Register here

Author Topic: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations  (Read 36695 times)

Offline dan_inbox

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 472
  • Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully
Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« on: February 16, 2007, 09:52:53 pm »
Dassault models used to have "MD" designators

MD-450 Ouragan
MD-452 Mystere
MD-454 Mystere IV
MD-550 Mystere Delta, later Mirage.

What are the numbers for Super Mystère B.2 and B.4 ?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 05:17:07 pm by Stargazer2006 »

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2007, 02:26:59 am »
Don't forget MD-451 and MD-453, the nightfighter variants of the Ouragan (MD-450) and Mystere II (MD-452).
I'll browse cuny's bible to see what number would have had the SMB-2... it must have been MD-456, but I think this designation system had been dropped circa 1954 (the SMB-1 flew in march 1955).

Au fait...
the SMB-1 had an Avon engine. first flight March 1955.
the SMB-2 was modified with an Atar-101. February 1956.

The SMB-4 had the Atar-9, and flew in March 1958.

But what the hell was the Super Mystere B3 ?  ;D
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline dan_inbox

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 472
  • Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2007, 08:21:19 am »
Quote from: Archibald
But what the hell was the Super Mystere B3 ?  ;D

A night/all weather version?

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22549
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2007, 09:08:04 am »
Hi,

What was MD-456 ?.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2007, 09:12:18 am by hesham »

Offline Sandy22

  • CLEARANCE: Restricted
  • Posts: 14
    • Military Data Base
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2007, 11:54:10 am »
Hello, this is my first post in this forum (however, here I've found several old friends).
I have the following list of MD. designations:
MD.303      (MD.303)   
MD.311      Flamant III (MD.311)   
MD.312      Flamant II (MD.312)   
MD.315      Flamant I (MD.315)   
MD.320      Hirondelle (MD.320)   
MD.410      Spirale (MD.410)   
MD.415      Communauté (MD.415)   
MD.450      Ouragan (MD.450)   
MD.451      Aladin (MD.451)   
MD.452      Mystère (MD.452/MD.453/454/460)   Mystère II
MD.453      Mystère (MD.452/MD.453/454/460)   Mystère IIIN
MD.454      Mystère (MD.452/MD.453/454/460)   Mystère IV
MD.460      Mystère (MD.452/MD.453/454/460)   Mystère I
MD.550      Mirage I (MD.550)   
MD.620      (MD.620) missile
MD.650      (MD.650)
MD.700      (MD.700)

No MD. number for Super Mystère...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 10:55:24 am by Sandy22 »
Ciao from Italy :)

Offline Jemiba

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 7924
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2007, 12:08:40 pm »
Welcome, Sandy 22 !

some additions:
MD.80  ABC  (single engined trainer )
MD.316 (MB.316X and T)
MD.430  (twin engined COIN)
MD.560  (delta wing fighter)
MD.610  Cavalier
MD.620  (STOL fighter bomber)
MD.630  Cavalier STOL
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22549
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2007, 01:32:11 pm »
My dear Jemiba,

what was MD-650 ?,it was mentioned in that site with no explaination;
http://www.mda.org.uk/aircraft/5444.htm

Offline Sandy22

  • CLEARANCE: Restricted
  • Posts: 14
    • Military Data Base
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2007, 02:12:22 pm »
About Cavalier MD.610/620/630 see this site: http://www.aiaa.org/tc/vstol/unbuilt/dassault/index.html
(I found it after Jemiba's post mentioning Cavalier ...)

On the other hand, I had some references quoting that the Israeli missile Jericho was based on a Dassault design (quoted as MD.620).

It's known that before WW.2 the aircraft designed by Marcel Bloch were numbered in a MB. series.
After the war, Marcel Bloch changed his surname to Dassault and, accordingly, new designs got the prefix MD., keeping the same numbering sequence (so I'm a little puzzled about MD.80 ...)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 10:55:46 am by Sandy22 »
Ciao from Italy :)

Offline Deltafan

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 713
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2007, 06:40:28 pm »
I lost my post with my addenda  >:(  :'(  :P

Very quickly :

First flight of the MD.80 ABC : 16/10/1950
There is 5 "Cavaliers" in the Dassault story : 610, 620, 630, another STOL and a concurrent (but not the MD.921/922) of the SEPECAT Jaguar

MD.417     (MD.430 with 2 x turboprops Bastan)
MD.500     (1948/9 : design, 4 x Nene jet engines, transport)
MD.560     (1953 : design, 1 x ATAR 101 G engine, delta fighter)
MD.600     (1948/9 : design, 4 x G&R 14R engines, transport)
MD.620(1) "Cavalier" STOL (study 1959/60)
MD.620(2) "Jericho" Missile (first fly : 01/02/1965)
MD.650(1) (1948/9 : design, 4 x G&R 14R engines, transport)
MD.650(2) (1952 : design, 1 x Avon or SNECMA Vulcain jet engine, delta fighter)
MD.800(1) (1948/9 : design, 4 x RR Dart turboprops, transport)
MD.800(2) (1964 : design, bi-engine, naval, VG for the NATO marines)
MD.900     (1951 : design, 3/2 x ATAR jet engines, transport)   
MD.921     (1964 : design with the MD.922, bi-engine, VG, concurrent of the SEPECAT Jaguar)
MD.922     (1964 : design with the MD.921, bi-engine, VG, concurrent of the SEPECAT Jaguar)
MD.1020 R (1946 : design, 2 x G&R 14R engines, transport)

With the Cavaliers, MD.620, MD.650 and MD.800 (and later with the Mirages F-1 E) we can see that Dassault used sometimes the same designations for differents planes.

For Archibald : in "Dassault les programmes 1945-1995" page 148 there is a photo of an almost finished mock-up of a "Mirage F3 02"  :o
« Last Edit: February 17, 2007, 06:44:01 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Jemiba

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 7924
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2007, 12:40:35 am »
"so I'm a little puzzled about MD.80 .."
The MD.80 was a contender to the Nord 2800 and the winning Morane MS.730/732.
It was a time, when you already could say "Marcel Bloch is dead, long live Marcel Dassault !"
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2007, 02:27:41 am »
Yep, one of the Cavalier and the  Israeli IRBM have the same designation, MD-620. Very odd...  ???

The Jericho missiles were designed by Dassault, that's a proven fact  ;). All the programme was kept highly secret, as was french help in building Israel nuclear program...


In fact Dassault aircraft of the 50's were named from 3 series

- the MD- serie
- the Mystere serie + Roman number (XX for example).
- The name "Super Mystere"

The Super Mystere become the  MD-454 AkA then the Mystere IV !
 Its the only aircraft which has  name in each three categories...

Seems that there was close links between the SMB-2 and early  Etendards and Mirages...  ;)



Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline Jemiba

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 7924
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2007, 03:02:56 am »
Was just searching for the Jericho, found a drawing, but no other designation.
But here's another MD. designation, MD. SA 100, a ground-to-air missile  .
(from Carlier/Berger: "Dassault - 50 Years of Aeronautical Adventure 1945-1995" )
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2007, 06:51:50 am »
The first Etendard was the -II. It had two Gabizo engine and a fuselage similar to...the Mirage II, plus the wing of the SMB-2 !  :o
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline elmayerle

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1227
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2007, 10:41:32 am »
About Cavalier MD.610/620/630 see this site: http://www.aiaa.org/tc/vstol/unbuilt/dassault/index.html
(I found it after Jemiba's post mentioning Cavalier ...)

On the other hand, I had some references quoting that the Israeli missile Jericho was based on a Dassault design (quoted as MD.620).

It's known that before WW.2 the aircraft designed by Marcel Bloch were numbered in a MB. series.
After the war, Marcel Bloch changed his surname to Dassault and, accordingly, new designs got the prefix MD., keeping the same numbering sequence (so I'm a little puzzled about MD.80 ...)

Ciao from Italy.

As I understand it, after WW II, Marcel Bloch changed his name to honor his brother who had fought in the Resistance during the war.  His brother had been an officer in the French Army before the war and was well known for his advocacy of more modern tank warfare concepts.  Apparently sufficiently so that when his brother went underground, his code name was the French term for "tank", Char D'Assault.  And that's where the Dassault name came from.

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2007, 10:58:53 am »
Exactly exact!  ;)
In fact its brother (Darius Bloch) followed De Gaulle to London. At the time, its nickname was "chardasso". He then changed it into Dassault... and Marcel found the idea excellent, andadopted the name, too.
(I browsed chardasso on Google and found this
http://www.denistouret.net/textes/Assouline.html )
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline dan_inbox

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 472
  • Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2007, 03:03:10 pm »
Quote from: Archibald
The Jericho missiles were designed by Dassault, that's a proven fact  ;).
That is only true for the Jericho-1 of the 60s.
By the time the Jericho-2 was was developped, France had long-since betrayed Israel and allied with its Arab customers.  And in the meantime Israel had developed the Shavit satellite launchers.

In fact, there was so much suspicion lingering from those times that the 2nd generation Yericho were developed and implemented in a separate base.

(The sale of an A-bomb factory to Saddam in the 1970s by prime minister Jacques Chirac did not help)



And as for the Résistance codename of Marcel's brother the general, it was "charre d'assaut", which was a double entendre in French. (meaning both "tank" and "giant hoax")

And all this does not make me feel any younger...

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2007, 03:51:02 am »
Hmmm no politics here.  >:(
Others countries armed dictators, so why reproaching that to France only ?

No A-bomb factory in Iraq, just civilian nuclear reactors (the Osirak nuclear plant, named at the time O-chirac , that's true ;D ).

Dassault helped built the Jericho-1, the Jericho-2 and shavit were improved variants by Israel alone (where's the problem ? )

About the betrayal... never heard about realpolitik ? De Gaulle has understood, 6 years before the Yom Kippur war that western world economies (including France)  heavily depended from oil.  Where's oil located ? in Arab countries, not Israel. Like it or not, this was Realpolitik... and De Gaulle was good at this game (this not mean that i like De Gaulle nor real politik, this is very cynical...)

Let's go back to the Dassault designation numbers...




Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2007, 03:52:20 am »
And, sorry for that, but "charre" means nothing in french (certainly not big hoax ???).
(do you mean charade ? )
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline Jemiba

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 7924
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2007, 05:26:41 am »
Well, selling nuclear reactors isn't a threat to the piece in a region only, if
the buyer already has enough such equipment ... but then he probably
won't buy such technology at all ...   ;D
Selling equipment for the chemical industry can mean boosting the agriculture
by producing more and better fertilizers and pesticides, but it also can mean
poisoning revolting minorities (the german industry is very experienced in this
field ..)
And supporting the enemy of once owns enemy can bring victory, but may
produce the new enemy for the time after ... the Taliban were at least partially
former Mudjahedin, the admired and supported foes of the soviet army in
Afghanistan and Bin Laden was agent and trustee of .. sorry, I forgot for
which country ... 
Political decisions are mostly based on economics and seldom aimed at times
longer than, say 3 to 5 years.
What comes then, is out of the legislative period !

But sorry, we are completely off topic again ! We were speaking about
Dassault designation numbers, weren't we ?   
;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline dan_inbox

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 472
  • Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2007, 06:38:42 am »
Quote
And, sorry for that, but "charre" means nothing in french (certainly not big hoax ???).
Ah, maybe you are too young to have known it, my friend. Good for you.  ::)

"Charre" used to mean the same thing as "bobard", "pipo", bidon, etc, as my trusty old Larousse remembers:


Charre fell in disuse some time in the 60s. Probably at about the time the pieds-noirs returned, when lots of colloquialisms changed. The younger ones might still be familiar with one form of it: "charrier", as in faut pas charrier grand-mère:D
(for the non-Froggies, charrier means ribbing or pulling the leg).

Soooo, general Bloch had a definite panache in choosing his nom de guerre.
(actually, both brothers had panache in many things. Quite tall figures)

And now, back to our regularly scheduled MD-number research about SMB4...


Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2007, 01:57:44 am »
- Charre- old french (from the 60's. Older than me, didn't know about the word.  ::)

The Vautour was also proposed in robot variants.
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline MIRAGE 4000

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 151
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2007, 01:44:23 pm »
I find the information in the book published by the GIFAS  in 1982 (where Y could find  the Nord Aviation M4 and many another "what if" french planes)

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22549
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2010, 04:34:36 am »
Hi,

MD-660 was two-stage solid-propellent surface-to-surface
            bombardment missile,it had been developed by the
            Marcel Dassault under contract from the Israeli
            government,the beginning was in 1968.

The Jericho surface-to-surface weapon was given the
designation MD-620.

Offline dan_inbox

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 472
  • Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2010, 06:35:26 pm »
MD-660 was two-stage solid-propellent surface-to-surface bombardment missile,it had been developed by the Marcel Dassault under contract from the Israeli government,the beginning was in 1968.

The Jericho surface-to-surface weapon was given the designation MD-620.
MD-620 was the basis for Jericho-1, and MD-660 for Jericho-2 and Shavit.

Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Known BLOCH and DASSAULT model numbers
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2011, 06:11:38 am »
Known DASSAULT model numbers:

Avions Marcel Dassault / Dassault Aviation

MD.80  ABC (single engined trainer)
MD.303  ten-passenger military multi-purpose light transport based on the Bloch MB.30 design, first flown 10 February 1947 (1 built)
MD.311  Flamant III bombing, navigation and photography training aircraft, former MB.301 (39 built)
MD.312  Flamant II six-seat transport/liaison aircraft (1950) (142 built)
MD.312B  experimental version with heavier loaded weight (1 built)
MD.315  Flamant I 10-seat colonial communication/utility aircraft, former MB.303 (137 built)
MD.315B  Flamant
MD.316(X)  Flamant, one MD 315 aircraft fitted with two 820-hp (611-kW) SNECMA 14X Super Mars radial piston engines
MD.316T  Flamant, one prototype fitted with a single-finned tail, and two 800-hp (597-kW) Wright R-1300-CB7A1 Cyclone radial piston engine   
MD.320  Hirondelle 14-seat all-metal low-wing monoplane utility transport aircraft with swept vertical tail (1968) (1 built)
MD.410  Spirale prototype military transport (1 built)
MD.415  Communauté prototype light transport (1 built)   
MD.417  (MD.430 with 2 x Bastan turboprops)
MD.420  enlarged MD.320 derivative with Astazou turbines   
MD.430  twin engined COIN   
MD.450  Ouragan, first French-designed jet fighter-bomber (3 built)
MD.450  Ouragan
MD.450A  Ouragan, first production version (50 built)
MD.450B  Ouragan, main production version with Hispano-Suiza-built Nene 104B engine, revised two-section nose landing gear doors
MD.450R  Ouragan   reconnaissance variant (1 built)
MD.450-30L  Ouragan, pre-production prototype fitted with a SNECMA Atar 101b engine, air intakes on the sides (1 built)
MD.451  Aladin / Harmattan two-seat night fighter derivative of the Ouragan
MD.452  Mystère I advanced derivative of Ouragan powered by the Rolls-Royce Tay 250 centrifugal-flow turbojet (3 built)
MD.452  Mystère IIA prototypes powered by the Tay and armed with four Hispano 20 mm cannon (2 built)
MD.452  Mystère IIB prototypes which traded the four 20 millimeter cannon for two 30 millimeter DEFA revolver-type cannon (4 built)
MD.452  Mystère IIC pre-production machines (11 built) and production version (150 built)
MD.452M  Mystère II, no details      
MD.452W  Mystère II, no details      
MD.453  Mystère IIIN night fighter version, also known as the Mystère de Nuit (1 built)
MD.454  Mystère IV fighter-bomber prototype powered by a Rolls-Royce Tay 250 engine (1 built)
MD.454  Mystère IVA production version, first transonic aircraft to enter service in French Air Force (421 built)
MD.454  Mystère IVB upgraded variant with Rolls-Royce Avon or SNECMA Atar 101, afterburning engine and radar ranging gunsight (6 built)
MD.454  Mystère IVN two-seat all-weather interceptor version (1 built)
MD.455  Spirale III proposed high-wing transport version of MD.410 (not built)
MD.460  pre-project of Super Mystère (or Mystère I?)   
MD.460 TT  Super Mystère      
MD.472  
MD.473  
MD.474  
MD.475  
MD.500  transport design, 4 x Nene jet engines (1948-49)
MD.550  Mirage I (initially called the Mystere Delta)
MD.560  delta wing fighter design, 1 x ATAR 101 G engine (1953)
MD.600  transport design, 4 x G&R 14R engines (1948-49)
MD.610  Cavalier      
MD.620(1)  Cavalier STOL variant (1959-60)
MD.620(2)  Jericho surface-to-surface missile (was the basis for Jericho-1) (1965)
MD.620(3)  STOL fighter bomber   
MD.630  Cavalier STOL variant (1959-60)
MD.650(1)  transport design, 4 x G&R 14R engines (1948-49)
MD.650(2)  delta fighter design, 1 x Avon or SNECMA Vulcain jet engine (1952)
MD-660  two-stage solid-propellant surface-to-surface bombardment missile,
             developed under contract from the Israeli government (basis for Jericho-2 and Shavit) (1968)
MD.742  fighter project
MD.743  Mach 3 project   
MD.744  Mach 3 project   
MD.745  Mach 3 project   
MD.746  Mach 3 project   
MD.747  Mach 3 project   
MD.748  Mach 3 project   
MD.749  Mach 3 project   
MD.750  Mach 3 project   
MD.751  Mach 3 project   
MD.800  twin-engine naval VG design, for NATO navies (1964)
MD.900  transport design, 3/2 x ATAR jet engines (1951)
MD.921  twin-engine VG design, competitor of the SEPECAT Jaguar (1964)
MD.922  twin-engine VG design, competitor of the SEPECAT Jaguar (1964)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 05:05:08 pm by Stargazer2006 »

Offline Retrofit

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 534
Re: Bloch (MB) and Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2011, 07:57:51 am »
Dassault designation for jet engine:
MD-30R (licenced version of the A. Siddeley "Viper") installed on the MD-550 Mirage I
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 08:03:04 am by Retrofit »

Offline Jos Heyman

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 597
Re: Bloch (MB) and Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2011, 03:15:11 pm »
I have the following additions:

SEA-2: two seat reconnaissance and fighter aircraft that did not fly
SEA-3: Three seat reconnaissance aircraft which did not fly.
MB.30: Twin engined communications aircraft for eight passengers.   
MB.93: Civilian registrations included F-AMBO.
MB.163: Development of MB.162. Not built.
MB.171: Development of the MB.170.
MB.172: Development of the MB.170.
MB.173: Development of the MB.170.
MB.203: Version of MB.200. Prototype only.
MB.480: Reconnaissance seaplane which flew for the first time in June 1939. Two were built.
MB.500: Three seat training aircraft of which one was built and flew for the first time in June 1938.
MB.700: Fighter aircraft of which one was built and flew on 19 April 1940.
MB.800: Three seat light training aircraft. One was built. It later developed into the SNCASO S.O.80 and S.O.90.
MB.900: Became S.O.90 under which designation it was built.
MB.1010: Fighter project from 1939. Not built. Also known as S.O.10.
MB.1011: Development of the MB.1010 which was not built. Also known as S.O.11.
MB.1020: Proposed commercial transport for 20 passengers. Not built although by June 1040 a fuselage was completed. Also known as S.O.20
MB.1030: Also known as S.O.30 under which designation it was built.
MB.1040: Two seat version of the MB.1010. Not built. Also known as S.O.40.
MD.303 Flamant: Based on the Bloch M.B.30 design, the M.D.303 was a military multi-purpose transport. It flew for the first time on 10 February 1947. Only one was built.


Offline Skyblazer

  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 13244
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2011, 05:19:35 pm »
Thanks a lot Jos! I've added your information to the lists.

After giving it some thought, I decided to further split this thread into two separate topics, one dedicated to Bloch and the other to Dassault. This should lead to a much more satisfying understanding of these companies' designations.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22549

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22549
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2013, 01:50:24 pm »
Hi,


anther unknown aircraft project from George Messier site; the MD-912;


http://www.acam.asso.fr/histo/premiers_equipements7.php

Offline Deltafan

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 713
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2016, 04:07:53 pm »
Another Dassault MD 600 designation from the end of the book Mirage III, tome 3 (Chenel, Moreau, Liébert), DTU 2008 (page 405). It's not MD.600  transport design, 4 x G&R 14R engines (1948-49).

Project from 1968 with one M53 or J79 engine (25 to 39% more power, 15 to 20% less consumption) :

-Mirage III frame but with integrated tanks (like the Mirage F1 and no more the flexible tanks of the Mirage III) : more kerosene
-Mirage F1 nose (to improve visibility for landing)
-10% more wing area (34,85 m² for the Mirage III => around 38,34 m² for MD 600)
-Wing with LERX (like the Mirage III V) for 5% more lift at high incidence
-canard considered but not selected
-flight control derivative of Mirage IV and Mirage III V, with two elevators for each wing
-empty weight : Mirage III E like (5915 kg for the III E)
-external load : 5 000 kg (4 000 kg for the III E)
-consolidated landing gear with two wheels in the front (like the Mirage F1)
-250 km more range than the III E at low altitude
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 04:46:06 am by Deltafan »

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22549
Re: Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2017, 04:22:02 am »
MD.1020 R (1946 : design, 2 x G&R 14R engines, transport)

By the way,this design was un-sequence designation,and developed from BA.1020
or MB.1020.

Offline Deltafan

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 713
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2017, 03:57:33 pm »
At the beginning of the Cuny book Les chasseurs Dassault Ouragans, Mystères et Super-Mystères there is some extras for the 500, 600 and 650, and 800 :

-MD 500 : four Nene engines, 40 tons, 60 passengers for 2000 km, wings and fins looked likes those of the Ouragan (1948-49)
-MD 600 and 650 : four GR 14 R or Wright 18 cylinders, high wing, 30 to 50 tons. Transport for 30 to 70 passengers and mixed cargo, for 3000 to 6000 km (1948-49)
-MD 800 : four RR Dart engines, 24 Tons, 40 to 60 passengers for 2000 km (1948-49)

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22549
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2017, 07:20:27 am »
By the way,

the designation MD 117-33 was a drawing number as I think in the book; French
Secret Projects : Post War Fighters,and was not in real MD series,am I right ?.

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2017, 07:30:22 am »
Another Dassault MD 600 designation from the end of the book Mirage III, tome 3 (Chenel, Moreau, Liébert), DTU 2008 (page 405). It's not MD.600  transport design, 4 x G&R 14R engines (1948-49).

Project from 1968 with one M53 or J79 engine (25 to 39% more power, 15 to 20% less consumption) :

-Mirage III frame but with integrated tanks (like the Mirage F1 and no more the flexible tanks of the Mirage III) : more kerosene
-Mirage F1 nose (to improve visibility for landing)
-10% more wing area (34,85 m² for the Mirage III => around 38,34 m² for MD 600)
-Wing with LERX (like the Mirage III V) for 5% more lift at high incidence
-canard considered but not selected
-flight control derivative of Mirage IV and Mirage III V, with two elevators for each wing
-empty weight : Mirage III E like (5915 kg for the III E)
-external load : 5 000 kg (4 000 kg for the III E)
-consolidated landing gear with two wheels in the front (like the Mirage F1)
-250 km more range than the III E at low altitude

Wait... a Mirage III airframe with a M53 ? I knew it !  It had to exists at some point in Dassault history.

http://www.tzr.io/yarn-clip/03c668e6-9ab6-42c7-acc6-0c82d9a08b69

When you think about it, the Mirage III-T rear end was enlarged to take a TF-30, which is quite a bulky and heavy turbofan (1800 kg and 120 mm in diameter). By comparison, a M53 is far smaller.

For some reasons however I always assumed (over the last 25 years !) that the M53 either come too late or that a Mirage III airframe couldn't handle it. The Mirage III-NG and the Kfir were screaming to me "you are wrong !" but I didn't listened them.

All those goodies are pretty cool and would make for some amazing drawings - Mirage F1 nose, and twin wheels, LERX, and a bigger M53 exhaust.

Nice bird, really, another missing link on the way from the Mirage III to the Mirage 2000.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 07:33:44 am by Archibald »
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline Deltafan

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 713
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2017, 01:13:07 pm »
All those goodies are pretty cool and would make for some amazing drawings - Mirage F1 nose, and twin wheels, LERX, and a bigger M53 exhaust.
Nice bird, really, another missing link on the way from the Mirage III to the Mirage 2000.

Yes, but, it's a shame that we don't have a drawing...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 03:53:20 pm by Deltafan »

Offline Deltafan

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 713
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2017, 01:46:01 pm »
By the way,

the designation MD 117-33 was a drawing number as I think in the book; French
Secret Projects : Post War Fighters,and was not in real MD series,am I right ?.
I think that, as we have MD, we have a number in the "real" MD serie (MD 117-33 or MD 107-33. We can see the designations at the bottom of the original drawings page 237 and 238) even if it has a "design" designation : the MD 117-33 was a YZ design.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22549
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2017, 01:51:10 pm »
Thank you my dear Deltafan.

Offline Pioneer

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1572
  • Seek out and close with the enemy
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2018, 07:18:51 pm »
Another Dassault MD 600 designation from the end of the book Mirage III, tome 3 (Chenel, Moreau, Liébert), DTU 2008 (page 405). It's not MD.600  transport design, 4 x G&R 14R engines (1948-49).

Project from 1968 with one M53 or J79 engine (25 to 39% more power, 15 to 20% less consumption) :

-Mirage III frame but with integrated tanks (like the Mirage F1 and no more the flexible tanks of the Mirage III) : more kerosene
-Mirage F1 nose (to improve visibility for landing)
-10% more wing area (34,85 m² for the Mirage III => around 38,34 m² for MD 600)
-Wing with LERX (like the Mirage III V) for 5% more lift at high incidence
-canard considered but not selected
-flight control derivative of Mirage IV and Mirage III V, with two elevators for each wing
-empty weight : Mirage III E like (5915 kg for the III E)
-external load : 5 000 kg (4 000 kg for the III E)
-consolidated landing gear with two wheels in the front (like the Mirage F1)
-250 km more range than the III E at low altitude

Thank you Deltafan for bringing this enhanced development of the Mirage III series to my attention!
Would be interesting to see drawings /models of this MD 600!!


Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2018, 07:14:01 am »
It would essentially looks like a Mirage 5 or Mirage 50. It wouldn't be too hard to create a (fake) 3-view, a kind of frankenstein Mirage F1 / V / 2000  composite.
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline Deltafan

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 713
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2018, 03:53:23 pm »
It would essentially looks like a Mirage 5 or Mirage 50. It wouldn't be too hard to create a (fake) 3-view, a kind of frankenstein Mirage F1 / V / 2000  composite.
The problem is

-10% more wing area (34,85 m² for the Mirage III => around 38,34 m² for MD 600)
-Wing with LERX (like the Mirage III V) for 5% more lift at high incidence

We don't know were are these 10% more wing area :

-same length but wider span of the wings ?
-root of the leading edge more forward ?
-root of the trailing edge further back ?
-the LERX is bigger (or not) than on III NG and/or IIIV ?
-mix of two or more of these possibilities ?



Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2018, 10:55:10 am »
Maybe it would have LERX akin to the Mirage III-NG ?

I often wonder why did the Mirage III airframe stuck with the Atar 9K50 until the very end, in 1988.
The last Mirage III developments are
- Mirage 50 (1979)
- Mirage III-NG (1982)
- Mirage IIIEX (1988)
- Mirage 50M (1988)

One might think the III-NG might have had a M53, considering it had canards and fly by wire.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 06:42:41 am by Archibald »
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22549
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2018, 06:40:00 am »
From Le Fana 447,

here is an Info about Dassault T30 Project and MD-301,MD-302 & MD-303.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22549
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault (MD) designations
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2019, 05:10:21 am »
From Icare 188,

the Ouragan variants.