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Author Topic: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations  (Read 37324 times)

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2016, 04:07:53 pm »
Another Dassault MD 600 designation from the end of the book Mirage III, tome 3 (Chenel, Moreau, Liébert), DTU 2008 (page 405). It's not MD.600  transport design, 4 x G&R 14R engines (1948-49).

Project from 1968 with one M53 or J79 engine (25 to 39% more power, 15 to 20% less consumption) :

-Mirage III frame but with integrated tanks (like the Mirage F1 and no more the flexible tanks of the Mirage III) : more kerosene
-Mirage F1 nose (to improve visibility for landing)
-10% more wing area (34,85 m² for the Mirage III => around 38,34 m² for MD 600)
-Wing with LERX (like the Mirage III V) for 5% more lift at high incidence
-canard considered but not selected
-flight control derivative of Mirage IV and Mirage III V, with two elevators for each wing
-empty weight : Mirage III E like (5915 kg for the III E)
-external load : 5 000 kg (4 000 kg for the III E)
-consolidated landing gear with two wheels in the front (like the Mirage F1)
-250 km more range than the III E at low altitude
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 04:46:06 am by Deltafan »

Offline hesham

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Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2017, 04:22:02 am »
MD.1020 R (1946 : design, 2 x G&R 14R engines, transport)

By the way,this design was un-sequence designation,and developed from BA.1020
or MB.1020.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2017, 03:57:33 pm »
At the beginning of the Cuny book Les chasseurs Dassault Ouragans, Mystères et Super-Mystères there is some extras for the 500, 600 and 650, and 800 :

-MD 500 : four Nene engines, 40 tons, 60 passengers for 2000 km, wings and fins looked likes those of the Ouragan (1948-49)
-MD 600 and 650 : four GR 14 R or Wright 18 cylinders, high wing, 30 to 50 tons. Transport for 30 to 70 passengers and mixed cargo, for 3000 to 6000 km (1948-49)
-MD 800 : four RR Dart engines, 24 Tons, 40 to 60 passengers for 2000 km (1948-49)

Offline hesham

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2017, 07:20:27 am »
By the way,

the designation MD 117-33 was a drawing number as I think in the book; French
Secret Projects : Post War Fighters,and was not in real MD series,am I right ?.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2017, 07:30:22 am »
Another Dassault MD 600 designation from the end of the book Mirage III, tome 3 (Chenel, Moreau, Liébert), DTU 2008 (page 405). It's not MD.600  transport design, 4 x G&R 14R engines (1948-49).

Project from 1968 with one M53 or J79 engine (25 to 39% more power, 15 to 20% less consumption) :

-Mirage III frame but with integrated tanks (like the Mirage F1 and no more the flexible tanks of the Mirage III) : more kerosene
-Mirage F1 nose (to improve visibility for landing)
-10% more wing area (34,85 m² for the Mirage III => around 38,34 m² for MD 600)
-Wing with LERX (like the Mirage III V) for 5% more lift at high incidence
-canard considered but not selected
-flight control derivative of Mirage IV and Mirage III V, with two elevators for each wing
-empty weight : Mirage III E like (5915 kg for the III E)
-external load : 5 000 kg (4 000 kg for the III E)
-consolidated landing gear with two wheels in the front (like the Mirage F1)
-250 km more range than the III E at low altitude

Wait... a Mirage III airframe with a M53 ? I knew it !  It had to exists at some point in Dassault history.

http://www.tzr.io/yarn-clip/03c668e6-9ab6-42c7-acc6-0c82d9a08b69

When you think about it, the Mirage III-T rear end was enlarged to take a TF-30, which is quite a bulky and heavy turbofan (1800 kg and 120 mm in diameter). By comparison, a M53 is far smaller.

For some reasons however I always assumed (over the last 25 years !) that the M53 either come too late or that a Mirage III airframe couldn't handle it. The Mirage III-NG and the Kfir were screaming to me "you are wrong !" but I didn't listened them.

All those goodies are pretty cool and would make for some amazing drawings - Mirage F1 nose, and twin wheels, LERX, and a bigger M53 exhaust.

Nice bird, really, another missing link on the way from the Mirage III to the Mirage 2000.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 07:33:44 am by Archibald »
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Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2017, 01:13:07 pm »
All those goodies are pretty cool and would make for some amazing drawings - Mirage F1 nose, and twin wheels, LERX, and a bigger M53 exhaust.
Nice bird, really, another missing link on the way from the Mirage III to the Mirage 2000.

Yes, but, it's a shame that we don't have a drawing...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 03:53:20 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2017, 01:46:01 pm »
By the way,

the designation MD 117-33 was a drawing number as I think in the book; French
Secret Projects : Post War Fighters,and was not in real MD series,am I right ?.
I think that, as we have MD, we have a number in the "real" MD serie (MD 117-33 or MD 107-33. We can see the designations at the bottom of the original drawings page 237 and 238) even if it has a "design" designation : the MD 117-33 was a YZ design.

Offline hesham

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2017, 01:51:10 pm »
Thank you my dear Deltafan.

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2018, 07:18:51 pm »
Another Dassault MD 600 designation from the end of the book Mirage III, tome 3 (Chenel, Moreau, Liébert), DTU 2008 (page 405). It's not MD.600  transport design, 4 x G&R 14R engines (1948-49).

Project from 1968 with one M53 or J79 engine (25 to 39% more power, 15 to 20% less consumption) :

-Mirage III frame but with integrated tanks (like the Mirage F1 and no more the flexible tanks of the Mirage III) : more kerosene
-Mirage F1 nose (to improve visibility for landing)
-10% more wing area (34,85 m² for the Mirage III => around 38,34 m² for MD 600)
-Wing with LERX (like the Mirage III V) for 5% more lift at high incidence
-canard considered but not selected
-flight control derivative of Mirage IV and Mirage III V, with two elevators for each wing
-empty weight : Mirage III E like (5915 kg for the III E)
-external load : 5 000 kg (4 000 kg for the III E)
-consolidated landing gear with two wheels in the front (like the Mirage F1)
-250 km more range than the III E at low altitude

Thank you Deltafan for bringing this enhanced development of the Mirage III series to my attention!
Would be interesting to see drawings /models of this MD 600!!


Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline Archibald

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2018, 07:14:01 am »
It would essentially looks like a Mirage 5 or Mirage 50. It wouldn't be too hard to create a (fake) 3-view, a kind of frankenstein Mirage F1 / V / 2000  composite.
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2018, 03:53:23 pm »
It would essentially looks like a Mirage 5 or Mirage 50. It wouldn't be too hard to create a (fake) 3-view, a kind of frankenstein Mirage F1 / V / 2000  composite.
The problem is

-10% more wing area (34,85 m² for the Mirage III => around 38,34 m² for MD 600)
-Wing with LERX (like the Mirage III V) for 5% more lift at high incidence

We don't know were are these 10% more wing area :

-same length but wider span of the wings ?
-root of the leading edge more forward ?
-root of the trailing edge further back ?
-the LERX is bigger (or not) than on III NG and/or IIIV ?
-mix of two or more of these possibilities ?



Offline Archibald

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2018, 10:55:10 am »
Maybe it would have LERX akin to the Mirage III-NG ?

I often wonder why did the Mirage III airframe stuck with the Atar 9K50 until the very end, in 1988.
The last Mirage III developments are
- Mirage 50 (1979)
- Mirage III-NG (1982)
- Mirage IIIEX (1988)
- Mirage 50M (1988)

One might think the III-NG might have had a M53, considering it had canards and fly by wire.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 06:42:41 am by Archibald »
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline hesham

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2018, 06:40:00 am »
From Le Fana 447,

here is an Info about Dassault T30 Project and MD-301,MD-302 & MD-303.

Offline hesham

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2019, 05:10:21 am »
From Icare 188,

the Ouragan variants.

Offline hesham

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2019, 05:21:50 am »
At the beginning of the Cuny book Les chasseurs Dassault Ouragans, Mystères et Super-Mystères there is some extras for the 500, 600 and 650, and 800 :

-MD 500 : four Nene engines, 40 tons, 60 passengers for 2000 km, wings and fins looked likes those of the Ouragan (1948-49)

My dear Deltafan,

in Ailes 7/1948,they mentioned that,the MD-500 was a twin engined tourist aircraft Project,who
we can believe it ?.