USAF/USN 6th Gen Fighters - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS News & Analysis [2008- 2025]

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IMHO this planform looks like a mash between SMG infographic 6th Gen and Rodrigo Avellas's F/A-XX with canards.
 

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I think the USAF is very sensitive to bender lock and also very sensitive to production bottlenecks of what needs to be and inexpensive and mass produced platform. Using multiple manufacturers solves that problem. I suspect in some cases multiple platforms will even be used for the same roles.
 
pedrospe said:
If Lockheed Martin is choose for the Air Force NGAD program( as i think it will:) this will leave us with Boeing and NG, for the Navy fighter.
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doubt it. navy has to spend money on ships as well. they will piggyback on air force's selection preferrably.
 
why drastically different? Long range high flying ultra stealth. There's less emphasis on maneuverability and technology has advanced to the point you don't need swing wings to get off a carrier anymore. If air force wants more speed surely there's enough studies and researches in modular design that you can have a common body and different wings for different sweep angles.
 
donnage99 said:
why drastically different? Long range high flying ultra stealth. There's less emphasis on maneuverability and technology has advanced to the point you don't need swing wings to get off a carrier anymore. If air force wants more speed surely there's enough studies and researches in modular design that you can have a common body and different wings for different sweep angles.
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Well, for starters, the real possibility that the USAF aircraft will simply be too big to fly off a carrier. It's going to need significantly more range than a carrier aircraft and won't be limited to carrier dimensions or weights.

True low observable design can't be reconciled with "just swap out the wings to a different sweep angle." Planform edge alignment means that the entire outer mold line has to change if you change the sweep angle. (The VG NATF or A/FX just accepted that it would not be very stealthy at certain wing sweeps.)

Plus, there may be major differences in the use of adjuncts -- the USAF's CCAs probably won't be carrier compatible, and the USN may not have direct replacements. Heck, the carriers may not have room for as many as adjuncts as the USAF plans to use.

There are also differences in role -- the USN is looking to replace Super Hornet, which means its FA-XX needs to have significant strike potential. NGAD may not have as much, since it functionally replaces F-22 (limited strike) and F-15C (no strike worth mentioning).
 
Looks like an early design for NGAD from the Boeing Phantom Works F.L., it will be interesting to see how far it develops.
 
donnage99 said:
why drastically different? Long range high flying ultra stealth. There's less emphasis on maneuverability and technology has advanced to the point you don't need swing wings to get off a carrier anymore. If air force wants more speed surely there's enough studies and researches in modular design that you can have a common body and different wings for different sweep angles.
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The USN has size, weight, and stall restrictions that the USAF doesn’t. And the USN likely doesn’t have the same absolute range requirements since its airstrips move. The USAF machine is almost certainly larger and longer ranged.
 
Josh_TN said:
The USN has size, weight, and stall restrictions that the USAF doesn’t. And the USN likely doesn’t have the same absolute range requirements since its airstrips move. The USAF machine is almost certainly larger and longer ranged.
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Historically it was for the most part the other way around, though. Some land aircraft were longer-ranged (and those were mostly either escort or sea-related ones), but by large it's the opposite.
The current situation(prevalence of relatively shorter-legged medium fighters on the decks) is in fact weird and forced by circumstances around the end of CW.

Carrier aviation requirements for reach and endurance are higher - and carrier users were willing to go to larger sacrifices to achieve that.
USN airstrips move, yes, but they also have a nasty habit of going out of commission (at best) if hit.
 
donnage99 said:
why drastically different? Long range high flying ultra stealth. There's less emphasis on maneuverability and technology has advanced to the point you don't need swing wings to get off a carrier anymore. If air force wants more speed surely there's enough studies and researches in modular design that you can have a common body and different wings for different sweep angles.
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I would be surprised if NGAD isn't too big for carriers. 80k-90k. Maybe even 100k.
 
paralay said:
Does it bother you, round nozzles and the fact that this is a fighter in the dimension of the F-18?
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It's as real as the $3 bill I have in my pocket. It's not even close to an actual real design. Remember, pre-ATF we saw all kinds of weird, sometime tiny, aircraft and then we ended up with the F-22.
 
paralay said:
Does it bother you, round nozzles and the fact that this is a fighter in the dimension of the F-18?
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Looks perfect for replacing the FA-18, the nozzles can be changed, and it looks like the wings can be folded, so perfect design:)
 
pedrospe said:
Looks perfect for replacing the FA-18, the nozzles can be changed, and it looks like the wings can be folded, so perfect design
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There is only one problem, new engines of this dimension are not planned ;)

The differences between the land and sea versions of the fighter are in the minimum landing speed. Therefore, the land one is tailless with a 0.2 m2 RCS, and the sea one is a normal aerodynamic scheme with a stabilizer and therefore somewhat more noticeable. This is at least
 
donnage99 said:
why drastically different? Long range high flying ultra stealth. There's less emphasis on maneuverability and technology has advanced to the point you don't need swing wings to get off a carrier anymore. If air force wants more speed surely there's enough studies and researches in modular design that you can have a common body and different wings for different sweep angles.
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Maximum size, stall speed, landing speed, minimum control speed and characteristics, being built to handle arrested landings...

I'm expecting the USAF NGAD to be a big beast. Bigger than a Flanker, even. The USN VF/A-XX will have to be pretty awesome to be that big, and it will still have to be lighter than 80klbs.
 
A Tentative Fleet Plan said:
100,000lbs AUW is around F-111B size, so Carrier operation should still be possible, especially now the USN has a uniform force of CVNs. Don't have to worry about compatibility with Essex or Midways anymore.
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F-111B was 88k MTOW, the other F-111s had a MTOW of 100k.

A 100k+ fighter is getting into F-108 size. The SR-71 is 153k MTOW, so not quite that big.

F-14D was all of 74k MTOW, and the F-35C looks to be on the order of 70k MTOW, so even an 85k MTOW VF/A-XX is going to be huge.

Pretty sure the biggest aircraft to launch off any carrier was the F-111B at 88k, the A-3 "Whale" was all of 82k MTOW.
 
F-22 MTOW is 83.5K so its definitely going to be greater than that. You gotta remember the things going to have 90k lbs of thrust, does it make sense to have > 1:1 TWR at MTOW? The weapons bays and huge fuel tanks add lots of weight.
 
njiiaf said:
F-22 MTOW is 83.5K so its definitely going to be greater than that
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Such a mass is unattainable, since the changes made to the wing design do not allow four external tanks to be hung.
Maximum take-off weight: 19660+100+9367+3700+1744 =34571 kg / 76216 ft, with 4 AMRAAMS on an external suspension and 2 external tanks
 
njiiaf said:
You gotta remember the things going to have 90k lbs of thrust, does it make sense to have > 1:1 TWR at MTOW? The weapons bays and huge fuel tanks add lots of weight.
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For certain missions it does. Scramble interceptors, for example.

But no, otherwise there's no great reason to have greater than 1:1 thrust:weight at MTOW. You want to have >1:1TWR at about 50% fuel load for a fighter doing a there-and-back.


Let's see here. The F-22 is the same rough size as the F-15 (length x wingspan), but the internal bays and larger internal fuel tanks add 17klbs of empty weight (1.55x heavier empty). Su-27 is 8000lbs heavier than the F-15 is empty (1.29x heavier), but has the same MTOW with a larger internal fuel capacity (lower total armament load), it's also 7000lbs lighter than the F-22 is empty. Interestingly, the Su-57 is about 4000lbs lighter than the F-22 is empty (greater composite %?).

Applying that excessively simple 1.55x heavier empty multiplier to a Su-27, I'm expecting the USAF bird to be some 56klbs empty (barring using a lot more composites than the F-22 did), with a MTOW in the neighborhood of 100-110klbs.

But the USN bird will not exceed about 85klbs MTOW, as I believe that is about the limit of the catapults. The USN bird will also need to stay lighter, as I believe the arresting gear weight limit is right around 65klbs.

I do not see the USAF and USN sharing much more than engines between the two designs.
 
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