Which is better BVR platform between Mig-31 and Su-35S?

[Squirrel]

It kinda interesting that according to this photo Sukhoi seem to have bigger nose cone than Mig-31

Maybe but the main thing is that N007AM has 1100mm antenna diameter, N035 900mm. Of course big tactical/technical advantage of the N035 Irbis is that its antenna can move left-right,up and down.

In short, if they detect each other at the same distance, Mig-31 will have advantage in first shot, but Su-35 will have advantage when it crank and recommit.

Hm ,that is for the 'MiG-31BM vs Su-35S case' but I think this thread should be about comparative parameters,capabilities of both fighter/interceptors etc ...

When it comes to that comparative analysis,first that should be mentioned is that MiG-31BM is nothing but one 'flying brick' as the flying radar-missile complex ,pure high flying high speed interceptor with the main task to patrol for a long period of time and for the interception from low flying subsonic cruise missiles to the high flying supersonic/hypersonic cruise missiles ( maybe some aeroballistic ones).Of course,, for the interception of all combat aircraft from the tactical and strategic aviation, especially recce,bombers ,AWACS, tankers,airlifters etc with its N007AM and R-37M in the long range BVR. Instead of the old R-40TD( primary potential use was against SR-71),he got newer R-77-1 for the medium range BVR and R-74,of course not for the real WVR against fighters.

On the other side,Su-35S can do all of this with its N035 - R-37M/R-77M combo and as we all know, it is one excellent supermaneuverable 9G capable fighter. Su-35S can also perform SEAD/DEAD combat missions,engage ground targets with high precision guided weapons ( missiles and bombs ) thus, it is the real multi-role fighter.

In some potential ,hypothetical combat situation,great scale war-aggression on RF or something closer , I think that MiG-31BM would be used at alt 20+km in the supersonic cruise mode for some time and Su-35S would be used at alt between 10-20km together with Su-30SM/SM2. So ,MiG-31BM would be 'higher' then those two Sukhoi fighters with greater radio horizon.

 

[Ronny]

Maybe but the main thing is that N007AM has 1100mm antenna diameter, N035 900mm. Of course big tactical/technical advantage of the N035 Irbis is that its antenna can move left-right,up and down.

Yes, I know Zaslon is bigger than Irbis-E. But my point is that, I have always thought that Flanker carry smaller radar because its nose diameter is smaller. But actually, in theory, they can probably fit similar size radar
Anyway, the steerable Irbis-e would provide massive advantage for the Su-35 in BVR combat against Mig-31, because Su-35 can actually notch while still guiding the R-37 toward Mig-31. That a massive advantage both in term of kinematic and tracking

When it comes to that comparative analysis,first that should be mentioned is that MiG-31BM is nothing but one 'flying brick' as the flying radar-missile complex ,pure high flying high speed interceptor with the main task to patrol for a long period of time and for the interception from low flying subsonic cruise missiles to the high flying supersonic/hypersonic cruise missiles ( maybe some aeroballistic ones).Of course,, for the interception of all combat aircraft from the tactical and strategic aviation, especially recce,bombers ,AWACS, tankers,airlifters etc with its N007AM and R-37M in the long range BVR. Instead of the old R-40TD( primary potential use was against SR-71),he got newer R-77-1 for the medium range BVR

I think it is quite funny in the sense that, on one hand, Mig-31 will be super lethal in BVR because its missile has massive energy. On the other hand, it also super vulnerable to target that can fire back because the extreme altitude and speed of Mig-31 mean enemy F-pole would be rather long, and if Mig-31 dive down to dodge enemy missile, it lack the acceleration and climb rate of other aircraft to recommit after. No wonder it is mostly suited as an interceptor

 

[Scott Kenny]

2. Cruise missiles typically don’t fly solo, they're often launched in salvos. In this case, it's likely that the ship launched multiple missiles simultaneously. If these missiles were flying in close formation within the same radar resolution cell, their combined radar cross section (RCS) would be significantly larger than that of a single missile.
The challenge is that we don’t know the number of missiles involved or their formation geometry, making it impossible to accurately estimate the effective RCS.

The usual launching procedures for a cruise missile lead to a stream of missiles 5-10 seconds apart. That's a couple miles apart while in flight.

 

[Squirrel]

Yes, I know Zaslon is bigger than Irbis-E. But my point is that, I have always thought that Flanker carry smaller radar because its nose diameter is smaller. But actually, in theory, they can probably fit similar size radar
Anyway, the steerable Irbis-e would provide massive advantage for the Su-35 in BVR combat against Mig-31, because Su-35 can actually notch while still guiding the R-37 toward Mig-31. That a massive advantage both in term of kinematic and tracking

Radome diameters at their bases are the same I think .Keep on mind that inner Cassegrain antenna of the Su-27/30 FFF has diameter almost 1100mm. Irbis has 900mm but that is because it is completely movable/ steerible. In comparison with MiG-31BM ,Su-35S of course can not achieve such a great heights and real speed during launch but that steerable antenna is something very useful and can be or is a real gamechanger.

I think it is quite funny in the sense that, on one hand, Mig-31 will be super lethal in BVR because its missile has massive energy. On the other hand, it also super vulnerable to target that can fire back because the extreme altitude and speed of Mig-31 mean enemy F-pole would be rather long, and if Mig-31 dive down to dodge enemy missile, it lack the acceleration and climb rate of other aircraft to recommit after. No wonder it is mostly suited as an interceptor

When we talk about MiG-31BM always must count on 4 aircraft combat group as the main one (in previously mentioned combat cases) ,thus we must count on their possibility to launch complete salvo in the radio silence mode. In the main group there is 200 km of space between each other with possibility that all four can fly at the same alt or different ones. Yes, there must be illumination from one of four there but other three are 'free' when it comes to IZL mode. Thus from four interceptors,only one would track/illuminate given targets( max 8 of them).

They can use mode 'Sbros' ( data from so called NASU or the ground automatic control station) or the mode 'Tandem' ( data from the group leader which the main data can get from AWACS e.g.).
From the data we collected in the past several weeks, we can presume that N007AM with R-37M has RC channel's max range 100km,that medium/bigger air target can be locked-on in the SARH mode from min. 100km etc. Su-35S with its R-37M has practically all of this capabilities.

Everything is about timing,right place and right time to launch the AAM. R-37M with its true air speed of 6 M ( maybe even greater Mach number with greater launch speed) ,after about 30sec acceleration time ,lofting, currently has no real counterpart.Even fighters are not safe from this AAM and in cases when launch range was more than 200km.There will be very little or no time for reacting for any potential enemy.Of course ,except evasive maneuvering.

So MiG-31BM would be as the real heavy interceptor used only for one, ,first engagement ,Su-35S will fly under their patrol groups and would be engaged in several attacks if that would be possible to achieve.

 

[Ronny]

Anyone know what is the maximum quantity of R-37 that Su-35 can carry? I previously thought that it can only carry four R-37: 2 on the wing and 2 on the centerline. But apparently, it can only carry at least 2 more under the inlet

 

[paralay]

8000 kg : 600 kg = 13

 

[Avimimus]

Anyone know what is the maximum quantity of R-37 that Su-35 can carry? I previously thought that it can only carry four R-37: 2 on the wing and 2 on the centerline. But apparently, it can only carry at least 2 more under the inlet

They might have cleared more hardpoints for the Sukhoi to use. However, in practice missile configurations with more than six R-27/R-73 led to degraded performance (I suspect due to drag as much as weight)... so there may be a difference between the maximum number that could be carried and the maximum number that could be carried with sufficient supersonic agility to allow optimal launch conditions.

I'd also wonder what the maximum allowed gee load is with the R-37 equipped? Even though the turn rate are slow in a supersonic fight, the gee levels attained are quite high - so that is a limit as well (I wouldn't be surprised if a Mig-31 with six R-37 and a Su-35 with six R-37 had similar supersonic manoeuvrability). It is important to remember that retaining at least some supersonic manoeuvrability is important for kinematic defense in a BVR fight.

 

[Avimimus]

8000 kg : 600 kg = 13

On the tip hardpoints as well?

 

[Ronny]

They might have cleared more hardpoints for the Sukhoi to use. However, in practice missile configurations with more than six R-27/R-73 led to degraded performance (I suspect due to drag as much as weight)... so there may be a difference between the maximum number that could be carried and the maximum number that could be carried with sufficient supersonic agility to allow optimal launch conditions.

I'd also wonder what the maximum allowed gee load is with the R-37 equipped? Even though the turn rate are slow in a supersonic fight, the gee levels attained are quite high - so that is a limit as well (I wouldn't be surprised if a Mig-31 with six R-37 and a Su-35 with six R-37 had similar supersonic manoeuvrability). It is important to remember that retaining at least some supersonic manoeuvrability is important for kinematic defense in a BVR fight.

Normal Mig-31 can only carry 4 R-37, the only version that carry 6 R-37 is Mig-31M that never entered full production.

 

[Ronny]

8000 kg : 600 kg = 13

But not all hardpoint can carry R-37

 

[paralay]

The R-33 and R-37 missiles are designed to be mounted under the fuselage of the MiG-31. Therefore, they are short and have poor aerodynamics. It is possible to mount four R-37Ms on the Su-35S, but those mounted under the wings will create unnecessary drag.

 

[Avimimus]

Might be relevant:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-speed-limit-when-loaded-with-missiles.41103/

 

[Sferrin]

We have at least 2 different sources saying the samething, I think it is unlikely that they can all make the same mistake.

Unless they're using the same incorrect source. Because that never happens.

 

[Sferrin]

The usual launching procedures for a cruise missile lead to a stream of missiles 5-10 seconds apart. That's a couple miles apart while in flight.

There was an account from a Tomcat pilot during Desert Storm wherein one of the guys controlling the air on an Aegis told him to "look down and to your left" with his radar. The pilot said he saw "37 Tomahawks inbound".

 

[Squirrel]

Anyone know what is the maximum quantity of R-37 that Su-35 can carry? I previously thought that it can only carry four R-37: 2 on the wing and 2 on the centerline. But apparently, it can only carry at least 2 more under the inlet

R-37M attached under the inner wing hardpoint of the Su-35S.

There is one detail with the R-37M, citation .

''The Irbis-E radar can detect and simultaneously track up to 30 air targets while maintaining a continuous surveillance (pass-through tracking mode), and simultaneously engage two targets with two missiles with semi-active radars and up to eight targets with eight missiles with active radars, including up to four targets at ranges exceeding 300 km.''

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-radar-for-su-30-su-35.622/page-4#post-917884

 

[Scott Kenny]

There is one detail with the R-37M, citation .

''The Irbis-E radar can detect and simultaneously track up to 30 air targets while maintaining a continuous surveillance (pass-through tracking mode), and simultaneously engage two targets with two missiles with semi-active radars and up to eight targets with eight missiles with active radars, including up to four targets at ranges exceeding 300 km.''

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-radar-for-su-30-su-35.622/page-4#post-917884

But is that radar performance that can detect targets at that range, or is it missile performance to hit targets at that range?

Also, what is the 300km target doing? Because "head on closing target" usually implies about a 200-250km missile flight range. Yes, I know the exact range depends on speed difference between the missile and target.

 

[Squirrel]

But is that radar performance that can detect targets at that range, or is it missile performance to hit targets at that range?

Also, what is the 300km target doing? Because "head on closing target" usually implies about a 200-250km missile flight range. Yes, I know the exact range depends on speed difference between the missile and target

Info is about the R-37M ( so, four targets can be engaged at ranges more than 300km with four R-37M). We already know that N035 Irbis can detect e.g. MiG-21 ( forward RCS =3 sqm) at 400km ( PPS-DO mode).

 

[Ronny]

Info is about the R-37M ( so, four targets can be engaged at ranges more than 300km with four R-37M).

I think Su-35 can carry 6 R-37 since it can carry 1 under each inlet, 2 under the centerline, 1 on each wing.
Anyway, it seem R-37M have roughly same range as PL-16?

 

[Squirrel]

I think Su-35 can carry 6 R-37 since it can carry 1 under each inlet, 2 under the centerline, 1 on each wing.
Anyway, it seem R-37M have roughly same range as PL-16?

I've already asked the question about max possible number of R-37M's. Hm, maybe it is eight? Who knows, maybe R-37M can be carried under the middle wing hardpoint too (AKU-620)?

About R-37M/Izd 610M and its max possible launch range. There is appropriate thread but certainly it can be 400km against some big and fast incoming aircraft. Here we can see that max launch range even against 3sqm target can be 300km ( lower table).

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-172s-1-alraam-missiles.72/page-6#post-909216

 

[Ainen]

I think Su-35 can carry 6 R-37 since it can carry 1 under each inlet, 2 under the centerline, 1 on each wing.
Anyway, it seem R-37M have roughly same range as PL-16?

It's hard to compare. Not the same class of weapon, and a lot of confusion brought in by Mig-31 with it's extreme standard launch conditions.

 

[paralay]

The officially declared range of the RVV-BD in the forward hemisphere is 200 km. What is the RVV-BD if not the R-37M?
It is likely that the launch from the Su-35S (carrier speed of 2500 km/h, launch altitude of 18 km) allows this missile to be fired at a range of 200 km, while the launch from the MiG-31BM allows it to be fired at a range of 300 km (carrier speed of 3000 km/h, launch altitude of 22 km).

 

[Squirrel]

The officially declared range of the RVV-BD in the forward hemisphere is 200 km. What is the RVV-BD if not the R-37M?
It is likely that the launch from the Su-35S (carrier speed of 2500 km/h, launch altitude of 18 km) allows this missile to be fired at a range of 200 km, while the launch from the MiG-31BM allows it to be fired at a range of 300 km (carrier speed of 3000 km/h, launch altitude of 22 km).

Yes but we had the opportunity to see that Su-35S can engage target from 170 km flying at 10+km with the speed little above 1 Mach .Also we have info about launch ranges greater than 200 km ( 28 July 2024 ,Su-35S shot down UkrAF MiG-29 and launch range of R-37M was 213km).

 

[Ainen]

It is likely that the launch from the Su-35S (carrier speed of 2500 km/h, launch altitude of 18 km) allows this missile to be fired at a range of 200 km, while the launch from the MiG-31BM allows it to be fired at a range of 300 km (carrier speed of 3000 km/h, launch altitude of 22 km).

Then it's one hell of flying crap, if 200km head on launch requires impossible parameters (I frankly doubt anyone has ever tested weapons release from any flanker at over mach 2).

PL-15, per well known article, gets 180 from very conservative subsonic launch and medium altitude.

 

[paralay]

As usual, the Russians claim a "guaranteed" range of target destruction, but the actual range is slightly longer

 

[Ronny]

Then it's one hell of flying crap, if 200km head on launch requires impossible parameters (I frankly doubt anyone has ever tested weapons release from any flanker at over mach 2).

PL-15, per well known article, gets 180 from very conservative subsonic launch and medium altitude.

To be fair, the factor that significantly affect missile range is launch altitude, while launch speed have very small impact

 

[Squirrel]

Then it's one hell of flying crap, if 200km head on launch requires impossible parameters

Again, Su-35S engaged many targets (even low flying fighters) with R-37M and flight parameters were: V=1.2-1.4 Mach max, H=10-12km. Launch ranges were 150km-220km.

(I frankly doubt anyone has ever tested weapons release from any flanker at over mach 2).

MiG-31(M) did it .

''On August 18, 1993, a unique experiment was performed to intercept and defeat a target. Operating parameters: MiG-31M flight altitude - 13400 m, speed - 669 m/s, Tu-16 target flight altitude - 10300 m, speed - 189 m/s, target detection range - 319 km, missile launch range - 228 km.''

To be fair, the factor that significantly affect missile range is launch altitude, while launch speed have very small impact

Yes but we must keep on mind that speed of the launch is in fact first speed of the launched AAM.

 

[Ronny]

So this is Mig-31BM specification
Radar detection range 240 km (probably against target with RCS of 3 m2)
Track 24 targets at once

 

[Squirrel]

So this is Mig-31BM specification
Radar detection range 240 km (probably against target with RCS of 3 m2)
Track 24 targets at once

320 km is the max detection range for the 3sqm aircraft. Original source for that data is :

''В № 1 за 2026 год официального журнала Министерства обороны Российской Федерации «Военная Мысль» опубликована небезынтересная статья «Тактика применения авиационных управляемых ракет «воздух — воздух» большой дальности в ходе СВО», авторами которой являются кандидаты военных наук полковник А.Ю. Стёпкин, подполковник А.А. Гвозденко и Ю.Г. Кравцов.''

Issue No. 1 (2026) of *Military Thought*—the official journal of the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation—published an article of considerable interest titled "Tactics for the Employment of Long-Range Air-to-Air Guided Missiles During the Special Military Operation," authored by Candidates of Military Sciences Colonel A.Yu. Styopkin, Lieutenant Colonel A.A. Gvozdenko, and Yu.G. Kravtsov.

So those two tables are from this article.

PS ( data in the both tables are for the 3sqm target).

Yes ,N007AM can automatically track max 24 aircraft in the SNP mode but I think there is possibility to engage 8 of them ( with four R-33/-37M and four R-77-1 e.g. ).

 

[Ronny]

320 km is the max detection range for the 3sqm aircraft. Original source for that data is :

''В № 1 за 2026 год официального журнала Министерства обороны Российской Федерации «Военная Мысль» опубликована небезынтересная статья «Тактика применения авиационных управляемых ракет «воздух — воздух» большой дальности в ходе СВО», авторами которой являются кандидаты военных наук полковник А.Ю. Стёпкин, подполковник А.А. Гвозденко и Ю.Г. Кравцов.''

Issue No. 1 (2026) of *Military Thought*—the official journal of the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation—published an article of considerable interest titled "Tactics for the Employment of Long-Range Air-to-Air Guided Missiles During the Special Military Operation," authored by Candidates of Military Sciences Colonel A.Yu. Styopkin, Lieutenant Colonel A.A. Gvozdenko, and Yu.G. Kravtsov.

So those two tables are from this article.

PS ( data in the both tables are for the 3sqm target).

Yes ,N007AM can automatically track max 24 aircraft in the SNP mode but I think there is possibility to engage 8 of them ( with four R-33/-37M and four R-77-1 e.g. ).

You know, I was thinking, why that "320 km" seem very familiar, turn out that number is literally mentioned in "Mikoyan MiG-31: Famous Russian Aircraft" book written by Yefim Gordon and Dmitriy Komissarov. We basically gone full circle back to where we started. If we took the book description, it seem like the reference RCS value for maximum detection range is 16 m2 rather than 3 m2

 

[Squirrel]

You know, I was thinking, why that "320 km" seem very familiar, turn out that number is literally mentioned in "Mikoyan MiG-31: Famous Russian Aircraft" book written by Yefim Gordon and Dmitriy Komissarov. We basically gone full circle back to where we started. If we took the book description, it seem like the reference RCS value for maximum detection range is 16 m2 rather than 3 m2

There is a catch friend . It was not the real 'nowdays' MiG-31BM,but the version BM from the late 1990's ( flying prototype 58 blue). So it was not real N007AM Zaslon-AM. Take a look, max tracking of 15 aircraft in SNP mode. Real MiG-31BM with its N007AM was first presented during MAKS 2005.

Book was written by Y.Gordon in 2005 before that MAKS and than translated by Sergey and Dmitriy Komissarov:

https://www.scribd.com/document/367902307/Famous-Russian-Aircraft-Mikoyan-MiG-31-Malestrom-pdf