What-If Postwar Carrier Development

[tbone058]

This is a fantastic topic and one where, admittedly, I have spent much time gaming out.

I want to examine the development, construction, deployment, and composition of the airwing of PA-58 Verdun and her potential sister ships through an alternative history that logically leads to her construction and deployment by the Marine Nationale. Firstly, as much of France’s post-war defense procurement was influenced by the Marshall Plan and the Military Assistance Programs that provided US-built weapons systems to post-war Europe, I want to start by shifting the post-war geopolitical reality to one where the US allowed more of a hands-off approach to post-war reconstruction. In such a world, the US was less eager to advocate for the European powers to divest themselves of their colonies. The British Empire remained intact and disinterested in the political future of the continental powers. France emerges from the war as a proponent of a nascent form of the EU, one where French liberal political theories become dominant, and France forms an EU/NATO type political union to prevent a resurgence of German aggression and a counter to Soviet military aspirations for the West. As such, a distrust of the US and the military dominance of the US and Britain is fostered much earlier than what was to come to pass after the Suez Crisis. A De Gaulle-type political figure keeps France and the continent out of NATO. Still, it forms a separate, yet similar alliance to counter the growing Soviet threat, while maintaining continental (French) political sovereignty.

With this geopolitical alternate history laid as a foundation, I can start down the path that leads to PA-58 Verdun. As per the regular timeline, the US furnished the Belleau Wood (CVL-24) and the Langley (CVL-27), as the Bois Belleau and the Lafayette, respectively. The UK provided the Arromanches (ex-HMS Colossus) and the Karel Doorman (ex-HMS Venerable), plus the Dixmude (ex-HMS Biter) and the first Karel Doorman (ex-HMS Nairana) to provide the continent with a carrier force to train and equip its new navy. These ships come replete with their MAP airwings of Hellcats, Helldivers, Avengers, Corsairs, Sea Furies, Fireflies, etc. These carriers and their airwings are pressed into service to counter the wars of decolonization, as per the regular timeline. In the meantime, France is pushing forward with the development of its homegrown shipbuilding program to produce more modern carriers. Further, its aviation industry is likewise testing new designs to complement the upcoming carrier’s airwings.

First out of the gate are the aircraft.

SNCAC NC.1070/1071



SNCAC NC 1080



Nord 2200



Nord 1500 Noréclair



Arsenal VG 90



Bréguet 960 Vultur



Of these designs, the SNCAC NC 1080, Nord 2200, Nord 1500 Noréclair, and the Bréguet 960 Vultur are chosen to go into production for the upcoming launch of the PA-28 Aircraft Carrier Class




With the rapid advances in jet aircraft technology resulting in the growing weight and landing speeds of such designs, the PA-28 is quickly becoming too small to ship an airwing of the late 50s. The result is the PA 54, or the Clemenceau Class, in the regular timeline. In the meantime, the PA-28 is sent back to the yards for a comprehensive modernization that includes adding an angled deck, BS4 catapults, and an enclosed bow, moving the aft elevator to the deck edge in the style of the PA-58 class, and upgraded radars, etc.



As with the US and British, the rate of innovation increased and ever-larger and faster aircraft began populating the decks of the PA-28 and PA-54 designs.

First out of the gate is the Breguet 1100M



The Dassault Mystere IIIN as a dedicated night fighter



A Navalized Sud-Ouest Vautour as a Marine Nationale component of the Force de Frappe
(I personally like the idea of the Vautour IIN as a baseline for a carrier-capable nuclear bomber, like a miniature A-3 Skywarrior)



The Dassault Etendard IV



Dassault Spirale III AEW



Breguet 1120 Sirocco



We have now reached the point of the PA-58 Verdun due to ever-increasing aircraft size, especially in accommodating the projected Force de Frappe component of a supersonic nuclear attack aircraft. I take a different approach, opting for the Sud-Aviation 4060M Super Vautour over the Mirage IVM as the competition winner.



I take this direction as the design can be presented to the Marine Nationale as both a supersonic nuclear attack aircraft



Or as an all-weather interceptor/fleet defense fighter



The aircraft is on par with the F-4 Phantom in size, weight, and performance, and it comes with an advantage that the Mirage IV would not necessarily have: As the Triomphant class SSBN and its M45 SLBMs take the nuclear mission from the Carriers, the fighter variant will still have a justification for future development and construction. The bomber variants of the Super Vautour can be converted to perform high-speed reconnaissance missions in a manner similar to how the A-5 Vigilante transitioned for the USN. Further, I know that the Mirage IV had the potential for dual development, but I think that the nose-high attitude landing characteristics of a delta-wing planform would lose out in a competition against a more conventional design, such as the Super Vautour in the early 60s.

I would further complement the Verdun Class airwing with Etendard IVs as light attack platforms. The legacy Vautour would soldier on as a refueling and ECM platform, much in the same way as the A-3 for the USN. The Etendard IV would be upgraded to the Super Etendard earlier than the regular timeline, and the Breguet Sirocco would evolve into the Mirage F1. The Sirocco/Mirage F1 would be the primary fighter type for the PA-54/ Clemenceau class, as the Super Vautour would be too big and heavy.

Here are charts of the airwing composition for each class:

PA-28 (1955)
Fighter - SNCAC NC 1080
Night Fighter - Nord 2200
Attack - Bréguet 960 Vultur

PA-28 (1960)
Fighter - Breguet 1100M
Night Fighter - Dassault Mystere IIIN
Attack - Bréguet 960 Vultur
AEW - Nord 1500 Noréclair with APS-20 radar

PA-54 (1960)
Fighter - Breguet 1100M
Night Fighter - Dassault Mystere IIIN
Light Attack – Etendard IV
Heavy Attack - Sud-Ouest Vautour IIM
AEW - Nord 1500 Noréclair with APS-20 radar

As the PA-58 Verdun class is introduced into service, the PA-28 class takes on the ASW mission that the Arromanches and Karel Doorman had assumed in the 50s. In this timeline, the PA-28s first complement the Arromanches and Karel Doorman, but the PA-76 class replaces the old British carriers for the ASW/Sea Control mission.



PA-58 (1970)
Fighter - Sud-Aviation 4060M Super Vautour
Light Attack – Dassault Super Etendard
Medium Attack - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM
Reconnaissance - Sud-Aviation 4060P Super Vautour
ECM/Tanker - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM
AEW - Dassault Spirale III AEW

PA-54 (1970)
Fighter - Breguet 1120 Sirocco
Light Attack – Dassault Super Etendard
Medium Attack - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM
Reconnaissance - Breguet 1120P Sirocco
ECM/Tanker - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM
AEW - Dassault Spirale III AEW

PA-58 (1975)
Fighter - Sud-Aviation 4060M Super Vautour (Atar 9K-50 Engines)
Light Attack – Dassault Super Etendard
Medium Attack - Sud-Ouest Vautour IIM (With ATAR 8 Engines and Terrain-Following Radar)
Reconnaissance - Sud-Aviation 4060P Super Vautour (Atar 9K-50 Engines)
ECM/Tanker - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM (With ATAR 8 Engines)
AEW - Dassault Spirale III AEW

PA-54 (1975)
Fighter - Dassault-Breguet Super Sirocco (Mirage F1)
Light Attack – Dassault Super Etendard
Medium Attack - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM (With ATAR 8 Engines and Terrain-Following Radar)
Reconnaissance - Dassault-Breguet Super Sirocco (Mirage F1CR)
ECM/Tanker - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM (With ATAR 8 Engines)
AEW - Dassault Spirale III AEW

PA-58 (1980)
Fighter - Sud-Aviation 4060M Super Vautour (Atar 9K-50 Engines)
Light Attack – Dassault-Breguet Super Etendard
Medium Attack - Sud-Ouest Vautour IIM Modernisé (with ATAR 8s, Terrain following radar, and Pave-Knife and FLIR Pods)
Reconnaissance - Sud-Aviation 4060P Super Vautour (Atar 9K-50 Engines)
ECM/Tanker - Sud-Ouest Vautour IIM (With ATAR 8 Engines)
AEW - Dassault Spirale III AEW

PA-54 (1980)
Fighter – Dassault-Breguet Mirage G (TF-30 variant)
Light Attack – Dassault-Breguet Super Etendard
Medium Attack - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM Modernisé (with ATAR 8s, Terrain following radar, and Pave-Knife and FLIR Pods)
Reconnaissance - Dassault-Breguet Super Sirocco (Mirage F1)
ECM/Tanker - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM (With ATAR 8 Engines)
AEW - Dassault-Breguet Spirale III AEW

PA-58 (1985)
Fighter – Dassault-Breguet Mirage G8-01M (SNECMA 53 Engines)
Strike Fighter – Dassault-Breguet Super Sirocco T (Mirage F1CT)
Medium Attack - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM Modernisé (with ATAR 8s, Terrain following radar, and Pave-Knife and FLIR Pods)
Reconnaissance - Sud-Aviation 4060P Super Vautour
ECM/Tanker - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM (With ATAR 8 Engines)
AEW - Dassault BR.123B AEW

PA-54 (1985)
Strike Fighter – Dassault-Breguet Mirage G (TF-30 variant)
Medium Attack - Sud-Ouest Vautour IIM Modernisé (with ATAR 8s, Terrain following radar, and Pave-Knife and FLIR Pods)
Reconnaissance - Dassault-Breguet Super Sirocco (Mirage F1CR)
ECM/Tanker - Sud Aviation Vautour IIM (With ATAR 8 Engines)
AEW - Dassault-Breguet Spirale III AEW

PA-58 (1990)
Fighter – Dassault Mirage G8-01M (SNECMA 53 Engines)
Strike Fighter – Dassault Super Sirocco T (Mirage F1CT)
Medium Attack - Aerospatiale Vautour IIM Modernisé (with ATAR 8s, Terrain following radar, and Pave-Knife and FLIR Pods)
Reconnaissance - Dassault Super Sirocco R (Mirage F1CR)
ECM/Tanker – Aerospatiale Vautour IIM (With ATAR 8 Engines)
AEW - Dassault BR.123B AEW

PA-54 (1990)
Strike Fighter – Dassault-Breguet Mirage G (TF-30 variant)
Medium Attack - Aerospatiale Vautour IIM Modernisé (with ATAR 8s, Terrain following radar, and Pave-Knife and FLIR Pods)
Reconnaissance - Dassault-Breguet Super Sirocco R (Mirage F1CR)
ECM/Tanker - Aerospatiale Vautour IIM (With ATAR 8 Engines)
AEW - Dassault-Breguet Spirale III AEW

PA-58 (2000)
Fighter – Dassault-Breguet Mirage G8-01M
Strike Fighter – Dassault Rafale M
Reconnaissance - Dassault-Breguet Super Sirocco R (Mirage F1CR)
AEW - Dassault BR.123B AEW

Charles De Gaulle (2000)
Fighter – Dassault-Breguet Mirage G8-01M
Strike Fighter – Dassault Rafale M
Reconnaissance - Dassault-Breguet Super Sirocco R (Mirage F1CR)
AEW - Dassault BR.123B AEW

 

[JJMM]

"Wow!
An ambitious program for French aeronautics, it's well-documented, but where have the "fans," including the essential "Pedros," gone?
It should be noted that the two US flat-tops were lent to France, and that the Karel Doormann was Dutch...
I can add the profile and the top view of the PA58 without aircraft if needed, but I'm not interested in drawing the mentioned planes."

 

[tbone058]

"Wow!
An ambitious program for French aeronautics, it's well-documented, but where have the "fans," including the essential "Pedros," gone?
It should be noted that the two US flat-tops were lent to France, and that the Karel Doormann was Dutch...
I can add the profile and the top view of the PA58 without aircraft if needed, but I'm not interested in drawing the mentioned planes."

Fair enough; I did not show any rotary wing love in my post! According to my francophilic postwar continental European scenario, the alternate timeline helicopter complements of the carriers would mirror the regular timeline, where the operations of Sikorsky S-51s, S-55s, and S-58s would proceed as usual until the French and other continental European aviation companies could produce something home-grown to replace the American-sourced designs. The motivation for home-grown designs parallels the regular timeline where the French, if given a chance, would prefer to field a domestic design over an imported or licensed design in order to maintain military sovereignty.

Further, to answer your question concerning the Karel Doorman, if you reference the prologue to my post, I lay a proposed geopolitical structure for continental Europe as an EU analogue with France's operation as a hegemon to a united continent, sans the UK and Ireland. As such, the Netherlands, along with the other Benelux countries, West Germany, Italy, Portugal, Spain (After Franco's death), Norway, Denmark, and the microstates have a federated military structure. This would result in the Karel Doorman operating alongside the Arromanches and fielding a common airwing of mainly domestically produced aircraft as the postwar economy recovers. This would mean that all of the militaries of the continental European powers would be operating as a single multinational force. I have some scenarios where the Italian/Brazilian AMX becomes a carrier-borne light attack aircraft.

Moreover, you will notice that a Jaguar M is conspicuously missing from my roster. In this future scenario, almost anything that results from a Franco/British collaboration will not transpire. In place of the Jaguar, the Breguet BR.1180 and BR.120 evolve from previous Breguet designs, and the Hawker-Siddley HS1179 evolves separately from any collaboration with France. Interestingly, I would like to explore the use of the BR.120 as an aeronavale component, perhaps as a Vautour replacement in the medium attack role.

 

[JJMM]

OK, my apologies for that omission. Regarding the helicopters, we can mention the successful S58, which were license-built by Sud Aviation, then the unforgettable Alouette III Pedro and ASW, and finally, from the 60s, the SA-321 Super Frelon from the same manufacturer. Lastly, there are the Super Étendard, which were our first carrier-based nuclear weapon platform.

The five plates of aircraft were supposed to be presented for the centennial of the Hyères naval air base, but they were arranged for pleasure...
Also, here is the PA 28 with aircraft such as the Breguet Br.810, Dewoitine D.790, and NC 1070 for what was avoided...
To conclude, a complete, all-French task force centered around the PA58 Verdun an impossible dream !

 

[tbone058]

OK, my apologies for that omission. Regarding the helicopters, we can mention the successful S58, which were license-built by Sud Aviation, then the unforgettable Alouette III Pedro and ASW, and finally, from the 60s, the SA-321 Super Frelon from the same manufacturer. Lastly, there are the Super Étendard, which were our first carrier-based nuclear weapon platform.

The five plates of aircraft were supposed to be presented for the centennial of the Hyères naval air base, but they were arranged for pleasure...
Also, here is the PA 28 with aircraft such as the Breguet Br.810, Dewoitine D.790, and NC 1070 for what was avoided...
To conclude, a complete, all-French task force centered around the PA58 Verdun an impossible dream !

No worries, it is understandable, given my lack of paying homage to the vital rotary-wing assets of any carrier air group. I have also gamed out the COD assets, but I will leave that to another time.

Thank you for sharing your plates; I am familiar with most of them, and I hold them in the highest regard for their accuracy and artistic beauty.

As you can see, my starting assumption in the alternate history is that the continental defense industry would be preferred over foreign designs or manufacturing. I have presented a geopolitical scenario that should provide a foundation for this assumption to hold credibility. In your closing statement, you claim that "a complete, all-French task force centered around the PA58 Verdun is an impossible dream." Do you mean impossible in the sense of logical impossibility, such as the existence of a married bachelor, or the meaning of impossible as theoretically impossible? If the first, you would have to make a case that there could be no possible world where such a scenario could occur. If the second, you would have to make a case, given the changes to the altered timeline, explaining why that could not occur or has a high probability of not occurring. It seems like you are not considering the changes to the altered timeline as a foundation for your assertion.

 

[JJMM]

Thank you so much ! No, that's just impossible since the PA-58 was never built; all the others were!

 

[tbone058]

Thank you so much ! No, that's just impossible since the PA-58 was never built; all the others were!

Gotcha, and thanks for the clarification. I have to admit that there could be a possible world where the PA-58 saw the light of day and we would have stock footage of air ops to drool over.