Whatif: Breguet compete with Dassault (1955 - 1970)

[Archibald]

Louis Breguet died in 1955, unfortunately, and the company was finally eaten by Dassault in the late 60's. They nonetheless gave a lot of worries to Dassault when they won ECAT in 1963, later known as the Jaguar.
Because, you see, by the late 50's Dassault had managed to crush any opposition on combat aircraft from PUBLIC companies. The last to resist was the SNCASO with the Vautour bomber, yet this one was buried by the Mirage IV. Later that situation was enshrined by De Gaulle: to Dassault, combat aircraft, to public companies, everything else - airliners, choppers, rockets, bizjets, Concorde, whatever you want except combat aircraft. Sud Aviation repeatedly tried to break the deadlock, including licence-building F-5 and A-7, but was rebuked. By 1973 they had given up.

But how about private companies ? Dassault old pal Henry Potez tried a comeback after WWII but never succeeded. Breguet was a more serious threat, and very nearly pulled it out with the Jaguar. But it was too late and the Jaguar proved their downfall and Dassault ate them for breakfast in 1967-70.

Now whatif Breguet had pulled a Jaguar 5 years earlier ? It corresponds more or less to the 1000 - 1300 series, and Jean Cuny old books had detailed descriptions of all these projects.
It started from the 1001 and 1100 TAON for NATO (lame pun intended and deliberate from Breguet. Did not worked). Jaguar was 1210, later shortened to 121. There is also my favorite one, the 1120 Sirocco: Breguet inventing the Mirage F1 ten years before Dassault, except as a naval fighter. THIS could have been a killer. I will search Cuny book to see if there others viable projects...

 

[Archibald]

An interesting turning point would be Breguet winning the NATO competition,kicking that G-91 piece of junk. From there, there was a naval variant of the TAON that could kick the Etendard IV away from the Foch and Clemenceau.

And then much like OTL Etendard IV, a naval air defence fighter would be needed... with a little luck, maybe Breguet could pull out a Sirocco out of this. This three victories would help the company getting a foothold into combat aircraft for the first time since 1939.

Dassault reaction to this would be... interesting, to say the least.

 

[uk 75]

Interesting. Have you some comparative data on the Breguet planes vs the competition and some images>

 

[Archibald]

I have the Cuny books. I will dig some Breguet late projects out of them.

 

[Grey Havoc]

The old Bréguet 1120 Sirocco thread.

 

[Archibald]

I've found a number of interesting projects from 1000 to 1260.
Breguet 1003 / 1005 TAON derivatives.
Breguet 1110 - 1116 - VTOL - Apterion
Breguet 1120 Sirocco naval fighter
Breguet 1170 TALP (a french F-6D Missileer)
Breguet 1180 (a giant pre-Jaguar for the Mirage IV-B mission, with two Olympus)
Breguet 1200 DAFNE
Breguet 1210 ECAT / Jaguar
Breguet 1220 VG
Breguet 1260 + Dornier P.375 = TA-501 = Alphajet.

 

[Archibald]

I prefer using this thread rather than starting a new one. While "under cover" at AH.com (sigh, facepalm...) I started a TL. I will post it here. First three chapters, incoming !

 

[Archibald]

Part 1

July 1955

Argenteuil aviation plant, near Paris

"Henry Potez ? We need to meet."

On the phone, the 64 years old man was startled. Two months earlier, the small world of French aerospace had mourned the loss of Louis Breguet. At the burial, Potez had met his old friend Marcel Bloch - now Dassault.

Afterwards he had bitterly reflected on their different fates since the liberation of France, only a decade earlier.

Dassault had rebuild his empire, at breakneck pace. It didn't took an aerospace scientist to see that he would triumph of the disorganized public aerospace companies, the "SNCA+geography" as Potez called them.

So there was Dassault, and the public companies, and little left between them. Except Breguet, presently in a precarious situation.

And Potez, himself, still stuck in the ground.

Dassault had pointed his finger to a man in the crowd. "Sylvain Floirat. Made a fortune in Indochina with Aigle Azur airline. A self-made-man, smart guy, really. He is brilliant."
"I heard of him. What's your point ?"
"He recently sold Aigle Azur to TAT, so he is a very rich man. And guess what ? he has an eye on... Breguet."
"Wait, he intends to get a foothold on airframe manufacturing ?"
"Yes. Seems that running airways isn't enough for him."
"Well, from what I've heard about the man, Breguet will be in good hands with him..."

And two months later... This. That was unexpected. Maybe Floirat had see him discussing with Dassault ?

Maybe... maybe I could rebuild an empire, from Breguet and from Floirat fortune.

Geronimo !

"We will meet, M. Floirat. We have to discuss, indeed."

Floirat thanked him and hanged the phone. Potez intuition had been correct.

Floirat, a very smart man, had indeed see Potez and Dassault side by side. And he knew his french aviation history lessons.

Henry Potez, born 1891.
Marcel Bloch (Dassault), born 1892.

Taught all they knew, by Breguet himself, 17 years older. Their teacher.

From this moment on, 1917, they had been like twins... each one with its own empire. Méaulte versus Argenteuil.
Later using Front Populaire money to recreate their own, private companies. After the previous ones were sized by the French State. With the help of a very smart banker, what was his name ? Chirac ? Yes, Chirac. Abel François.

Until 1936, when chaos had struck for a decade, Front Populaire, 1940, Vichy, a complete shitstorm that ravaged the french aerospace industry. And afterwards, Potez had merely survived when Dassault had rebuild his empire, seemingly at the speed of light.

Then it dawned on Floirat like an evidence.

IF Breguet is to survive, on the long term we need to be able to tackle Dassault. See what happened to the public companies. Bar the Vautour... total failure, as far as combat aircraft are concerned.

Now, Dassault is smart, ruthless, and ambitious. I am, too, but even then, I need somebody whose thinks like Dassault because he knows Dassault like his mother. That is, for a very long time. And the one and only that fit the bill, is Potez.

I need to hire Henry Potez. As a kind of "super advisor" to my company.

 

[zen]

If only Bristol had perfected Orpheus reheat....

 

[zen]

Could the twin gabizo design have been revised to a single Atar?

Or maybe say a Sapphire?

 

[H_K]

Could the twin gabizo design have been revised to a single Atar?

Are you referring to the Taon & derivatives (Br 1100 etc)?

Might make more sense to use the Orpheus powered Taon as the starting point for an Atar derivative.

Along similar lines I have detailed drawings of the parallel evolution of the Mystere XX / Etendard family from twin Gabizo (Etendard II) to single Atar (Etendard IV) to single Orpheus (Etendard VI)… that would give a good idea of the changes required. Must find them in my files…

 

[Archibald]

Could the twin gabizo design have been revised to a single Atar?

Or maybe say a Sapphire?

Breguet did it - on paper at least. An Atar Taon. Must check Jean Cuny.
Dassault did for real for the Etendard with the IV and I thought Breguet had done the same with a 1001/1100 but no, it remained a paper study.

Had Breguet been smarter and designed an Atar Taon, they might have gained a stronghold on naval combat aircraft in place of Etendard IV... and the Mach 2 Sirocco was coming on its heels.

 

[Justo Miranda]

The Taon was better than the Fiat, but the choice of the Italian plane was the best excuse for France to leave NATO.

 

[Archibald]

The Taon was better than the Fiat, but the choice of the Italian plane was the best excuse for France to leave NATO.

Eeeeeh... no. The TAON decision was in 1957, De Gaulle hasn't even returned. He got out of (part of) NATO in March 1966, nearly a decade later... and he didn't gave a frack about Breguet.

 

[zen]

Had Breguet been smarter and designed an Atar Taon, they might have gained a stronghold on naval combat aircraft in place of Etendard IV... and the Mach 2 Sirocco was coming on its heels.

Certainly the basis for a decent aircraft, and what I see in the design does suggest scope for more evolution. More in fact than the Etendard.

 

[uk 75]

I am not so up on French aircraft but it is hard to see anything from Breguet upstaging the Mirage family.
The Mirage III is the only European design to compete successfully with US supersonic fighters like the F104.
The West German Air Force made good use of the G91 in its light fighter/bomber wings. It eventually replaced it with the Alpha Jet. Taon might have done the same job.
Etendard is a bit of a puzzle to me. It gives France an airframe for four decades worth of naval air service. Thats like the RN operating Scimitars or Sea Vixens in the skies over the former Yugoslavia.

 

[H_K]

Could the twin gabizo design have been revised to a single Atar?

For comparison's sake here's the Etendard's evolution from twin Gabizo to single Atar to single Orpheus. The jump from Gabizo to Atar itself is minimal in terms of volume (though at the penalty of +450kg engine weight and +300kg structural weight...), but the higher thrust also allowed Dassault to build a larger aircraft with more internal volume...

The Etendard VI would have been directly comparable to the Breguet 1003... smaller aircraft than the II/IV mainly thanks to the omission of the rocket launcher/fuel/equipment bay behind the pilot.

I'll try to post a top view or cross sectional view in a day or two.

 

[Archibald]

I am not so up on French aircraft but it is hard to see anything from Breguet upstaging the Mirage family.

Breguet was the last private company left standing but was a sick man, ill managed. ITTL Henry Potez is called to the rescue: he was the one and only that could have outfoxed Dassault, himself being a "clone" with the same DNA. They were like false twin brothers.

 

[Archibald]

I should give this TL a second try...

 

[zen]

I'm reminded of RR's small diameter turbojets and wonder if they might have helped here.

Or the US J85....

 

[Lascaris]

Soo say Marcel Bloch dies at Buchenwald. Does this open the path for Breguet and Potez to take his place? Although IMO they will need a Mystere and Ouragan equivalent...

 

[Archibald]

Nope. Breguet was too old, died of heart attack in 1955. Potez is trickier to guess. Unlike Bloch which started small in the 30's and grew mostly after WWII; Potez Méaulte empire was already a huge thing long before the 1940 collapse (hint: Potez 25)
As such, it was a target
- first, for the Front Populaire
- then for the German invaders
- then for Vichy
- then for the Free French
Potez - Méaulte suffered a lot at the hands of all these conflicting people; and near the end of WWII few if none was left.
Bloch also started mostly from scratch in 1947 in Talence, near Bordeaux, before moving to its present Mérignac fiefdom.
No idea if Potez could have done the same. He did tried in the mid-50's, but was mostly unsuccessful.

With Bloch dying in Buchenwald there is a very real risk that SNCAs dominates post-war combat aircraft. With no private investor to balance these government-owned companies.
Big problem: we know that the SNCA competitor to the Ouragan - the SNCASO Espadon - while a decent aircraft that killed no pilot, was a) way too ambitious and b) as heavy as a led brick, and thus its climb rate was abysmal.
In comparison, the Ouragan was simpler, less ambitious, but worked very well.
No Espadon ever entered service. The Trident that replaced it at SNCASO was a dead-end.

A recurring problem with SNCA early jets was they were overweight; this was the case with the SNCASO Espadon but also the Nord 2200. combined with only Nene engines, this crippled many Ouragan competitors. Dassault aircraft by contrast were light and strong.

LAter in the 50's, another major problem looms over any SNCA aircraft: both government and Armée de l'Air were inept at RFPs. They didn't knew what was really needed.
And there, main advantage Dassault had: it was a private company. Hence it was free to built prototypes on its own dime.
By contrast, SNCA being fund by the government through the Armée de l'Air budget, were forced to follow marching orders (RFP)... that were inept at times.
Example 1: the LWF craze of the mid-50's, including NATO

Dassault developped a strategy: he gave the AdA what they wanted, yet at the same time and on their own dime, they created a "cheaper Plan B prototype".
When the AdA RFP proved to be a failure, Dassault then unveiled his "Plan B prototype" - and won the day.

I kid you not

Mirage III was an acident of history, born out of the Mirage I & II LWF
Mirage F1 was an anomaly, born out of the F2 / F3 / G family
Mirage 2000 was an anomaly, born out of the F1E / ACF/ Mirage 4000 fiascos.

three times, three "unwanted" aircraft, three times carried the day.

1400+ "unwanted" Mirage III
700+ "unwanted" Mirage F1
600+ "unwanted" Mirage 2000

No SNCA could ever had pulled out such feat.

The Rafale is the first Dassault combat jet "not an accident" since the SMB-2 - or perhaps the Mirage IVA. The AdA got it right from day 1 - in the late 70's or 1983 or 1985, pick your date. No need to subvert them with a "Plan B" this time.

 

[H_K]

For comparison's sake here's the Etendard's evolution from twin Gabizo to single Atar to single Orpheus. The jump from Gabizo to Atar itself is minimal in terms of volume (though at the penalty of +450kg engine weight and +300kg structural weight...), but the higher thrust also allowed Dassault to build a larger aircraft with more internal volume...

And now here's a top view of the 3 Etendard variants. Shows nicely the substantial improvement from the "fat" non-area ruled Etendard II to the single-engined IV & VI.

Going from the Orpheus to the Atar requires a fatter fuselage and larger wing to accommodate the larger diameter and heavier engine. The 2 engines are the same length, but it seems like the Orpheus being narrower could be fitted further forward without impinging on other elements like the undercarriage. So moving from Orpheus to Atar also leads to a longer rear fuselage.

Next up, some cross sections...

 

[Archibald]

Note that Potez bought Fouga (of Magister jet trainer fame) circa 1958, unfortunately the marriage was a rather unhappy one and led nowhere.

This clearly show that Henry Potez had grasped one major fact: that in order to reborn his pre-WWII success he needed to bought a successfull, private company (SNCAs were not for sale !)

So whatif he had been more ambitious and set his sights, not on Fouga and their Magister trainer - but on the troubled Breguet ? that's my POD here: somewhat a Potez-Breguet alliance as a counterweight to Dassault.

Note that Potez-Breguet could very well buy Fouga as Potez alone did OTL.
At the time the Magister tremendous success had made tiny Fouga "the hen / goose that laid golden eggs".

 

[H_K]

Next up, some cross sections...

As promised, here are the cross-sections of the 3 Etendard variants. The Atar-powered -IV requires a visibly fatter fuselage than the Orpheus powered -VI.

I wish I had detailed drawings of the Taon (either Gabizo or Orpheus version) to guess at how they might have fit an Atar... My assessment is that it wouldn't have been a simple change, as every dimension of the aircraft would have had to be modified (just like for the Etendard).

 

[zen]

You do realise the severe temptation these drawings place me under to dig out my computer and try to produce a scaled up twin Atar Etendard don't you damn it!!!!!

 

[H_K]

@zen Personally my dream would be an afterburning Etendard!

Seems like that might *just about* work with an Etendard VI-style main landing gear arrangement, which would free up space to move the Atar forward by ~60cm and allow for a reheat canal to fit within the same aircraft length…

The Israelis might like it… a French “Super Tiger” and Mirage III killer if there ever was one.

 

[zen]

Obvious way out is Tuplavov style podded main gear. Leaving enough room to move the Atar forward....