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Why German "wunderwaffen" are often overhyped in documentaries?

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sgeorges4

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the war?

I'm wondering if it's make just for making more audience because I think it's where some Wehraboo came from .

The " mean that for me wunderwaffen wouldn't have impact because the ally could simply eitherbomb the factory where these wunderwaffen where being produced or making counter measure who aren't obligated to be overenginered+ they would've lost anyway because of their ressoruces/logisitic/industrial constraint problem .
 

TomcatViP

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Because the real wunderwaffen (the free men, the liberty ship and the Mustang) have already been overhyped?
 

marauder2048

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Germany's highly mechanized coal industry feeding the synthetic fuel plants was a real wunderwaffe but
doesn't make for riveting TV.
 

Iron Felix

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the war?

I'm wondering if it's make just for making more audience because I think it's where some Wehraboo came from .

The " mean that for me wunderwaffen wouldn't have impact because the ally could simply eitherbomb the factory where these wunderwaffen where being produced or making counter measure who aren't obligated to be overenginered+ they would've lost anyway because of their ressoruces/logisitic/industrial constraint problem .
Actually, this problem has political implications.
1. Hidden pro-nazi journalists, blogers and talkers. "Nazi was first", "Nazi was best" and other. This is a not propaganda of German science, it's a true Nazi propaganda, created in 1930th.
2. Anti-allies, and, most, anti-soviet propaganda. "Soviet vs Nazi - it was a bloody NKVD versus modern science", "Soviet actually lost, losses 1 to 10". This unscientific words, today, also, talks from TV. And, strange, but, Russian Ren-TV channel actually a Wunderwaffe propaganda, "Project "Bell"", "Haunebu" and other - with UFO, bigfoot, bloody NKVD, bloody Rockfeller, reptiloids and other speculations. They were awarded a antipremia, from Russian government, "For the dissemination of anti-scientific information". Also, today, modern nazi and fascists, from Russia, Ukraine and other post-Soviet countryes, talks "Pobedobesie" - "Victory-rabies", and use "facts", about "Stupid Soviet and Great Nazi", "Nazi was a good, all war crimes in WW2 on East front - it was a Soviet" (it's true WW2 nazi propaganda, "You see this deads? It's Red! We protect you for Rote pest") and other.
And, I don't approve of a lie, in all countryes.
Unfortunately, modern media controlled by politicans, and cotrupt storytellers.
...
I read a lot of information about science in XVI-XX century, about war projects. And, I can talk - nazi science wasn't unique, this is a standart European science, powerful, but, not "Uber alles". Many giant projects in WW2, and, plan to realise of P.1000 tank, H-44 battleship and other - it's a Hitler's megalomania. "I need a HUGE tank, HUGE ship, HUGE cannon". Russians and American also projected many huge projects, but, talks, "We need EFFECTIVE weapon".
Also, nazi used a many documents, from France, Russia, Belgium, etc. I have a many information about true Wunderwaffe from Russia, France, USA, English and other. But, I can’t talk about everything in this post.
My central theme - Russian empire, and, I can talk about Tsarists wunderwaffe, but, in other countryes projected a many analogs.
Interesting ideas, projects, experiments in Russian Empire:
- Generator, worked by deformation of iron-roads under trains - ~1910th
- Pilotless programmed train, with automatic stop system in front of an obstacle - ~1914
- Bio-produced fuel - ~WW1 (Russian Makhonin experimented in France in emigation)
- Many torpedo constructions - Distance-operated torpedo with cable (1860th) and radio (Pilchikov, 1898), homing "fire and forget" torpedo (Pilchikov, 1898), rocket-torpedo (Shpakovskiy, late XIX century, Tihomirov, 1914, Danilchenko, 1914, and other)
- Psi-weapon (Behterev, Barchenko and other; yes, it was a seriously works)
- Anabiosis (Bahmetyev)
- Ray gun - many projects, in WW1 and in pre-WW1 period. Most famous - Filippov weapon.
- Walking machines - steam horse (late XIX century), "battle self-propeller" (1917)
- Rail gun - Benardos, 1889, "Powerful cannon on armour-vessels, with generation on steam machine", Podolskiy and Yampolskiy, 1915, "magnet-fugal cannon".
- Primitive mechanical "scype" (Gorin, 1903-1905)
And other many projects. And, Russian science was a standart European science, not "Uber alles". But, about this and other projects not talks. Talks about only nazi projects. V-2, night vision, jet aircraft - ok. Not unique, but, it's true progress in military technologies. But, "Wunderwaffe" use about all Third Reich projects. Pz.V - VIII - Wunderwaffe, but, actually, it's standart tanks, and many Allies tanks was a more effective than German "Zoo". E-series tanks - yes, unification, and... This projects more Wunderwaffe than analogical projects? In USSR in 1940-1941 projected A-43 and A-44 tanks, actually - tank familyes with good unifications, and, soviet A-44 was a true MBT. German assault rifles - Mkb.42, MP-43, StG-44, StG-45, MP-45, SpZ and other also named a "Wunderwaffe", but, to 1942 created analogs, Fedorov, Rybeirolles, Burton and other, in WW1 and Interbellum. In USSR in pre-WW2 period Tokarev and other engineers works at .351 WSL full-auto carbines, and, projected new cartridges - 6.5x40 Fedorov and other. This works stoped in 1941-1943, and restarted in 1943. And, to 1944, in USSR created full analogs of German guns. I haven't data about American and British military projects, but, in USA Remington produced full-auto rifles in different calibres. Actually, many German weapons named "Wunderwaffe", because this guns was a "Deutch", but not a "Wunder".
 

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A very likely source of the "Nazis made wonder weapons" was the fact that some proud people got *spanked* by the Luftwaffe and the Wermacht. Only a few years before WWII, Germany wasn't even a second-rate power; it was a toothless wreck. And all of a sudden it kicked substantial ass from France to Russia. How else to explain this other than:
1) The Nazis were in touch with occult dark forces... demons, Cthulhu, witches, aliens, whatever.
2) The Nazis has somehow tapped into the secrets of the universe and thus created technologies that were vastly beyond what Our Boys had.

The reality was that early on the Nazis had some okay tech, a serious commitment to cause, a *lot* of sheer dumb luck, and some enemies who were over-confident, obsoletely provisioned and just kinda dumb. The Soviets/Stalin had whacked much of the officer corps, because that's the sort of thing morons do when they gain power.

And so in the time since, the trauma of losing so badly to a truly evil force has made a lot of people kid lose their minds and come up with excuses.
 

Iron Felix

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A very likely source of the "Nazis made wonder weapons" was the fact that some proud people got *spanked* by the Luftwaffe and the Wermacht. Only a few years before WWII, Germany wasn't even a second-rate power; it was a toothless wreck. And all of a sudden it kicked substantial ass from France to Russia. How else to explain this other than:
1) The Nazis were in touch with occult dark forces... demons, Cthulhu, witches, aliens, whatever.
2) The Nazis has somehow tapped into the secrets of the universe and thus created technologies that were vastly beyond what Our Boys had.

The reality was that early on the Nazis had some okay tech, a serious commitment to cause, a *lot* of sheer dumb luck, and some enemies who were over-confident, obsoletely provisioned and just kinda dumb. The Soviets/Stalin had whacked much of the officer corps, because that's the sort of thing morons do when they gain power.

And so in the time since, the trauma of losing so badly to a truly evil force has made a lot of people kid lose their minds and come up with excuses.
About Stalin and officer corps - many officers was a FIRED, not a executed or exiled. Reasons - drunkenness, molestation and othet violations. And, to empty seats came reserve officers.
Luck of officers in 1941 due to army increase, from 1.5 millions in 1937-1938 to 5 millions to 22 june 1941.
Mith about nazi wunderwaffe created in Third Reich, and reincarnated in USA in 1950th, by journalists. To Russia, this mith infiltrated in "Rebuilding" era, 1986 and later.
 

sgeorges4

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Also,I wonder if it's for making the ally look more heroix but I think it's a double-edged thing because some might as well believe it's show that germany could've won the war or have superiority.
 

galgot

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A very likely source of the "Nazis made wonder weapons" was the fact that some proud people got *spanked* by the Luftwaffe and the Wermacht. Only a few years before WWII, Germany wasn't even a second-rate power; it was a toothless wreck. And all of a sudden it kicked substantial ass from France to Russia. How else to explain this other than:
1) The Nazis were in touch with occult dark forces... demons, Cthulhu, witches, aliens, whatever.
2) The Nazis has somehow tapped into the secrets of the universe and thus created technologies that were vastly beyond what Our Boys had.

The reality was that early on the Nazis had some okay tech, a serious commitment to cause, a *lot* of sheer dumb luck, and some enemies who were over-confident, obsoletely provisioned and just kinda dumb. The Soviets/Stalin had whacked much of the officer corps, because that's the sort of thing morons do when they gain power.

And so in the time since, the trauma of losing so badly to a truly evil force has made a lot of people kid lose their minds and come up with excuses.
I agree with that. But the funny thing is that you see "Wunderwaffe" thing in the US too, when the US hardly got "spanked" by the nazis… it’s more the nazis that got "spanked" by the US.
 

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Its an annoying trait that spreads to all German weapons. Watching a recent documentary the other day, Abandoned Engineering, the Type 34 destroyer was described as the most biggest and powerful ever, speeds of 40kts etc. etc. and then in the next breath pointing out (more correctly) it was unseaworthy due to its 5.9in main armament weighing the bows down, with poor stability and unreliable high-pressure boilers. Well that hardly sounds like a superweapon to me, and the Type 34's rated maxmium speed was 36kts, somewhat less than the claimed 40kts, let alone the 45kts the programme claims Georg Thiele made in her final beaching run off Narvik. The programme did not need to hype up the ship before listing its faults, just tell it like it is.

I agree with Scott, I think stems from the '1930s Appeasement' trope, the repetitive and inaccurate mantra that Britain, France and the US had disarmed and had outdated equipment and then suddenly Germany rearms with far superior technology that won them the day in 1940. So by giving all the equipment in Germany's arsenal in 1939-40 the status of super-weapons means that the successor equipment like Tiger tanks, Type XXI submarines etc. logically must be "wonderwaffen". The truth is that there is no objective assessment in the mainstream media and these distortions are dishonest.
 

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About Stalin and officer corps - many officers was a FIRED, not a executed or exiled.
Ahem:

"The Case of Military was a secret trial, unlike the Moscow Show Trials. It is traditionally considered one of the key trials of the Great Purge. Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevsky and the senior military officers Iona Yakir, Ieronim Uborevich, Robert Eideman, August Kork, Vitovt Putna, Boris Feldman and Vitaly Primakov (as well as Yakov Gamarnik, who committed suicide before the investigations began) were accused of anti-Soviet conspiracy and sentenced to death; they were executed on the night of June 11 to 12, 1937, immediately after the verdict delivered by a Special Session (специальное судебное присутствие) of the Supreme Court of the USSR. "

Mith about nazi wunderwaffe created in Third Reich, and reincarnated in USA in 1950th, by journalists. To Russia, this mith infiltrated in "Rebuilding" era, 1986 and later.
Stories of "Wunderwaffe" precede the 1950's. Oddly enough, hypersonic rockets falling without notice out of a clear blue sky and evaporating half a city block in London used to be the sort of thing that caused people to wonder if something unusual was going on. As the Allies began pushing into Germany and finding evidence of some of the projects the Germans were working on - often half-heartedly, or with no real chance of success - ill-informed scraps of info filtered out leading to some bad reporting. Witness the "Sun Gun" stories about the Germans having mile-wide orbiting mirrors to be used to scorch whole cities. These reports were based on very, very pre-war Oberth writings, probably mis-heard stuff found by people who hadn't read or previously heard of Oberth.

Also there were the reports of the Me 262 and Me 163; nether of thse was magical, but they were *major* improvements in performance over aircraft such as the Mustang and the Typhoon. Aeronautical experts were not overly surprisd by the advent of German jets, but the average pilot or waist gunner *was.* And seeing something you can't explain, especially something you can't explain that is clearly trying to kill you, can lead you to exagerate.

There also *seems* to be a difference in tone when looking at "Wunderwaffen." In the US, it *seems* to be more like "hey, look at this neato thing the Nazis had," while in Europe, especially eastern Europe, it's a bit more desperate. Which makes sense given how easily the Wermacht steamrolled the region in the early days, only driven back by throwing wave after wave of utterly expendable serfs at the Nazi killbots until the killbots reached their preset kill limits and shut down.
 

Orionblamblam

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Its an annoying trait that spreads to all German weapons. ... The programme did not need to hype up the ship before listing its faults, just tell it like it is.
It's not just German superweapons that get that treatment. Look at the otherwise excellent "Walking With Dinosaurs" series: the critters were impressive enough, but they decided to "upscale" them. The Liopleurodon was about 10 meters long, but the show depicted them reaching something like 25. It's common to make something seem bigger and more dangerous than it is. Hell, just look at the news these days...
 

edwest

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the war?

I'm wondering if it's make just for making more audience because I think it's where some Wehraboo came from .

The " mean that for me wunderwaffen wouldn't have impact because the ally could simply eitherbomb the factory where these wunderwaffen where being produced or making counter measure who aren't obligated to be overenginered+ they would've lost anyway because of their ressoruces/logisitic/industrial constraint problem .
Actually, this problem has political implications.
1. Hidden pro-nazi journalists, blogers and talkers. "Nazi was first", "Nazi was best" and other. This is a not propaganda of German science, it's a true Nazi propaganda, created in 1930th.
2. Anti-allies, and, most, anti-soviet propaganda. "Soviet vs Nazi - it was a bloody NKVD versus modern science", "Soviet actually lost, losses 1 to 10". This unscientific words, today, also, talks from TV. And, strange, but, Russian Ren-TV channel actually a Wunderwaffe propaganda, "Project "Bell"", "Haunebu" and other - with UFO, bigfoot, bloody NKVD, bloody Rockfeller, reptiloids and other speculations. They were awarded a antipremia, from Russian government, "For the dissemination of anti-scientific information". Also, today, modern nazi and fascists, from Russia, Ukraine and other post-Soviet countryes, talks "Pobedobesie" - "Victory-rabies", and use "facts", about "Stupid Soviet and Great Nazi", "Nazi was a good, all war crimes in WW2 on East front - it was a Soviet" (it's true WW2 nazi propaganda, "You see this deads? It's Red! We protect you for Rote pest") and other.
And, I don't approve of a lie, in all countryes.
Unfortunately, modern media controlled by politicans, and cotrupt storytellers.
...
I read a lot of information about science in XVI-XX century, about war projects. And, I can talk - nazi science wasn't unique, this is a standart European science, powerful, but, not "Uber alles". Many giant projects in WW2, and, plan to realise of P.1000 tank, H-44 battleship and other - it's a Hitler's megalomania. "I need a HUGE tank, HUGE ship, HUGE cannon". Russians and American also projected many huge projects, but, talks, "We need EFFECTIVE weapon".
Also, nazi used a many documents, from France, Russia, Belgium, etc. I have a many information about true Wunderwaffe from Russia, France, USA, English and other. But, I can’t talk about everything in this post.
My central theme - Russian empire, and, I can talk about Tsarists wunderwaffe, but, in other countryes projected a many analogs.
Interesting ideas, projects, experiments in Russian Empire:
- Generator, worked by deformation of iron-roads under trains - ~1910th
- Pilotless programmed train, with automatic stop system in front of an obstacle - ~1914
- Bio-produced fuel - ~WW1 (Russian Makhonin experimented in France in emigation)
- Many torpedo constructions - Distance-operated torpedo with cable (1860th) and radio (Pilchikov, 1898), homing "fire and forget" torpedo (Pilchikov, 1898), rocket-torpedo (Shpakovskiy, late XIX century, Tihomirov, 1914, Danilchenko, 1914, and other)
- Psi-weapon (Behterev, Barchenko and other; yes, it was a seriously works)
- Anabiosis (Bahmetyev)
- Ray gun - many projects, in WW1 and in pre-WW1 period. Most famous - Filippov weapon.
- Walking machines - steam horse (late XIX century), "battle self-propeller" (1917)
- Rail gun - Benardos, 1889, "Powerful cannon on armour-vessels, with generation on steam machine", Podolskiy and Yampolskiy, 1915, "magnet-fugal cannon".
- Primitive mechanical "scype" (Gorin, 1903-1905)
And other many projects. And, Russian science was a standart European science, not "Uber alles". But, about this and other projects not talks. Talks about only nazi projects. V-2, night vision, jet aircraft - ok. Not unique, but, it's true progress in military technologies. But, "Wunderwaffe" use about all Third Reich projects. Pz.V - VIII - Wunderwaffe, but, actually, it's standart tanks, and many Allies tanks was a more effective than German "Zoo". E-series tanks - yes, unification, and... This projects more Wunderwaffe than analogical projects? In USSR in 1940-1941 projected A-43 and A-44 tanks, actually - tank familyes with good unifications, and, soviet A-44 was a true MBT. German assault rifles - Mkb.42, MP-43, StG-44, StG-45, MP-45, SpZ and other also named a "Wunderwaffe", but, to 1942 created analogs, Fedorov, Rybeirolles, Burton and other, in WW1 and Interbellum. In USSR in pre-WW2 period Tokarev and other engineers works at .351 WSL full-auto carbines, and, projected new cartridges - 6.5x40 Fedorov and other. This works stoped in 1941-1943, and restarted in 1943. And, to 1944, in USSR created full analogs of German guns. I haven't data about American and British military projects, but, in USA Remington produced full-auto rifles in different calibres. Actually, many German weapons named "Wunderwaffe", because this guns was a "Deutch", but not a "Wunder".

Politics again? Please. The war is over. The Germans lost. There are only a handful of multinational corporations in control of the media today. This was not the case prior to the year 2000.

I study the history of invention and I appreciate the examples, but the average person has no say about what appears on TV or what subjects are covered.

During the Cold War, the United States, and its Allies, spoke very carefully about Russia. After all, our ally became our enemy before the end of World War II. They were only our ally of convenience, nothing more. As far as Russian technology, only bits and pieces in English. Otherwise, a researcher needs to read other languages. And books in Russian? How to get them? A few requests were made here with no response
 

edwest

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About Stalin and officer corps - many officers was a FIRED, not a executed or exiled.
Ahem:

"The Case of Military was a secret trial, unlike the Moscow Show Trials. It is traditionally considered one of the key trials of the Great Purge. Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevsky and the senior military officers Iona Yakir, Ieronim Uborevich, Robert Eideman, August Kork, Vitovt Putna, Boris Feldman and Vitaly Primakov (as well as Yakov Gamarnik, who committed suicide before the investigations began) were accused of anti-Soviet conspiracy and sentenced to death; they were executed on the night of June 11 to 12, 1937, immediately after the verdict delivered by a Special Session (специальное судебное присутствие) of the Supreme Court of the USSR. "

Mith about nazi wunderwaffe created in Third Reich, and reincarnated in USA in 1950th, by journalists. To Russia, this mith infiltrated in "Rebuilding" era, 1986 and later.
Stories of "Wunderwaffe" precede the 1950's. Oddly enough, hypersonic rockets falling without notice out of a clear blue sky and evaporating half a city block in London used to be the sort of thing that caused people to wonder if something unusual was going on. As the Allies began pushing into Germany and finding evidence of some of the projects the Germans were working on - often half-heartedly, or with no real chance of success - ill-informed scraps of info filtered out leading to some bad reporting. Witness the "Sun Gun" stories about the Germans having mile-wide orbiting mirrors to be used to scorch whole cities. These reports were based on very, very pre-war Oberth writings, probably mis-heard stuff found by people who hadn't read or previously heard of Oberth.

Also there were the reports of the Me 262 and Me 163; nether of thse was magical, but they were *major* improvements in performance over aircraft such as the Mustang and the Typhoon. Aeronautical experts were not overly surprisd by the advent of German jets, but the average pilot or waist gunner *was.* And seeing something you can't explain, especially something you can't explain that is clearly trying to kill you, can lead you to exagerate.

There also *seems* to be a difference in tone when looking at "Wunderwaffen." In the US, it *seems* to be more like "hey, look at this neato thing the Nazis had," while in Europe, especially eastern Europe, it's a bit more desperate. Which makes sense given how easily the Wermacht steamrolled the region in the early days, only driven back by throwing wave after wave of utterly expendable serfs at the Nazi killbots until the killbots reached their preset kill limits and shut down.

There is no excuse for exaggeration today. B.I.O.S and C.I.O.S. reports from 1945 and 1946 exist. A lot of classified material has been declassified, but a significant fraction still has not. I'm not interested in sensationalism. Facts are always best. Assessments by experts are best. And cross-checking other sources is also good. The Germans fielded some very good hardware and in logical order. A researcher today has to look at the infrastructure that could be exploited in wartime Europe by the Germans in Czechoslovakia and France, for example. Who knows much about the Skoda Works? The V-1 was the world's first cruise missile used in combat, followed by the V-2 which could not be shot down and which traveled at over 3,000 miles per hour. The US captured a Mach 4.4 wind tunnel. The Germans obviously dealt with and solved the aerodynamic heating problem. They used an insulating material they called "glass wool."

The great myth is the idea that the Germans were working on things half-heartedly or with no chance of success should be buried. I'm sure pilots were a bit surprised to see an Me 163 pull into the bomber stream. I have seen a period photo of a German helicopter with a cable hovering over a Bf 109 resting in a field. Most average people have never seen a book titled Helicopters of the Third Reich by Jean-Christophe Carbonel and Steve Coates.

Please understand what you are writing about before commenting on it. The "sun gun" was a real project. And the British and American press were tightly controlled. In the US, the Office of War Information could persuade US newspapers to not print certain things. They had a responsibility to their fellow citizens and their country. And to avoid giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Your strange and odd depiction of combat is disgraceful. All soldiers were fighting for their country. The Russian soldier had family like the rest.
 

Iron Felix

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The Case of Military was a secret trial, unlike the Moscow Show Trials. It is traditionally considered one of the key trials of the Great Purge. Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevsky and the senior military officers Iona Yakir, Ieronim Uborevich, Robert Eideman, August Kork, Vitovt Putna, Boris Feldman and Vitaly Primakov (as well as Yakov Gamarnik, who committed suicide before the investigations began) were accused of anti-Soviet conspiracy and sentenced to death; they were executed on the night of June 11 to 12, 1937, immediately after the verdict delivered by a Special Session (специальное судебное присутствие) of the Supreme Court of the USSR
I said, "MANY" officers, not all.
I know about executions, but it wasn't a absolutely. And, Ezhov was a true killer, in Beria period was executed a many maniacs from old NKVD.
Also, trotskists in NKVD in early 30th fabricated many cases on stalinists. It was a planned programm about coup in USSR. This period in Soviet history, maybe, was a most difficult. And, Tukhachevskiy could take the place of Stalin. But, German think - "Peaceful Stalin or warlike Tukhachevskiy?... Tukhachevskiy more dangerous...", and they showed Stalin compromising evidence on Tukhachevsky.
...
I know about reaction of British press about German weapons. About battle between "Hood" and "Bismark" ("German superbattleship..."), V-1 and V-2 rockets ("Barbarian weapon..."). Also, I know about "Tigerphobia" in US army at Western front. But, these messages were a) a response to real threats, b) rare. And, true "explosion" pf this theme - it's a post-war USA. And, fabricated mith about "wonder-science", about "super-technologies", and fabricated many projects, H-45 "Fuhrer" battleship, different UFO with anti-gravity engines, project "Bell" and other.
 

edwest

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I have seen the fabricated stories. However, there are many intelligence reports written during and after the war, right after. Unless someone knows how to stop nonsense on TV and in books, it will continue. I don't like it.

P.S.
Where can I get books in Russian?
 

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My 2 cents worth is that it’s because there a market for it (and money in it).
The like of the History Channel and Discovery know the’ll attract viewers using this trope.
As for why that’s the case I think many thesis could be written....
The “documentary” show Hunting Hitler is a prime example of this type of shoddy fantasy-as-documentary content that makes my blood boil. Or documentaries that attest to the supposed reality of “the Bell”.
And actual historians appear in Hunting Hitler....
 

edwest

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Do these 'actual historians' in Hunting Hitler have any documents to show or do they just talk? I don't know since I don't watch that sort of thing.
 

edwest

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Ist verboten! You missed the rules upgrade?
 

edwest

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The last time I tried to post something official, the alarm went off, forum rules were upgraded, etc. I think I heard "If you post something like that again, you will be taken out and " I missed the last few words. I'm sure it was metaphorical... I think.
 

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About Stalin and officer corps - many officers was a FIRED, not a executed or exiled.
Ahem:

"The Case of Military was a secret trial, unlike the Moscow Show Trials. It is traditionally considered one of the key trials of the Great Purge. Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevsky and the senior military officers Iona Yakir, Ieronim Uborevich, Robert Eideman, August Kork, Vitovt Putna, Boris Feldman and Vitaly Primakov (as well as Yakov Gamarnik, who committed suicide before the investigations began) were accused of anti-Soviet conspiracy and sentenced to death; they were executed on the night of June 11 to 12, 1937, immediately after the verdict delivered by a Special Session (специальное судебное присутствие) of the Supreme Court of the USSR. "

Mith about nazi wunderwaffe created in Third Reich, and reincarnated in USA in 1950th, by journalists. To Russia, this mith infiltrated in "Rebuilding" era, 1986 and later.
Stories of "Wunderwaffe" precede the 1950's. Oddly enough, hypersonic rockets falling without notice out of a clear blue sky and evaporating half a city block in London used to be the sort of thing that caused people to wonder if something unusual was going on. As the Allies began pushing into Germany and finding evidence of some of the projects the Germans were working on - often half-heartedly, or with no real chance of success - ill-informed scraps of info filtered out leading to some bad reporting. Witness the "Sun Gun" stories about the Germans having mile-wide orbiting mirrors to be used to scorch whole cities. These reports were based on very, very pre-war Oberth writings, probably mis-heard stuff found by people who hadn't read or previously heard of Oberth.

Also there were the reports of the Me 262 and Me 163; nether of thse was magical, but they were *major* improvements in performance over aircraft such as the Mustang and the Typhoon. Aeronautical experts were not overly surprisd by the advent of German jets, but the average pilot or waist gunner *was.* And seeing something you can't explain, especially something you can't explain that is clearly trying to kill you, can lead you to exagerate.

There also *seems* to be a difference in tone when looking at "Wunderwaffen." In the US, it *seems* to be more like "hey, look at this neato thing the Nazis had," while in Europe, especially eastern Europe, it's a bit more desperate. Which makes sense given how easily the Wermacht steamrolled the region in the early days, only driven back by throwing wave after wave of utterly expendable serfs at the Nazi killbots until the killbots reached their preset kill limits and shut down.
Size


Size comparison based on the largest known specimen

Liopleurodon ferox first came to the public attention in 1999 when it was featured in an episode of the BBC television series Walking with Dinosaurs, which depicted it as an enormous 25 m (82 ft) long predator; this was based on very fragmentary remains (see "Monster of Aramberri"), and considered to be an exaggeration for Liopleurodon,[10] with the calculations of 20-metre specimens generally considered dubious.[11]

Estimating the size of pliosaurs is difficult because not much is known of their postcranial anatomy. The palaeontologist L. B. Tarlo suggested that their total body length can be estimated from the length of their skull which he claimed was typically one-seventh of the former measurement, applying this ratio to L. ferox suggests that the largest known specimen was a little over 10 m (33 ft) while a more typical size range would be from 5 to 7 m (16 to 23 ft).[10] The body mass has been estimated at 1 and 1.7 t (2,200 and 3,700 lb) for the lengths 4.8 and 7 m (16 and 23 ft) respectively.[12]

However, new research on Kronosaurus[10] and the finding of a complete skeleton of L. ferox show that their skulls were actually about one-fifth of their total body length,[1] which suggests a maximum known total body length of 6.39 m (21.0 ft) based on NHM R3536, the largest known skull at 1.26 m (4.1 ft) in condylobasal length[1] (1.54 m (5.1 ft) in overall length[13]).
[Source]
 

Orionblamblam

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The last time I tried to post something official, the alarm went off, forum rules were upgraded, etc. I think I heard "If you post something like that again, you will be taken out and " I missed the last few words. I'm sure it was metaphorical... I think.
Riiiiight.
 

overscan

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Ed has a past track record of posting fringe and dubious material, so he is right to be cautious.

There's no evidence the Sun Gun was anything more than theoretical calculations by German scientists on something that could be possible eventually - in fact the scientists specifically mentioned it was at least 50 years away from being achievable. It was mentioned in a press conference on German technical innovations in June 1945 along with a bunch of other "high tech' weapons based on initial interviews of German scientists and engineers. Time and Life Magazines got all delirious and invented articles based on the rather sketchy details presented of a space platform in a stationary orbit with a 3 sq km reflector made of sodium.

Assessed soberly in historical context, this was a real *idea* which some German scientists did calculations and drawings on ("here's a weapon to guarantee the Thousand Year Reich!") and showed their captors to demonstrate their capability and usefulness. It was never a serious engineering project.
 

martinbayer

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the war?

I'm wondering if it's make just for making more audience because I think it's where some Wehraboo came from .

The " mean that for me wunderwaffen wouldn't have impact because the ally could simply eitherbomb the factory where these wunderwaffen where being produced or making counter measure who aren't obligated to be overenginered+ they would've lost anyway because of their ressoruces/logisitic/industrial constraint problem .
Actually, this problem has political implications.
1. Hidden pro-nazi journalists, blogers and talkers. "Nazi was first", "Nazi was best" and other. This is a not propaganda of German science, it's a true Nazi propaganda, created in 1930th.
2. Anti-allies, and, most, anti-soviet propaganda. "Soviet vs Nazi - it was a bloody NKVD versus modern science", "Soviet actually lost, losses 1 to 10". This unscientific words, today, also, talks from TV. And, strange, but, Russian Ren-TV channel actually a Wunderwaffe propaganda, "Project "Bell"", "Haunebu" and other - with UFO, bigfoot, bloody NKVD, bloody Rockfeller, reptiloids and other speculations. They were awarded a antipremia, from Russian government, "For the dissemination of anti-scientific information". Also, today, modern nazi and fascists, from Russia, Ukraine and other post-Soviet countryes, talks "Pobedobesie" - "Victory-rabies", and use "facts", about "Stupid Soviet and Great Nazi", "Nazi was a good, all war crimes in WW2 on East front - it was a Soviet" (it's true WW2 nazi propaganda, "You see this deads? It's Red! We protect you for Rote pest") and other.
And, I don't approve of a lie, in all countryes.
Unfortunately, modern media controlled by politicans, and cotrupt storytellers.
...
I read a lot of information about science in XVI-XX century, about war projects. And, I can talk - nazi science wasn't unique, this is a standart European science, powerful, but, not "Uber alles". Many giant projects in WW2, and, plan to realise of P.1000 tank, H-44 battleship and other - it's a Hitler's megalomania. "I need a HUGE tank, HUGE ship, HUGE cannon". Russians and American also projected many huge projects, but, talks, "We need EFFECTIVE weapon".
Also, nazi used a many documents, from France, Russia, Belgium, etc. I have a many information about true Wunderwaffe from Russia, France, USA, English and other. But, I can’t talk about everything in this post.
My central theme - Russian empire, and, I can talk about Tsarists wunderwaffe, but, in other countryes projected a many analogs.
Interesting ideas, projects, experiments in Russian Empire:
- Generator, worked by deformation of iron-roads under trains - ~1910th
- Pilotless programmed train, with automatic stop system in front of an obstacle - ~1914
- Bio-produced fuel - ~WW1 (Russian Makhonin experimented in France in emigation)
- Many torpedo constructions - Distance-operated torpedo with cable (1860th) and radio (Pilchikov, 1898), homing "fire and forget" torpedo (Pilchikov, 1898), rocket-torpedo (Shpakovskiy, late XIX century, Tihomirov, 1914, Danilchenko, 1914, and other)
- Psi-weapon (Behterev, Barchenko and other; yes, it was a seriously works)
- Anabiosis (Bahmetyev)
- Ray gun - many projects, in WW1 and in pre-WW1 period. Most famous - Filippov weapon.
- Walking machines - steam horse (late XIX century), "battle self-propeller" (1917)
- Rail gun - Benardos, 1889, "Powerful cannon on armour-vessels, with generation on steam machine", Podolskiy and Yampolskiy, 1915, "magnet-fugal cannon".
- Primitive mechanical "scype" (Gorin, 1903-1905)
And other many projects. And, Russian science was a standart European science, not "Uber alles". But, about this and other projects not talks. Talks about only nazi projects. V-2, night vision, jet aircraft - ok. Not unique, but, it's true progress in military technologies. But, "Wunderwaffe" use about all Third Reich projects. Pz.V - VIII - Wunderwaffe, but, actually, it's standart tanks, and many Allies tanks was a more effective than German "Zoo". E-series tanks - yes, unification, and... This projects more Wunderwaffe than analogical projects? In USSR in 1940-1941 projected A-43 and A-44 tanks, actually - tank familyes with good unifications, and, soviet A-44 was a true MBT. German assault rifles - Mkb.42, MP-43, StG-44, StG-45, MP-45, SpZ and other also named a "Wunderwaffe", but, to 1942 created analogs, Fedorov, Rybeirolles, Burton and other, in WW1 and Interbellum. In USSR in pre-WW2 period Tokarev and other engineers works at .351 WSL full-auto carbines, and, projected new cartridges - 6.5x40 Fedorov and other. This works stoped in 1941-1943, and restarted in 1943. And, to 1944, in USSR created full analogs of German guns. I haven't data about American and British military projects, but, in USA Remington produced full-auto rifles in different calibres. Actually, many German weapons named "Wunderwaffe", because this guns was a "Deutch", but not a "Wunder".
Iron Felix,

Do *NOT* confuse purely (highly or erroneous) theoretical concepts or even wartime ideology pushed "patents", like an estimated significant majority of the items in your list above, with actual working prototypes - paper is (and even at that time was) cheap. I think it's high time to introduce the NASA concept of Technology Readiness Levels (TRL), see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_readiness_level and https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/heo/scan/engineering/technology/txt_accordion1.html, into this discussion. On the NASA scale of TRL 1 to 9, I believe a lot of the quack non hardware substantiated "Wunderwaffen" nonsense falls on the null point of this scale, which I would postulate as "basic principles claimed" (but no real world confirmation ever).
 
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Orionblamblam

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Assessed soberly in historical context, this was a real *idea* which some German scientists did calculations and drawings on ("here's a weapon to guarantee the Thousand Year Reich!") and showed their captors to demonstrate their capability and usefulness. It was never a serious engineering project.
I'm uncertain of even that much. I've found a few magazine articles (Life, etc) as well as a few New York Times articles that are quite lean on data. The sum total of vintage "evidence" that I've found:





But what it resembles is Hermann Oberths space mirror of 1923-29, which fits the general description, but was intended to actually obey the laws of physics. It was an openly published, well-known (among people well-read in rocketry at the time) concept, and I've never found anything to counter my belief that the "sun gun" was the result of some reporter finding Oberths book and misunderstanding it, or some German running a line of BS past a gullible Allied officer.

 

Iron Felix

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the war?

I'm wondering if it's make just for making more audience because I think it's where some Wehraboo came from .

The " mean that for me wunderwaffen wouldn't have impact because the ally could simply eitherbomb the factory where these wunderwaffen where being produced or making counter measure who aren't obligated to be overenginered+ they would've lost anyway because of their ressoruces/logisitic/industrial constraint problem .
Actually, this problem has political implications.
1. Hidden pro-nazi journalists, blogers and talkers. "Nazi was first", "Nazi was best" and other. This is a not propaganda of German science, it's a true Nazi propaganda, created in 1930th.
2. Anti-allies, and, most, anti-soviet propaganda. "Soviet vs Nazi - it was a bloody NKVD versus modern science", "Soviet actually lost, losses 1 to 10". This unscientific words, today, also, talks from TV. And, strange, but, Russian Ren-TV channel actually a Wunderwaffe propaganda, "Project "Bell"", "Haunebu" and other - with UFO, bigfoot, bloody NKVD, bloody Rockfeller, reptiloids and other speculations. They were awarded a antipremia, from Russian government, "For the dissemination of anti-scientific information". Also, today, modern nazi and fascists, from Russia, Ukraine and other post-Soviet countryes, talks "Pobedobesie" - "Victory-rabies", and use "facts", about "Stupid Soviet and Great Nazi", "Nazi was a good, all war crimes in WW2 on East front - it was a Soviet" (it's true WW2 nazi propaganda, "You see this deads? It's Red! We protect you for Rote pest") and other.
And, I don't approve of a lie, in all countryes.
Unfortunately, modern media controlled by politicans, and cotrupt storytellers.
...
I read a lot of information about science in XVI-XX century, about war projects. And, I can talk - nazi science wasn't unique, this is a standart European science, powerful, but, not "Uber alles". Many giant projects in WW2, and, plan to realise of P.1000 tank, H-44 battleship and other - it's a Hitler's megalomania. "I need a HUGE tank, HUGE ship, HUGE cannon". Russians and American also projected many huge projects, but, talks, "We need EFFECTIVE weapon".
Also, nazi used a many documents, from France, Russia, Belgium, etc. I have a many information about true Wunderwaffe from Russia, France, USA, English and other. But, I can’t talk about everything in this post.
My central theme - Russian empire, and, I can talk about Tsarists wunderwaffe, but, in other countryes projected a many analogs.
Interesting ideas, projects, experiments in Russian Empire:
- Generator, worked by deformation of iron-roads under trains - ~1910th
- Pilotless programmed train, with automatic stop system in front of an obstacle - ~1914
- Bio-produced fuel - ~WW1 (Russian Makhonin experimented in France in emigation)
- Many torpedo constructions - Distance-operated torpedo with cable (1860th) and radio (Pilchikov, 1898), homing "fire and forget" torpedo (Pilchikov, 1898), rocket-torpedo (Shpakovskiy, late XIX century, Tihomirov, 1914, Danilchenko, 1914, and other)
- Psi-weapon (Behterev, Barchenko and other; yes, it was a seriously works)
- Anabiosis (Bahmetyev)
- Ray gun - many projects, in WW1 and in pre-WW1 period. Most famous - Filippov weapon.
- Walking machines - steam horse (late XIX century), "battle self-propeller" (1917)
- Rail gun - Benardos, 1889, "Powerful cannon on armour-vessels, with generation on steam machine", Podolskiy and Yampolskiy, 1915, "magnet-fugal cannon".
- Primitive mechanical "scype" (Gorin, 1903-1905)
And other many projects. And, Russian science was a standart European science, not "Uber alles". But, about this and other projects not talks. Talks about only nazi projects. V-2, night vision, jet aircraft - ok. Not unique, but, it's true progress in military technologies. But, "Wunderwaffe" use about all Third Reich projects. Pz.V - VIII - Wunderwaffe, but, actually, it's standart tanks, and many Allies tanks was a more effective than German "Zoo". E-series tanks - yes, unification, and... This projects more Wunderwaffe than analogical projects? In USSR in 1940-1941 projected A-43 and A-44 tanks, actually - tank familyes with good unifications, and, soviet A-44 was a true MBT. German assault rifles - Mkb.42, MP-43, StG-44, StG-45, MP-45, SpZ and other also named a "Wunderwaffe", but, to 1942 created analogs, Fedorov, Rybeirolles, Burton and other, in WW1 and Interbellum. In USSR in pre-WW2 period Tokarev and other engineers works at .351 WSL full-auto carbines, and, projected new cartridges - 6.5x40 Fedorov and other. This works stoped in 1941-1943, and restarted in 1943. And, to 1944, in USSR created full analogs of German guns. I haven't data about American and British military projects, but, in USA Remington produced full-auto rifles in different calibres. Actually, many German weapons named "Wunderwaffe", because this guns was a "Deutch", but not a "Wunder".
Iron Felix,

Do *NOT* confuse purely (highly or erroneous) theoretical concepts or even wartime ideology pushed "patents", like an estimated significant majority of the items in your list above, with actual working prototypes - paper is (and even at that time was) cheap. I think it's high time to introduce the NASA concept of Technology Readiness Levels (TRL), see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_readiness_level and https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/heo/scan/engineering/technology/txt_accordion1.html, into this discussion. On the NASA scale of TRL 1 to 9, I believe a lot of the quack non hardware substantiated "Wunderwaffen" nonsense falls on the null point of this scale, which I would postulate as "basic principles claimed" (but no real world confirmation ever).
And, many German projects was a "paper" - Senger's Silbervogel, P.1000, Schtrahlbombertrager, H-44 and other. But, also named a "Wunderwaffe".
 

Iron Felix

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Foo Fighter

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Because so much real data was destroyed or put into archive in different nations, getting real information is a challenge and we do love a challenge. This also plays to the emotionally weak and intelectually cowardly who just want other people to take them seriously when they do not deserve it. There are sufficient numbers of intellectually incompetent people who want to have a kind of following to say they are great when they basically have problems tying their shoe laces. Better stick to velcro then. Emotionally, intelectually AND socially. The same people who like to photochop a 747 or whatever with six decks and twenty engines and pretend they are real etc. Really sad muppets imho.
 

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The source for the article was a real press conference in June 1945 by Lieutenant Colonel John A.Keck (from Oreensburg. Pennsylvania), chief of the European Theater of Operations branch of the Enemy Technical Intelligence branch of the US Army Ordnance Service. Not the "chief of Allied technical intelligence on German weapons" as described in the Time article - ominous sign for its accuracy :). Fresh from the field, having uncovered lots of cool technology, the theme of his press conference was "it's a good job the war ended when it did because the Germans were working on lots of advanced weapons". Being from the Ordnance service his team's focus and technical background was on land based weapons including tanks, guns, missiles.

I hope we aren't doubting this press conference occurred - there is plentiful evidence that it occurred.

He was passing on information gathered from German scientists or engineers who'd been interviewed. If you read HISTORY OF ORDNANCE CIOS (1944-45) you'll see the method they used for intelligence gathering:
Clip.JPG

It's fairly obvious that this process is liable to potential exaggeration or distortion of the truth, especially if the scientist is keen to prove his worth to his captors. In June 1945, there would have been limited time to translate original documentation, if any even existed. Therefore it is hard to know how serious this was. Maybe a scientist made up something based on Oberth's work. Maybe he really did work on a space mirror. We don't have enough evidence to conclude either way.
 

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interesting but not the really the subject of my post I think(still to have the sun gun life article at hand thought). I wonder if the overhype side is also here because the ally weapon are often see as technologicly inferior to their axis counterpart(even thought you don't have to overenginer something to make it good).
 

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It's fairly obvious that this process is liable to potential exaggeration or distortion of the truth, especially if the scientist is keen to prove his worth to his captors.
Say what you like about the rest of them, Von Braun certainly proved his!

I think the reason for the Wunderwaffe hype is simply because:
a) These WERE relatively advanced weapons for their time, and...
b) Their glittering promise and potential were never shown up as false in the school of hard knocks.

Had the Americans never become involved in Vietnam or the Gulf, we might (for example) never have found out just how lousy Sparrow, Falcon and Sidewinder really were under field conditions (although Falcon's kill rate is a direct-hit rate, which probably puts it a notch above Sparrow and maybe even early Sidewinder).
 

edwest

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Ed has a past track record of posting fringe and dubious material, so he is right to be cautious.

There's no evidence the Sun Gun was anything more than theoretical calculations by German scientists on something that could be possible eventually - in fact the scientists specifically mentioned it was at least 50 years away from being achievable. It was mentioned in a press conference on German technical innovations in June 1945 along with a bunch of other "high tech' weapons based on initial interviews of German scientists and engineers. Time and Life Magazines got all delirious and invented articles based on the rather sketchy details presented of a space platform in a stationary orbit with a 3 sq km reflector made of sodium.

Assessed soberly in historical context, this was a real *idea* which some German scientists did calculations and drawings on ("here's a weapon to guarantee the Thousand Year Reich!") and showed their captors to demonstrate their capability and usefulness. It was never a serious engineering project.

Dubious material... harumph, well, there's that.
 

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I hope we aren't doubting this press conference occurred - there is plentiful evidence that it occurred.
Given how the "sun gun" that came from the press conference has been glommed onto by the Ancient Aliens crowd, I'm beginning to doubt the existence of the press conference, of Keck, the United States Army, the sun, "and" and "the."


It's fairly obvious that this process is liable to potential exaggeration or distortion of the truth, especially if the scientist is keen to prove his worth to his captors.
People lie. People exaggerate. Sometimes people are simply mistaken. These simple truths are ignored or outright tossed overboard when the story being told or sold is More Interesting Than Reality.

Which brings us back to the point of the thread. Wunderwaffe are overhyped simply because they're interesting... and because the "documentary" makers are more interested in drama than in facts. Go ahead and *try* to fill 45 minutes of documentary with discussion of how the "sun gun" was just a misunderstanding or an exaggeration.
 

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The overhipe of wunderwaffen doesn't date only from the end of the war by the allies.
It was already part of wartime nazi propaganda, the all "V-weapons are going to save us", the glorification of their Tiger tank compare to the untermenshen T-34s (when you think they were in fact waisting ressources building tanks like peace time Mercedes. T-34 WAS the thing to build in wartime). Yes some German weapons were advanced for their time, but for most part , allies could do the same. It's just that the allies directed their ressources to researchs and manufacturing that made them win the war.
The real wunderwaffen were the effective weapons easy to produce in great numbers, P-51s, Sten smg, Sherman, Yak fighters, T-34, you name it... And the atom bomb . These were correctly directed ressources.

Feel like the after war Wunderwaffen overhipe thing is also a continuation of the nazi staff vision and delusion/incompetence of superior aryan tech advance that could wipe the inferior hordes.
And it sells because:
- It pleases a certain public that have this same kind of delusion/dreams of superiority (so yes, sorry, it's also political).
- It's sensational. For a large part of the public liking to scare itself with spooky "nazis could have win the war" .
- It attracts curiosity. German wartime stuff attract curiosity, specially if there is a swastika on it. For example it's a fact that an aviation mag with a image of a Luftwaffe plane on the cover will sell more then one with some other plane. Tho it doesn't mean that all poeple attracted by it are nazis, it just works. Sad but true.
Wunderwaffen stuff is the porn of historical research.
 
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