Why we can't build anything on time or budget

F-14D

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It isn't just the F-22/F-35., this was going on a long time ago. There are real lessons here;

"Learn, you will. Parallels you'll see".

http://www.dau.mil/pubscats/ATL%20Docs/Sep-Oct11/Ward.pdf
 
Just from my little corner of the big picture I'd guess it's two things mainly. 1. Politicians who cant decide from one week or the next if something will get cancelled (all that uncertainly gets EXPENSIVE both in time and dollars for all kinds of reasons). 2. The kind of corporate culture that is all about the quarterly bottom line at the expense of next year's bottom line. People get laid off the moment someone (usually cluelessly ensconced in their ivory tower) determines a position isn't needed anymore, and then when the error is discovered (after all the bonuses for cutting cost have been handed out of course) they grab the first warm body they can find that sorta fits the decription. "Have you ever worked on aircraft before?" "No, but I helped design a backhoe once." "Close enough, you're hired."
 
Consider the fact that even the Empire, with all its vast resources and the full power of the Dark Side, could only build one Death Star at a time. Building two at once was clearly more than it could handle. This reminds me of Norm Augustine’s famous prediction that at some point, the entire DoD budget would purchase just one aircraft for all the Services to share. The Empire apparently arrived at this singularity long, long ago. I’m not convinced this achievement represented real progress.
...
The bottom line: Death Stars are unaffordable. Whether we’re talking about a fictional galaxy far, far away or the all too real conditions here on Planet Earth, a Death Star program will cost more than it is worth. The investment on this scale is unsustainable and is completely lost when a wamp-rat-hunting farmboy takes a lucky shot. When one station represents the entire fleet (or even 5 percent of the fleet), we’ve put too many eggs in that basket and are well on our way to failing someone for the last time.
In random order:

DDG-1000
Seawolf SSN
EFV
A-12 Avenger II
V-22
F-22
F-35
XM2001 Crusader

Mr Ward has a point. Nothing to do with being overly ambitious?
 
Excellent reading this article is a ! Is the F-16 the Air Force R2-D2 ? then the B-2 would be the Death Star ?
 
one rule in this game is: How complex the system becomes, R&D need more and more Time and Money
Another more Dangerous real threat for a complex Program is: Politics

Bad example: Eurofighter
it start back in 1983 as the Future European Fighter Aircraft (actually back in 1972 and again in 1979, but the efforts died by politic)
the first 3 years program had political fight, France want a carrier-capable version and demanded the leading role.
1986 France left program and start with the Dassault Rafale program, the Program cost were evaluated 7 billion pound
in 1990 the complexity of the aircraft's radar, Combat computer and fly system and there synchronization, became major problem.
1991 the Germany reunification caused political delay with proposal of withdraw Germany from the project
it take until 1994 for the maiden flight of the Eurofighter
1998 Program cost reach 17 billion pound
2003 the Eurofighter is put in service (20 year after program start)

Good example: Grumman F6F Hellcat
program start June 1941
the maiden flight june 1942
put in service Oktober 1942 (15 months after program start)
Grumman produce 11 Hellcat per Day until 1945
the Hellcat has still the record of 66530 combat sorties with 5163 kills and dropped 6503 tons of bombs...
 
Ha, Darth Vader as project manager. I have met a few of them, and they still did not get things done...!

My day job is research into O&S cost forecasting of combat aircraft projects for the US DoD. The simple answer is 'it depends on the thing being built, who is building it, and how they do it, plus whether you can understand them/it'. And that is ignoring the politics.

An even simpler answer is that timescales and costs are estimates based on limited information. The problem is when they become seen as holy writ, not estimates.

Now to turn that into my final report for next week!
 
Arjen said:
DDG-1000
Seawolf SSN
EFV
A-12 Avenger II
V-22
F-22
F-35
XM2001 Crusader
'scuse me. "Ambitious"? Give me a break. They only seem ambitious because our expectations have been lowered so far. If you want ambitious, how about the Blackbird, XB-70, Project Pluto, and Apollo for starters? They didn't have the luxury of just reaching to the shelf for the "how-to" text and they STILL got it done in what would seem today astonishingly short times.
 
Mike, have you seen the hand written notes at Brooklands where someone was calculating the required time to develop the P.1103 for the brochure?

Very much a SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) along the lines of "Hunter took xxx man hours, add some percentage for the added complexity, add fudge factor..."
 
Ambitious"? Give me a break.
All these programs have been described as (potential) world-beaters, able to tackle anything the rest of the world cares to throw at them.

Not ambitious, then. Fine. Beg to differ.
 
Arjen said:
Ambitious"? Give me a break.
All these programs have been described as (potential) world-beaters, able to tackle anything the rest of the world cares to throw at them.

Not ambitious, then. Fine. Beg to differ.

Nothing personal, it's just that by comparision to other things done in the past some of these are a far stretch from ambitious.
 
No offence taken.

The older projects represented breakthroughs in aerodynamics and materials, many new projects also have to deal with systems that are orders of magnitude more complex than the ones used before. The advances made by the XB-70, Apollo and Pluto were obvious to the most casual of observers, the systems in new projects less so. Add to that new ways of organising production: ambition jumps right at you.

Modern day projects make me wonder about the people involved. Looking at it one way, I'm amazed at the optimism with which projects are undertaken, in the face of drawn-out schedules and cost overruns. Hope is a wonderful thing. Or should I say faith? On the other hand, I'm appalled by the utter disconnection from reality, the same mistakes being made again and again. McNamara jumps to mind, suddenly.

Now, if people really understood how to deal with these human characteristics, they just might put that understanding to good use in better projects. Come to think of it, I fear some people already do, and are making filthy amounts of money with it.
 
Arjen said:
No offence taken.

The older projects represented breakthroughs in aerodynamics and materials, many new projects also have to deal with systems that are orders of magnitude more complex than the ones used before. The advances made by the XB-70, Apollo and Pluto were obvious to the most casual of observers, the systems in new projects less so.
Consider that for that the four mentioned (Blackbird, XB-70, Apollo, and Pluto) they had to invent new propulsion systems, materials, aerodynamic concepts, and gain much of the knowledge that today's projects can find in books. Sure, things like the F-35 and DDG-1000 are complex from a systems integration perspective (though considering what they had to work with in the form of analytical tools back in the day the differences might not be that great as would appear at a glance) but, for the most part, they're not having to invent new materials, methods of propulsion, fuels, nor are they pushing the envelope in aerodynamics, manufacturing, or performance.
 
So, what else causes those projects to take so long or fail entirely? I'm still saying sheer complexity.
 
I have some firsthand experience with aerospace programs and dabble in writing the history of them as well. In my opinion, the basic problem with most programs that overrun schedule and budget is that the winning contractor has to way over-commit, usually but not always knowingly, to a combination of performance, capability, schedule, and budget requirements.* A case in point, Northrop-Grumman competing with General Dynamics-McDonnell for the Navy's ATA program: the team that arguably knew the most about the program, N-G, refused to agree with the government's unrealistic expectations, and "lost" the competition for the A-12. The Comanche program is another example of a contractor team agreeing to a nonnegotiable set of fantastic requirements to win a competition. The VH-71 presidential helicopter is another, although my understanding is the requirements got even more ridiculous after contract award. The procuring authorities are complicit in these fiascoes, either from ignorance of the degree of difficulty, the presumption that the contractor will somehow pull a rabbit out of a hat, or the belief that the contract protects them from responsibility for signing up to an undoable program.

There is a Vader aspect to this, both in the competition and the subsequent management of the program. One clue is when your well-reasoned statement based on hard-earned knowledge and experience that something is too hard is met with the response, "A good engineer/manager could get it done; if you say you can't, you must not be a good engineer/manager and I'll replace you with one who says he can."

Some people think McNamara was an idiot. Those who cite the F-111 program as an example conveniently forget that he was also responsible, to pretty much the same degree, for the Vought A-7, which was a joint service program with a fixed price development and production contract. The Corsair II's first flight, development, and qualification were completed ahead of schedule; the cost overrun was insignificant; and the performance guarantees, with only one exception that wasn't critical, met. What was the difference between it and the programs that suffered schedule and cost overruns? For one thing, it was not a great leap forward in speed (in the very beginning, it was to be supersonic) or systems capability (mostly off the shelf stuff) and therefore within the design state of the art. Better is the enemy of good enough.

The optimism of engineers and their drive to meet a challenge can also be a problem. When I was a boy, I read a short science-fiction story that made an impact on me. It concerned two warring worlds that finally agreed to a nonlethal competition to determine which was superior. Each would show the other its most advanced technology. Each would have one year to duplicate and demonstrate the opponent's capability. At the end of the year, both were successful in doing so and also astonished that the other had been able to duplicate their technology, because in both cases their challenge demonstration was faked.

Another trick to a successful program? Don't sign up for one that is over constrained, over managed, and under budgeted by the government. Ed Heinemann made weight on the A3D and A4D programs in part because he had a contract and a working arrangement with BuAer that allowed him a lot of latitude in not meeting every specification requirement. My impression is that some of Kelly Johnson's successes benefited from the same approach.

*Marketers and operators are a dangerous combination in this regard. The former want to sell a program; the latter, the highest possible probability of success in their mission, particularly if it involves getting shot at. Between the two of them, particularly when the marketers from two or more competitors are vying to outdo each other in capability claims, a set of requirements is established independent of the time and money available for the program.
 
Arjen said:
So, what else causes those projects to take so long or fail entirely? I'm still saying sheer complexity.

Apollo was plenty complex. Had to design and build the crawler, rockets, LEM, engines, etc. Oh, and land on the friggin' moon. And drive a car on the moon.
 
Reply #15 offers plausible explanation.
 

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