WW2 Luftwaffe - what if strategic vision had prevailed?

How can you call the development slow, if all others in this world have been slower?? Even with the best materials available the US didn't manage to built anything which came close to the performance of the M232 years after it was introduced.

The P-80 went from an order to produce a jet fighter from the USAAF to a flyable prototype in 139 days. Messerschmitt spent the better part of three years trying to get the Me 262 into something that worked. During that period, the 262 was redesigned from tail dragger to tricycle landing gear. The wing was almost completely redesigned. Engines were swapped.

The YP-80 clocked in at about 520 mph.
The P-80 did about 540 mph.
The P-80C which in wartime would have been in production about late 1946 was doing 590.

So, yes, the earliest P-80's were slower than the 262. They progressively got faster. The P-80 had other advantages the Germans could only dream of like a lead computing radar ranging gyroscopic gunsight, an option for tail warning radar (APS-13). Hydraulic power on all control surfaces.

That aside, both sides were eying a next generation of jet aircraft that would potentially enter service in 1946 to 1947 in wartime conditions.
If this would have been made by Germans you would surly call it over complex:

''E, Westinghouse, Lockheed, and Vickers all began developing axial jet engines before any of them saw a German one. The most complex was undoubtedly Lockheed's where Nathan Pierce, a protege of the steam engine genius of Abner Doble, built the utterly massive J37 / L 1000 engine with a two-section 32 stage compressor with variable speed and a 5 turbine section to drive it.''
Daimler Benz's attempt at a turbojet, the DB 007, was the same sort of complex insanity Price's J37 was. It had a 17-stage compressor with two sets of counterrotating compressor blades. DB then added three sets of blades outside the compressor section to give this engine an early turbofan / ducted fan section.

The whole thing never quite worked or lived up to what was promised. It was far too much for the available engineering at the time.

Price did his design in hopes of matching the fuel efficiency of piston aircraft engines but that failed to materialize and the J37, like the DB 007 never got beyond a working prototype or two.
 
Germany never had the industrial capacity, nor the fuel, to build and maintain a fleet of heavy bombers. No European country has ever had them.

In the 1940s, this immense technological feat was only available to the United States and a decadent British empire determined to mortgage its future to survive, although perhaps it was not a brilliant idea.

This costly effort also did little to shorten the war.

British bombers were forced to operate at night dropping their bombs anywhere in Germany in "zone bombing" operations in which it was considered a success for bombs to fall within a kilometer of the target.

American bombers equipped with Norden bombsight proved unable to destroy the Nakajima factory, bombing from high altitude, because Japan was always covered in clouds and strong winds deflected the bombs.

Only the Mosquito medium bombers equipped with the Oboe navigation system and the B-25s equipped with delayed-explosion bombs that bounced off the water achieved good results until enormous technological advances made the heavy bombers useful, when the Axis was already practically defeated.

Even if Germany had invested all the resources of the V-Weapons in a fleet of four engines, Heinkel’s would have had the same problems as the Allies in destroying the Supermarine factories, the Scapa Flow base or the factories in the Urals. The new weapon required a long period of development that neither side had.

But Germany had a real opportunity that no one wanted to see. The combination of the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 and small R4M rocket had the real ability to annihilate American bomber formations to the point of suspending operations over the Reich, which would have saved the synthetic fuels industry for long enough for the ground-attack versions of the Fw 190s equipped with the anti-tank version of R4M to halt the Red Army's advance.

If W-Weapons resources had been devoted to mass manufacturing the Fw 190, the battlefronts would have stalled and the Allies would have had great difficulty getting a nuclear bomber through the formidable German air defense.
 
Despite all the objections my main reason for 'supporting' more heavy bombers is because the Luftwaffe was saddled with a bunch of obsolete aircraft by 1942. At the very least an Alt-He177 is a new design.
 
The P-80 went from an order to produce a jet fighter from the USAAF to a flyable prototype in 139 days. Messerschmitt spent the better part of three years trying to get the Me 262 into something that worked. During that period, the 262 was redesigned from tail dragger to tricycle landing gear. The wing was almost completely redesigned. Engines were swapped.

The YP-80 clocked in at about 520 mph.
The P-80 did about 540 mph.
The P-80C which in wartime would have been in production about late 1946 was doing 590.

So, yes, the earliest P-80's were slower than the 262. They progressively got faster. The P-80 had other advantages the Germans could only dream of like a lead computing radar ranging gyroscopic gunsight, an option for tail warning radar (APS-13). Hydraulic power on all control surfaces.

That aside, both sides were eying a next generation of jet aircraft that would potentially enter service in 1946 to 1947 in wartime conditions.

Daimler Benz's attempt at a turbojet, the DB 007, was the same sort of complex insanity Price's J37 was. It had a 17-stage compressor with two sets of counterrotating compressor blades. DB then added three sets of blades outside the compressor section to give this engine an early turbofan / ducted fan section.

The whole thing never quite worked or lived up to what was promised. It was far too much for the available engineering at the time.

Price did his design in hopes of matching the fuel efficiency of piston aircraft engines but that failed to materialize and the J37, like the DB 007 never got beyond a working prototype or two.

You seam to be obsessed with the radar superiority. I guess, after haven to retreat in the other areas (hard metal cutting tools, forging, standardisation, fight control of the X-4 rocket, homing torpedos...) you have a point which you need to address in every posting. You should say a big thank you to Christian Hülsmeyer the inventor of the radar.

The M262 worked and shot down allied aircrafts, right from the beginning. As every airplanes during WW2, al lot of changes were made over the time. The Mustangs, Spitfires and Me109 also changed their wings, engines etc. which doesn't mean that they didn't work before.

Speculation about hypothetical wonder weapons, no matter from which side in 1947 don't really interest me. Also achievements of the time after the war are not relevant. Each side had a lot in their pipeline, but for obvious and undeniable reasons, the war came to an end (luckily).
 
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The M262 worked and shot down allied aircrafts, right from the beginning. As every airplanes during WW2, al lot of changes were made over the time. The Mustangs, Spitfires and Me109 also changed their wings, engines etc. which doesn't mean that they didn't work before.
No, the 262 didn't fly well until it got the nosewheel.

Yes, it did work once Messerschmidt ignored the Austrian Painter's idiocy, and they started using them as interceptors, not as ground attackers.
 
Actually, a nose wheel does change very little on flying behaviour... I'm sure, the Americans never noticed that the M262 worked better with a tricycle landing gear, as well as they never paid any interest in German stuff...

About the stupid ground attack role, I also heard the story in a variant, that Messerschmidt pretended it was a good idea from the Fuehrer and of course the plane could do this...
 
Actually, a nose wheel does change very little on flying behaviour... I'm sure, the Americans never noticed that the M262 worked better with a tricycle landing gear, as well as they never paid any interest in German stuff...

They didn't in that respect seeing as how the US was using tricycle landing gear on aircraft as early as 1936 -37. And, that was not some one-off either. Also, the US versions generally weren't weak and prone to failure like Messerschmitt's were.
 
You seam to be obsessed with the radar superiority. I guess, after haven to retreat in the other areas (hard metal cutting tools, forging, standardisation, fight control of the X-4 rocket, homing torpedos...) you have a point which you need to address in every posting. You should say a big thank you to Christian Hülsmeyer the inventor of the radar.

Hardly. As for Hülsmeyer, that's like saying that Sir Humphry Davies invented the light bulb. I consider all technology when looking at some complex system like a military aircraft. Having a vastly improved fire control system means an aircraft's offensive and defensive armament are far more effective.

As another example, the Germans tried mightily to get remote controlled turrets for bomber defense to work. They were never able to do so to a point where they were truly viable or effective. The US managed this with the fire control system on the B-29. Germany had nothing like it, not even close.




The X-4 was rubbish. Homing torpedoes?

The Mk 24 mine, aka FIDO homing torpedo, made the German version look like a joke. That aside, the German version was countered almost immediately as the Allies had predicted that the Germans might develop an acoustic homing torpedo--given that they were developing one--and produced a working countermeasure for it (Foxer). A modified version of the Mk 24, the Mk 27 Cutie was issued for use by submarines against surface ships.

The M262 worked and shot down allied aircrafts, right from the beginning. As every airplanes during WW2, al lot of changes were made over the time. The Mustangs, Spitfires and Me109 also changed their wings, engines etc. which doesn't mean that they didn't work before.

A few. On the whole, its operational performance was rather mediocre. Kommando Nowotny starting with started operations in September 1944 with 30 aircraft. In roughly 60 days, the unit was reduced to 2. That is, the unit lost 28 aircraft to achieve 24 kills. Hardly a stellar performance.
 
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So, were is the source for the 500 mph top speed of the Shooting star?
Reply #69:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...vision-had-prevailed.32473/page-2#post-942672
Maximum speed data for early P-80s from Lockheed Aircraft since 1913 by René J Francillon, Putnam 1982:
- XP-80: 502 mph / 808 km/h at 20,840 ft / 6,240 m - first prototype, de Havilland H.1B Goblin turbojet
- XP-80A: 553 mph / 890 km/h at 5,700 ft / 1,735 m - second and third prototypes, General Electric I-40 turbojet
- YP-80A: no data - service trials aircraft, reduced weight, General Electric J33-GE-11/ Allison J33-A-9 developed from I-40,
- P-80A: 558 mph / 898 km/h at sea level - J33 powered production aircraft

From The American Fighter by Enzo Angelucci and Peter M Bowers, Haynes 1987:
- P-80A: 492 mph / 792 km/h at 40,000 ft / 12,192 m
Compare with Me 262 and best piston engine fighters.
Angelucci/Bowers give the same P-80A sea level maximum speed as Francillon: 558 mph / 898 km/h.
 
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An invention is an idea and you make proof of it by a Patent. Hülsmeyer not only did invent the radar, he built a proof of concept design which was not only proofed in the labarotory but also puplically on the Rhine river (as well as in theUS). So he not only invented it, but developed to about TRL3.

The M262 shot down about 550 Allied aircrafts, despite the German Luftwaffe beeing totally outnumbered, so they operated very sucsessful.

In the very begining of Me262 operation the Allied profitated very much by shooting them down during the landing phase, later on this was spotted by putting Flacks in the landing path, so the early numbers are not representative.

BTW, The He177 also had remote controled guns.

The Allied sailers sunken by the Zaunkoenig sulry weren't laughing about it.... The decoy used as countermeassure slowed down allied Konvois conciderable and made them more vulnerable. Besides that, the countermeassure device (Foxer) produced intentionally a lot of noise which attracted German submarines.

The Geyer Torpedo was fielded before thewar ended, but propably never used. If was equiped with an activ echo sounder and made the Foxer useless. The MK24 Topedo was just a passive topedo, just like the Zaunkönig.

Here we find a site (https://uboat.net/allies/technical/fido.htm) with much praise on the MK24, but the actual hit rate according to the same source was clearly below 10%,. Note, for obvious reasons, accoustic decoys could not be draged behind submarines.
 
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Reply #69:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...vision-had-prevailed.32473/page-2#post-942672

Compare with Me 262 and best piston engine fighters.
Angelucci/Bowers give the same P-80A sea level maximum speed as Francillon: 558 mph / 898 km/h.

The J33 was built in 1948, when the war was long over.

The P80 only reached 707 km/h

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-80_Shooting_Star

The Me262 surly had some starting proplems, but the same is true for the P80, turbines desintegrated several times and made it a very dangerous airplane to fly.
 
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An invention is an idea and you make proof of it by a Patent. Hülsmeyer not only did invent the radar, he built a proof of concept design which was not only proofed in the labarotory but also puplically on the Rhine river (as well as in theUS). So he not only invented it, but developed to about TRL3.

What Hülsmeyer invented was more like a radio interference detector like RUS 1 and 2 by the Soviets or a similar invention by the French in 1939. This doesn't give a range and bearing to the target, but rather lets you know something is out there and in the field of the detector. So, Hülsmeyer's invention would let a ship mounting one know that there was something in the fog ahead before it could be seen giving more time to slow down or make some evasive maneuver.
The M262 shot down about 550 Allied aircrafts, despite the German Luftwaffe beeing totally outnumbered, so they operated very sucsessful.

That's highly questionable. The 262 had between 300 and 500-ish kills credited to it, depending on source. That's roughly a 4 to 4.5 to 1 kill ratio. That's actually pretty low for a fighter aircraft.

The problem with the 262 was that by the beginning of 1944, it was a self-defeating aircraft. Even if it suffered ZERO actual combat losses, the Germans would have never been able to keep more than about 60 to 100 planes operational, if that. Between the 262's voracious fuel consumption (roughly triple that of a Fw 190 or Me 109), and the plane's general unreliability, keeping even 60 flying was beyond the Luftwaffe's capacity to maintain, repair, or replace non-combat losses alone.
In the very begining of Me262 operation the Allied profitated very much by shooting them down during the landing phase, later on this was spotted by putting Flacks in the landing path, so the early numbers are not representative.

Doesn't matter how the Allies countered them. They did. They also had their own jets in the pipeline to be put into service so the 262 would soon face something equal to itself with even better Allied jets to follow while their own industry struggled to produce almost anything.
BTW, The He177 also had remote controled guns.

Sour grapes. The control system on the 177 worked poorly. The gunner operating the turret was completely reliant on using tracers to try and walk the guns into the target. There was no fire control system. There was no offset for parallax errors. It might be described as amateurish compared to the system on the B-29.
The Allied sailers sunken by the Zaunkoenig sulry weren't laughing about it.... The decoy used as countermeassure slowed down allied Konvois conciderable and made them more vulnerable. Besides that, the countermeassure device (Foxer) produced intentionally a lot of noise which attracted German submarines.

Convoys advanced at a constant speed based on the merchant ships in it. There were slow and fast convoys. The slow ones were generally the target for U-boats. These advanced at 5 to 7 knots. Fast convoys did 9 to 11 knots. Ships capable of 15 or more knots generally steamed independently as they were safer doing that given their speed than being tied down in a convoy.

Also, as the war advanced, fewer and fewer Allied merchant ships were slow ones. US built Liberty ships could cruise at 9 knots easily while a Victory ship could cruise at 12.

The faster the ships went, the more difficult they became to target. U-boats did 4 to 6 knots submerged so they couldn't even really attack a convoy that way unless they lined up on its predicted location in advance and let the convoy run over it. This is why most Allied escorts formed a screen across the front of the convoy with interlocking sonar scanning.

Once the escorts had radar, attacking surfaced was suicide so that cut out even thinking about attacking a fast convoy at all.
The Geyer Torpedo was fielded before thewar ended, but propably never used. If was equiped with an activ echo sounder and made the Foxer useless. The MK24 Topedo was just a passive topedo, just like the Zaunkönig.

Another day late and Mark short invention for Germany.
Here we find a site (https://uboat.net/allies/technical/fido.htm) with much praise on the MK24, but the actual hit rate according to the same source was clearly below 10%,. Note, for obvious reasons, accoustic decoys could not be draged behind submarines.

One reason for that is the Allies, by 1943 could afford to expend ordinance on less than solid contacts. That is, they could attack probable targets aggressively even if there actually was nothing there. There was little or no downside to that for them.
 
What Hülsmeyer invented was more like a radio interference detector like RUS 1 and 2 by the Soviets or a similar invention by the French in 1939. This doesn't give a range and bearing to the target, but rather lets you know something is out there and in the field of the detector. So, Hülsmeyer's invention would let a ship mounting one know that there was something in the fog ahead before it could be seen giving more time to slow down or make some evasive maneuver.

He didn’t have any intention of hitting a target, the opposite was the case, his invention (made in 1904!) should avoid ship collision and that’s what Radar is still used for today.

That's highly questionable. The 262 had between 300 and 500-ish kills credited to it, depending on source. That's roughly a 4 to 4.5 to 1 kill ratio. That's actually pretty low for a fighter aircraft.

You can highly question every fact you don’t like, note that the Luftwaffe commanders preferred one 262 over ten FW190.

The problem with the 262 was that by the beginning of 1944, it was a self-defeating aircraft. Even if it suffered ZERO actual combat losses, the Germans would have never been able to keep more than about 60 to 100 planes operational, if that. Between the 262's voracious fuel consumption (roughly triple that of a Fw 190 or Me 109), and the plane's general unreliability, keeping even 60 flying was beyond the Luftwaffe's capacity to maintain, repair, or replace non-combat losses alone.

Same is true for the P80, the turbines disintegrated and it was by far the most dangerous airplane of the US at its time. This is not unecpected when you develop something completely new. Similar to the proplems with the M262, many pilots wrecked the engines with fas load changes, and it took time to adapt to a new technology.

Doesn't matter how the Allies countered them. They did. They also had their own jets in the pipeline to be put into service so the 262 would soon face something equal to itself with even better Allied jets to follow while their own industry struggled to produce almost anything.
Of course it mattered, new weapons need new tactics and the Germans had to go through the process. The P80 would have had the same problem, if the Americans had managed to finish it earlier, but they didn't. Talking about imaginary superior jets the Americans didn't have during WW2 doesn't help.
Sour grapes. The control system on the 177 worked poorly. The gunner operating the turret was completely reliant on using tracers to try and walk the guns into the target. There was no fire control system. There was no offset for parallax errors. It might be described as amateurish compared to the system on the B-29.

The B29 came years later, the carrier of the He 177 had already ended at this time. The 177 was the first fielded airplane with such a system and the Americans had several years to develop an improved version of that...

Convoys advanced at a constant speed based on the merchant ships in it. There were slow and fast convoys. The slow ones were generally the target for U-boats. These advanced at 5 to 7 knots. Fast convoys did 9 to 11 knots. Ships capable of 15 or more knots generally steamed independently as they were safer doing that given their speed than being tied down in a convoy.

Also, as the war advanced, fewer and fewer Allied merchant ships were slow ones. US built Liberty ships could cruise at 9 knots easily while a Victory ship could cruise at 12.

The faster the ships went, the more difficult they became to target. U-boats did 4 to 6 knots submerged so they couldn't even really attack a convoy that way unless they lined up on its predicted location in advance and let the convoy run over it. This is why most Allied escorts formed a screen across the front of the convoy with interlocking sonar scanning.

Once the escorts had radar, attacking surfaced was suicide so that cut out even thinking about attacking a fast convoy at all.

Quite a long text but I don’t get the point. Let’s just say, a convoy which is slower and produces loud noises has higher chances of being hit by a submarine.
Another day late and Mark short invention for Germany.


One reason for that is the Allies, by 1943 could afford to expend ordinance on less than solid contacts. That is, they could attack probable targets aggressively even if there actually was nothing there. There was little or no downside to that for them.
Quite a week argument, I don’t see any evidence for the M24 beeing superior than the Zaunkönig. The Geier on the other hand played in another league, it could not be distracted by a decoy because it’s active sonar aimed a the biggest target.
 
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That's P-80C cruising speed from wiki.

That's not what Francillon writes.
1944 for I-40.
1945 for J33.

And the Spiegel magazine once wrote the 262 was the first airplane which broke the sound barrier...

The production P80 which flew at the time of WW2 had an official top speed of just 702 km/h
 
You give English wikipedia as your source for the 707 km/h speed for P-80.
Extract from wiki P-80 entry, performance data fro P-80C:
Performance

  • Maximum speed: 594 mph (956 km/h, 516 kn) at sea level
  • Maximum speed: Mach 0.76
  • Cruise speed: 439 mph (707 km/h, 381 kn)
Angelucci/Bowers and Francillon give other numbers, see my reply #69.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...vision-had-prevailed.32473/page-2#post-942672

Maximum speed data for early P-80s from Lockheed Aircraft since 1913 by René J Francillon, Putnam 1982:
- XP-80: 502 mph / 808 km/h at 20,840 ft / 6,240 m - first prototype, de Havilland H.1B Goblin turbojet
- XP-80A: 553 mph / 890 km/h at 5,700 ft / 1,735 m - second and third prototypes, General Electric I-40 turbojet
- YP-80A: no data - service trials aircraft, reduced weight, General Electric J33-GE-11/ Allison J33-A-9 developed from I-40,
- P-80A: 558 mph / 898 km/h at sea level - J33 powered production aircraft

From The American Fighter by Enzo Angelucci and Peter M Bowers, Haynes 1987:
- P-80A: 492 mph / 792 km/h at 40,000 ft / 12,192 m
 
I rarely read Der Spiegel, so I refrain from passing judgment on its trustworthiness.
 
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