Wibault Twin Engined Fighter Project for 1938 Competition

[hesham]

Hi,

We found in our case this plan three seen a draft dated 13/12/1938, for a two-seater fighter, this is apapreil probablmenet the same program that Capra R 40, but the question that arises is why this project came out so early? device of the same program as the Breguet 820.

In fact I do not think this program lours hunter came out in 1938.

If you know more I'm interested.
We still note that apapreil should be equipped with the "legendary" Hispano engine type 89, which was not ready earlier or later than elsewhere.

This plan seems fairly well studied, but lil seems clear that the excesses of ^ dopubles would be very seriously increased. And he has an air of resembalance with Breguet project at the time.

http://aerophile.over-blog.com/
http://translate.googleusercontent....le.com&usg=ALkJrhgbnj1SwMYBwkO4bupXKMoZUdgIZg

 

[airman]

Reminds me Sncac-600 aka Hanriot NC-600 !
http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/sncac-600.php

 

[hesham]

And from my dears Justo Miranda and Jemiba,


that aircraft was submitted to 1938 competition for C.1 fighter,which the main tenders
were; Bloch BL-157,BL-1010 & BL-1011,Arsenal VB.10,VG.39 & VG.40,Dewoitine D.550,D.551
& D.552,Breguet Bre 820,Morane-Saulnier MS.460,CAPRA R.40 and Wibault.

 

[hesham]

And from my dears Justo Miranda and Jemiba,


that aircraft was submitted to 1938 competition for C.1 fighter,which the main tenders
were; Bloch BL-157,BL-1010 & BL-1011,Arsenal VB.10,VG.39 & VG.40,Dewoitine D.550,D.551
& D.552,Breguet Bre 820,Morane-Saulnier MS.460,CAPRA R.40 and Wibault.

Also Payen PA.300 was submitted to this contest;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1475.0.html

 

[redstar72]

that aircraft was submitted to 1938 competition for C.1 fighter

Hmm... but it looks to be 2-seat, so it's not "C.1"!

 

[hesham]

Hi Redstar72,


in the site,they said that; it was designed to same program as Breguet Bre 820,and in 1938
the two programs single seat and two seat merged to be one program.

 

[Jemiba]

With regards to The Trait d'Union, the Breguet Br.820 traces back to the Br.690/700 series and was intended
to be build as single, as well as two seaters. The reason for the single seat derivative may be one mentioned
in the "Airplane Five View Album" by Bernhard C.Klein, posted by Justo here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5313.msg42247.html#msg42247, #6,
But the contender for the C.1 competition quite probably would have been a single seat variant, structurally
and aerodynamically not really a great problem, I think.

 

[hesham]

great my dear Jemiba.

 

[hesham]

that aircraft was submitted to 1938 competition for C.1 fighter,which the main tenders
were; Bloch BL-157,BL-1010 & BL-1011,Arsenal VB.10,VG.39 & VG.40,Dewoitine D.550,D.551
& D.552,Breguet Bre 820,Morane-Saulnier MS.460,CAPRA R.40 and Wibault.

Sorry for this mistake,

that Project was intended for 1936/38 competition,and the main tenders were;

SNCAC NC.600,SNCASE SE.100,SE.101 & SE.102,Breguet Br.700,Caudron C.900,Payen Pa.310CB
& Pa.323AC,Delanne DL-120,Potez 670 & 671and CAPRA-40

 

[hesham]

WHAT??? Where did you get that notion from? And where did that designation even come from?
The "700" number looks like a Breguet designation, except the Bre.700 was a two-seat fighter proposal.
Wibault DID have a two-seat fighter project dated 1938, but he had stopped working with Breguet in 1936, so it can't be related.
I'll readily admit that this was an old post from 2008, but they continue to appear in Google searches, so this kind of post ought to be either edited or simply removed.

In the George Messier's site,he mentioned Wibault 700 or 7.00 as we know about beginning
of his new series,we have Wibault 1.00 or 100 as a transport aircraft,this patent was from 1948,
so I only suggest that designation,of course I am not sure,and it's nothing to do with Breguet.

 

[Stargazer]

it's nothing to do with Breguet.

AH! But I don't agree with you here! Because after looking up the Messier list, I find that the Wibault-Penhoët 700 study is dated 1936, not 1938...

• The name Wibault-Penhoët continued to be used until 1936 while under Breguet;
• Breguet models known to have involved Wibault are Types 66 (Bre 660/660M bomber and torpedo projects), 67 (Wibault 670 T transport), and 68 (Bre 680 transatlantic project);
• Wibault designed a two-seat fighter which looked remarkably similar to the Breguet Type 69 (drawing attached), making me wonder if he took part in the design of the Bre.690 prototype before leaving the company (the drawing we know is dated 1938, but that doesn't mean the project didn't exist before);
• The number 700 resembles no other Wibault designation, but definitely corresponds to the Breguet system (Type 70, first iteration).
• The Breguet Bre.700 C2, studied in 1940, was a two-seat fighter (photo below). Could it have been evolved from the earlier "Wibault-Penhoët 700" study of 1936?

I'll admit this is all purely hypothetical at this stage, but in my opinion, you can't be so sure that "it's got nothing to do with Breguet".

 

[hesham]

OK, I agree with you about Wibault 700,and about Breguet 701,

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/bréguet-combat-projects-and-prototypes.6486/#post-727685

 

[Stargazer]

OK, I agree with you about Wibault 700,and about Breguet 701

You're right, sorry... the model in the photo was the Bre. 701 reconnaissance version.
So it's very possible that the 700 fighter from which it derived was the same as the Wibault-Penhoët 700!

 

[Silencer1]

AH! But I don't agree with you here! Because after looking up the Messier list, I find that the Wibault-Penhoët 700 study is dated 1936, not 1938...

• The Breguet Bre.700 C2, studied in 1940, was a two-seat fighter (photo below). Could it have been evolved from the earlier "Wibault-Penhoët 700" study of 1936?

View attachment 784642

Please, clarify - you mentioned this photo, as image of Bregeut Bre.700 C2? This model, imho, depicts some kind of hi-speed passenger airliner or bomber? Too large even for two-seat fighter.

 

[Stargazer]

Please, clarify - you mentioned this photo, as image of Bregeut Bre.700 C2? This model, imho, depicts some kind of hi-speed passenger airliner or bomber? Too large even for two-seat fighter.

Sorry. As clarified by myself in the post right before yours, it's actually the Bre.701 reconnaissance version, not the Bre.700.
That being said, it derived from the Bre.700 fighter, so their dimensions must have been the same.

Post #1 in this thread shows the two-seat fighter Wibault proposal, which looks remarkably similar to the Breguet 690.
The Breguet 700 would have been in the same kind of category, size-wise.

 

[Silencer1]

Sorry. As clarified by myself in the post right before yours, it's actually the Bre.701 reconnaissance version, not the Bre.700.
That being said, it derived from the Bre.700 fighter, so their dimensions must have been the same.

Thank you for clarification!
And I'm still has impression, that photo of wind tunnel model represent aircraft, that is significantly larger, then Bre. 690 and its derivative. Engine nacelle diameter is less smaller in comparison to the fuselage cross section, then of conventional twin-engine fighters (just compare it to Potez 63, as other example). Moreover, high wing monoplane with strut braced wings, engines' nacelles suspended underneath, and small canopy - all these items reminds me some kind of high-speed bomber of Amiot 370 or LeO 451 size.