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Author Topic: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)  (Read 12200 times)

Offline Tzoli

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Re: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2016, 05:06:17 am »
Try look at this French naval forum:
http://forummarine.forumactif.com/forum

The topic about the French carriers:
http://forummarine.forumactif.com/t4793-des-limbes-de-l-histoire-2-les-porte-avions
It states 2 Masurca and/or 2 Malafon launchers
according to google's very bad grammar translator!

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2016, 07:40:39 am »
There is no dispute over the number of launchers, there are definitely two, the question is whether they are single or twin rail launchers. The photos of the model suggest they are single rail launchers.

Given how massive the Masurca system was it certainly wouldn't surprise me if the French did opt for single rail launchers on the PA58 design.

Offline Tzoli

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Re: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2016, 02:59:46 pm »
Or a more logical conclusion that there were different versions studied and we only know about these two versions now.

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2016, 04:35:53 pm »
Well of course multiple versions would have been studied, thats generally how warship design happens. But at some point a final design would have been produced; that a model existed suggests that may have been the final design.

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2016, 10:29:49 pm »
Interesting topic Jackryan, thank for bring it up!!
Seems it would have been more versatile in the actual wars/Operations France was involved, compared to the single role SSBN's!!


Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2016, 10:04:02 am »
I now have my copy of 'Les porte-avions français des origines (1911) à dos jours' by Francis Dousset. Having spent a bit of time with it I am starting to think it may be the original source of the confusion, see below:

1) This book does contain the photo of the model posted previously, even under a magnifying glass the Masurca launcher still looks single armed
2) At no point does the text say anything other than two launchers- there is no text reference to twin-arm launchers
3) In the appendix there is a line drawing of PA58- however this not an accurate drawing and the accompanying text states that. The drawing is described as a reconstruction and it is stated the armament and radar is indicative. The drawing shows twin-armed launchers- I suspect this is inaccurate and just a product of the only Masurca launcher being known to the person responsible for the drawing being the twin-armed version

More widely, the book is excellent with multiple unbuilt aircraft included.

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 01:16:40 am »
G'day gents
Taking abother look at this topic, and I would like to ask, in the following posted text of the Conway's article.

In 1958, while Clemenceau and Foch were still under construction, a third carrier was approved. The PA 58 design was larger and heavier, and although it bore a superficial resemblance to PA 54, was clearly influenced by the new 'super carriers' built by the US Navy. The shape of the flight deck, which was given considerable overhang on either side amidships, enabled the island to be positioned farther outboard. Parking space amidships was thereby increased, and the 200m hangar was positioned centrally. Two deck-edge lifts, each 17m x 14m, were sited forward and aft of the island to starboard. The length of the catapults was increased to about 75m so that larger aircraft could be handled. They were, however, positioned in the same way as those on Clemenceau so that there was a clear separation between flying operations, which were confined to the port side of the ship, and parking and handling operations. The angled deck measured 192m and was angled at 8° as on Clemenceau.
The significant increase in power needed to sustain fleet speed led to a corresponding increase in the number of shafts from two to four. Protection of flight deck and machinery was on a similar pattern to Clemenceau, but the thickness of the armour was slightly increased.
The eight single 100mm of Clemenceau were to be retained but, in addition, it was planned to fit a twin launcher for the new Masurca SAMs on either side of the flight deck aft (as in the US Navy's Kitty Hawk).
In addition to Alize ASW aircraft and Etendard fighter-bombers, PA 58 was to operate Mirage IVM heavy strike aircraft. The latter, under development for the Navy since 1956, had a length of 19m, a wing-span of 12m, and a take-off weight of 20t.
PA 58, possibly to be named Verdun, was delayed by financial problems, and the Defence Staff considered a smaller design, derived from Clemenceau, in which the after guns would have been replaced by Masurca before the project was finally abandoned in 1961.


Can I request the forums knowledge about anything to do with the ending context regarding -
the Defence Staff considered a smaller design, derived from Clemenceau, in which the after guns would have been replaced by Masurca before the project was finally abandoned in 1961.

I'd be very interested in knowing more about anything to do with this proposed/studied smaller design, derived from Clemenceau

Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline Kugelblitz

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Re: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2017, 10:03:11 am »
I have notes saying a 3rd Clemenceau with Terrier was wanted in a (post PA58) 1959-64 plan, but abandoned in 1961.

Sadly I have no source for this.

The French navy did begin converting DD´s with US SAMs from 1961, so if a US SAM was a better fit in size and/or finances for the next carrier, that might have been so.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2017, 09:23:25 am »
The French Navy however picked the medium-range Tartar for six T-47 / T-53 frigates. Never heard of the long range Terrier before.
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Offline Pioneer

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Re: Verdun French Aircraft Carrier (images)
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2017, 12:38:09 am »
Thank you Kugelblitz for that information - very interesting!!
If you have/find those
Quote
notes saying a 3rd Clemenceau with Terrier was wanted in a (post PA58) 1959-64 plan, but abandoned in 1961.
, Id love to see them!!
Anyone else on the forum know of this
Quote
3rd Clemenceau with Terrier
?

Regards
Pioneer
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 12:44:36 am by Pioneer »
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M