Vickers Type 559 (F155T) fighter

andy_d said:
Hopefully not too much off topic - the F155T designs were obviously intended for similar performance to the Lightning, but with greater range. Was this because, even before the Lightning entered service, its range was recognised as being inadequate for interceptions over the North Sea? Bill Gunston said that the first Lightnings had about enough fuel "to defend one English county."

My understanding from Tony Butlers excellent books that touch on the F155T design competition is that it most accurately seen as for a "super lightening"; a similar role to the Lightening but against higher performance opponent bombers at a somewhat furtherout point. In that sense in terms of intended role it is more like, say, the F4 Phantom or MIG25, rather than the latter MIG31, Tornado ADV who intentionaly had longer range and loiter times. As such without later re-engining to more fuel efficient turbofans the F115T designs would have only been marginally better for intercepting low flying targets deep over the North Sea than the Lightening and in reality the Phantom would probably been more bang for the buck in this role.

In terms of missile role it should be noted that at this point British air to air missile technology was (largely) lagging badly versus comparable US missiles. The Red Herbe etc were acknowledged as being disappointing and unimpressive technically being far closer contempories of the Soviet AA-6 Acrid and similar missiles rather than the AIM-47 and other Phoenix progenitors being developed in the US.
Conceptually the F155T's airframe, systems and armament wasn't nearly as advanced as the F-108 (with the difference most marked in systems and armament) which speaks to both the British realism about what they could achieve (while in retrospect still being over ambitious) and US confidence (and over ambition).
 
Re the picture in Newsdeskdan's reply#36 - was the UK worried about an attack from France at this point? :eek:
 
Nick Sumner said:
Re the picture in Newsdeskdan's reply#36 - was the UK worried about an attack from France at this point? :eek:

Soviet bombers coming that way.....
 
'Re the picture in Newsdeskdan's reply#36 - was the UK worried about an attack from France at this point?'

The Soviets had obviously been reading the memos on the Stage 2 SAGW. Cue accusations of Francophobia (again)

Chris
 
There seems to be no range indication on the plan (or at least the detail shot Dan has shown here), so the French coast is probably a simple range guide rather than trying to guess to range over the North Sea (blank page).
 
Would the aircraft have been fitted with the same AI23 radar as the Lightning? If so, I imagine that would restrict the range at which it could carry out interceptions.
 
andy_d said:
Would the aircraft have been fitted with the same AI23 radar as the Lightning? If so, I imagine that would restrict the range at which it could carry out interceptions.

I don't quite follow, unless you mean the distance at which it could launch weapons, in which case the limiting factor was the weapon, not the radar.

The F155T designs were expected to use either a developed GEC AI Mk.18 radar or an enlarged and developed AI.23. Later on, there was thought of fitting a new radar developed using CW techniques.
 
I'm pretty sure asymmetric loads like that would have been avoided.
 
Hi!
http://www.rp-one.net/f_155_t/f155t.html
https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/spitfire5jp/28963063.html
General specifications
Crew: two (pilot and weapons responsible for navigation)
Overall length: 20.8 m
Wingspan: 12.8 m
Height: 4.65 m
Wing area:57.1 m ²
Empty weight: 18817 kg
Gross kg: 28209
Engine: de Havilland gyron PS.26/1 Turbo Jet engine (thrust 89 kN, reheat at 120 kN) x 2
Spectre junior rockets (22 kN thrust) x 2
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2.5
Combat action range: 241 km
Ceiling: 18000 m
Duration: 32 minutes
Armed
Missiles: missile guided Red Hebe or Blue Jay infra-red guided missiles x 2
 

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My favorite F-155T contender. Except for the overwing missiles - a desperate move.
 
Hi!
Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Type_559
General characteristics
Crew: two (pilot, weapons systems/navigation)
Length: 68 ft 3 in (20.8 m)
Wingspan: 42 ft (12.8 m)
Height: 15 ft 3 in (4.65 m)
Wing area: 615 ft² (57.1 m²)
Empty weight: 41,485 lb (18,817 kg)
Loaded weight: 62,190 lb (28,209 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × de Havilland Gyron PS.26/1 turbojet, 20,000 lbf (89 kN) each
2 × De Havilland Spectre Junior kerosene/hydrogen peroxide rocket motor, 5,000 lbf (22 kN) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 2.5 Mach
Service ceiling: 60,000 ft (18,000 m) specified by F.155
Endurance: 32 minutes
Armament
Missiles: 2 × Red Hebe (radar guided) or Blue Jay (heat-seeking) missiles(Blue Jay=Firestreak?)
 

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IIRC Red Hebe, unlike Red Dean, was SARH - this would have demanded a radar capable of illuminating the target.

IIRC also, AI23 was a dead end in terms of being fitted with a CW injector for this purpose, but whether this was because the radar was unsuitable or there simply wasn't room in the Lightning, I cannot recall. OTOH AI18 could have been so retrofitted.
 
Red Hebe was meant to be a smaller, lighter version of Red Dean, using CW SARH as it's guidance mechanism. Therefore, I'd suggest that diagram is wrong on it's dimensions. It's a shame that Red Dean was not developed to production as it would have put the RAF out in front of the USAF and Soviets. Neither of their missiles were Fully-Active homing.
 
Red Hebe wasn't ever a finished design but it was longer, with much bigger wings (45in versus 70in span). Weight was about the same as Red Dean (Red Hebe given variously as 1,200-1,300lb, Red Dean being 1,330lb)

Early version was 17ft 6in long, with mooted aerodynamic fairings to reduce drag taking that to 22ft 4in.

Next version was 19ft 5in long.

Final version before cancellation was 17ft 6in, 14.5 in diameter.

Red Dean was 16ft long.
 
Seeing the dual Red Hebe/Red Top fit makes it clear just how huge a missile Red Hebe is - recall that Red Top is of the same approximate order of size as Sparrow, so Red Hebe would dwarf even Phoenix. It would be like putting extended-span fins on an AAM version of Tartar/Terrier.

RH is not a missile you even think of carrying conformally, unless your airplane has a very slab-sided fuselage! :p It's a very big missile for a very big airplane - little wonder they tried to develop a radar version of Blue Jay for the Sea Vixen!
 

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Last edited:
Hi! Three side view drawing.
 

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Dredging this one up. Are there any images in the brochure (or anywhere else) showing a crew access ladder?
 
That's a shame, which means there probably are no official drawings.

Interesting the amount of detailed design behind some of the F155 submissions but not others.
 

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