issued 'surplus to requirement' Mustang Mk.1.  There is actually a 1/10 scale wind tunnel model of it still in existence where I was able to check my model dimensions from.  At the time though, it was a Private Venture Fighter, not a Flying Test Bed.

Like this below.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 05:39:15 am by kitnut617 »
If I'm not building models, I'm riding my dirtbike


Offline Johnbr

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2018, 02:28:12 am »
 :)

Offline hesham

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Re: Mustang Variants
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2018, 06:21:05 am »
Amazing find my dears Sienar and Johnbr.