US Navy 6th Gen Fighter - F/A-XX

[insidersource]

F-35 is supposed to last until the 2070's anyway so it's got a long road ahead.

Yes, Lockheed will be very busy pumping out F-35 for decades. Boeing getting both F/A-XX and NGAD actually makes it an even split between the three major primes.

By 2040 Lockheed will deliver another 1,500 F-35. During that period Boeing might delivers 750 F-47 to replace the F-22 and Super Hornets. Northrop might build 200 B-21 bombers during that same period.

1,500 F-35 at $100 million each is $150 billion
750 F-47 at $200 million each is $150 billion
200 B-21 at $750 million each $150 billion.

If the F-47 is delayed then more F-35 would be purchased. I could even see the F-35 and F-47 fighting against each other for US orders. This guarantees the best value and highest performance. The USAF could easily swap most of it's F-35A order to the F-47 if the price is low enough and the performance increase is high enough.

 

[Kat Tsun]

If F/A-XX really was going to boeing, it makes you wonder just what boeing put forth that won it  both programs. Has there ever been a single company with two fighter programs where the two fighters weren't derivatives of each other/ planned to be variants of each other from the start?

Being more advanced and at higher maturity is one possibility.

The other might just be that both services felt the other two contractors had their hands full already.

Or god forbid its a navy aircraft that the airforce has to work with. God help us if its the opposite.

F-15EX will likely serve after the next world war, until at least the 2050's, and F-16V similarly.

There is a lot of work to go around for the next 30 years at least.

 

[allendoc]

"Trump administration shelves Navy's F/A-XX, citing industry strain"
Potentially just another Echo chamber stating the same with no substance or true knowledge?

MSN

 

[RegularGuy12]

"Trump administration shelves Navy's F/A-XX, citing industry strain"
Potentially just another Echo chamber stating the same with no substance or true knowledge?

MSN

In my quick glance at this earlier today it looks, in my opinion, to be another echo about the FY26 DOD budget only requesting 74 million for the program. With the “One Big Beautiful Bill Act” passing the senate vote yesterday, I am expecting 750 million in FY 25 funds to be added to accelerate the program. So if and when Trump signs that bill into law, there will be nearly 1 billion in funding available immediately, before FY26. Not sure why DOD wouldn’t keep moving at that point, then again I’m not in charge.

 

[joshjosh]

Yes I posted this summary 3 months ago.

I had the exact same idea independently. The idea that the USAF wanted the Lockheed plane originally but switched to the Boeing plane for cost reasons is a pretty big claim, though. It's also contradicted by the USAF saying that Boeing's pitch was revolutionary, compared to Lockheed's evolutionary design, which sounds as though the USAF liked Boeing's pitch the best from the beginning. Now that Boeing won, I wonder if we'll ever get someone on the record speaking about this aspect of the decision.

 

[Reddington777]

USAF saying that Boeing's pitch was revolutionary

What actually goes into a pitch like this? Is it just results from the demonstrators that Boeing has supposedly been flying?

 

[Sundog]

What actually goes into a pitch like this? Is it just results from the demonstrators that Boeing has supposedly been flying?

All of the above. Demonstrators, design work, subscale architecture demos (Such as specific systems modeling), etc.

 

[insidersource]

I had the exact same idea independently. The idea that the USAF wanted the Lockheed plane originally but switched to the Boeing plane for cost reasons is a pretty big claim, though. It's also contradicted by the USAF saying that Boeing's pitch was revolutionary, compared to Lockheed's evolutionary design,

The words revolutionary and evolutionary could be in the context of capability per dollar not maximum capability.

The Boeing F-47 might provide 90% of the capability of the Lockheed NGAD aircraft at half of the flyaway price. This could be from certain advanced commercial manufacturing techniques baked into the Boeing design and a smaller overall size. The Boeing aircraft would be considered revolutionary.

We could perform a very rough capability comparison. Let's say the Lockheed NGAD design offers 5 times the overall capability of the F-35 and the Boeing design offers 4 times of the overall capability of the F-35. Let's set the F-35 flyaway price at $100 million, the Boeing F-47 design at an optimistic $150 million and the Lockheed design at $300 million. Now set a $30 billion budget. That buys 100 Lockheed NGAD designs, 200 Boeing F-47 or 300 F-35.

The Lockheed NGAD fleet then only provides 66% capability increase over the F-35 fleet. The Boeing F-47 fleet offers 166% overall capability increase with that same $30 billion budget. 66% would be considered an evolutionary improvement. 166% would be considered revolutionary.

A significant reason the F-15EX is being purchased is to allow more F-35 to go yo international customers. The USAF has roles where the F-15EX would be just as capable as the F-35 so there is no overall capability loss to the USAF but a big capability gain for the international customers. If Boeing is ahead of schedule with the F-47 I expect the same thing to happen where US F-35 orders are swapped for F-47 orders. There is an incentive for Boeing to perform. There is incentive for Lockheed to lower the F-35 price. The international customers also win.

It would even make sense for the F-47 to use GE engines. Both engine manufacturers are then competing to make their respective aircraft perform as best as possible to secure US orders. Pratt will want to reduce the costs of the F135 to make the F-35 more attractive.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I think the solution to that would be to dedicate engineers to dedicated export projects, make distinct aircraft just for export again. Cheaper, lighter, meant for allies in the southern hemisphere, think along the lines of JF-17 and FA-50. As well as large, jet powered drones and more physical proof of concept technology demonstrators. Create a proper schedule where every US main project, Export project, Drone project and Tech demos follow one another, creating less downtime to pencil push.

Very few countries are buying export fighters.

Especially when these brand-new export fighters have to compete with used F-16 and F-18s!

Another thing would be to encourage civilian competition again, rather than just have Boeing who consolidated the US civilian market (how was that even legal?).

Everyone else dropped out of the market!

Even MDD only had "orders left to fill," there were no new orders for MD80/90 or MD11s past the end of the 1980s.

So work can be created, but just designing mainstays the US has to rely upon to be obsolete within AA short time span and burning through design after design is just not sustainable, the US would bankrupt itself.

It has to be sustainable or the US won't have any competent designers. No engineer will ever design more than one plane in their career if we don't increase the speed of how often we buy entirely new designs.

I had the exact same idea independently. The idea that the USAF wanted the Lockheed plane originally but switched to the Boeing plane for cost reasons is a pretty big claim, though. It's also contradicted by the USAF saying that Boeing's pitch was revolutionary, compared to Lockheed's evolutionary design, which sounds as though the USAF liked Boeing's pitch the best from the beginning. Now that Boeing won, I wonder if we'll ever get someone on the record speaking about this aspect of the decision.

The way I understood the "Boeing's pitch is revolutionary" was that Lockheed's NGAD was basically FB-22/X-44, possibly scaled up to F-111 size to hold enough fuel. Which isn't bad, but also isn't the huge step up in capabilities like the F-22 was to the F-15. Whereas Boeing's design is roughly the same MTOW as the F-22!

 

[FighterJock]

I would really like to see Lockheeds NGAD proposal, but it would be a rather long wait.

 

[bobbymike]

I’m pretty sure (pure speculation) that it resembled the Lady Liberty and was to be quite large and very long range.

Again per speculation obviously I’m guessing the price point was in the $300-$400 million range.

 

[FlyGuy369]

Lockheed's NGAD

 

[flateric]

These are not 'Lockheed NGAD but 'one of several concept images of Lockheed NGAD' that were posted on this forum 8 and 3 years ago respectively in much better resolution.
Please keep on topic.

 

[FlyGuy369]

my bad

 

[doolyii]

Budget passed today has totally different numbers, any insight ?
(10) $400,000,000 to accelerate production of the F–47 aircraft
(11) $750,000,000 accelerate the FA/XX aircraft;

https://www.congress.gov/119/bills/hr1/BILLS-119hr1eas.pdf

 

[RegularGuy12]

Budget passed today has totally different numbers, any insight ?
(10) $400,000,000 to accelerate production of the F–47 aircraft
(11) $750,000,000 accelerate the FA/XX aircraft;

https://www.congress.gov/119/bills/hr1/BILLS-119hr1eas.pdf

This is the FY25 reconciliation bill funding. What you’re thinking of is probably the FY26 Defense Bill request which has 3.5 ish bill
for F47 and 75ishK for FAXX

Edit: the FY26 defense bill is still in progress.

 

[JetBrain]

This is the FY25 reconciliation bill funding. What you’re thinking of is probably the FY26 Defense Bill request which has 3.5 ish bill
for F47 and 75ishK for FAXX

Edit: the FY26 defense bill is still in progress.

According to the report of THE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS,

In fiscal year 2025, Congress provided $453,828,000 with the clear expectation that the Navy would award an Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) contract. To date, no contract has been awarded, which the Committee considers a failure to execute congressional intent.

The Committee recommendation for fiscal year 2026 includes $971,580,000 to continue development of the F/A–XX program and directs the Secretary of Defense to obligate these and any prior funds in a manner that supports accelerated design, system integration, and risk reduction activities to achieve an accelerated Initial Operational Capability (IOC).

 

[doolyii]

This is the FY25 reconciliation bill funding. What you’re thinking of is probably the FY26 Defense Bill request which has 3.5 ish bill
for F47 and 75ishK for FAXX

Edit: the FY26 defense bill is still in progress.

When was the last time congress passed full budget as requested ? I thought it has been always reconciliation and then CR all the way for decades...what does that mean ? BBB reconciliation is in fact budget going forward from now on?

 

[Sferrin]

When was the last time congress passed full budget as requested ? I thought it has been always reconciliation and then CR all the way for decades...what does that mean ? BBB reconciliation is in fact budget going forward from now on?

Who knows? US politics is FUBAR. I wouldn't want China's but damn, you can't say they don't get shit done.

 

[bobbymike]

The whole Congress may end up passing something that’s ultimately very different from what each legislature passed separately at the beginning.

You might have needed some extra senator’s vote and he wanted some more money for F/A-XX (or whatever) for a myriad of reasons no need to list here.

 

[Training_Dummy]

Who knows? US politics is FUBAR. I wouldn't want China's but damn, you can't say they don't get shit done.

SNAFUBAR, actually

 

[RegularGuy12]

I have been following the politics/funding in detail for the past couple of months, it is a doozy to try to understand it all, without racking my brain. I'll try to clarify:

@JetBrain the OBBBA is Government-Wide FY25 funding that is available instantly once Trump signs the bill today, as it is a supplement of FY25 funds. What you are quoting is an FY 26 Defense Spending Bill that is separate, but would be funds on top of the OBBBA if approved, with allocation allowed starting OCT 1. So if the FY26 defense bill passes as quoted, we are looking at 750 mill now, and 900ish mil additional in a few months.

@doolyii as far as I know this is the first time in history that the Gov is on a full year CR. Which means if the OBBBA did not pass, the government is still funded fully until OCT 1 2025. The OBBBA is just supplemental funding to that.

 

[RegularGuy12]

To add onto the post I just made, I listened to many of the testimonies of Phelan/Kilby and SecDef before the House and Senate on both of these bills. It is not the full picture, but my opinion is that Congress wants this to continue, and it seems that the navy does as well. I have no idea why big DoD has requested so little in the FY 26 defense spending bill for FA-XX especially given the program is now guaranteed 750 million from OBBBA. There is a disconnect between SecDef and congress and congress has ordered Hegseth to provide an updated schedule and path forward due mid August

 

[doolyii]

To add onto the post I just made, I listened to many of the testimonies of Phelan/Kilby and SecDef before the House and Senate on both of these bills. It is not the full picture, but my opinion is that Congress wants this to continue, and it seems that the navy does as well. I have no idea why big DoD has requested so little in the FY 26 defense spending bill for FA-XX especially given the program is now guaranteed 750 million from OBBBA. There is a disconnect between SecDef and congress and congress has ordered Hegseth to provide an updated schedule and path forward due mid August

when was the last time full budget request passed congress ? (60 senate votes need) ?? I do not recall anything other than reconciliation and CRs, if that continues (meaning no full budget approved, only OBBB going on)... what then ?

 

[doolyii]

Brave voice needs..

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vSn3myIuHg&t=7s&ab_channel=JesseHamm

 

[NMaude]

That micromanaging control-freak McNamara* should never, ever have been appointed as US SecDef. IIRC the F-111 was known as McNamara's Folly.

*With his gaggle of "Whizz Kid" idiots.

 

[RegularGuy12]

when was the last time full budget request passed congress ? (60 senate votes need) ?? I do not recall anything other than reconciliation and CRs, if that continues (meaning no full budget approved, only OBBB going on)... what then ?

I think I see your point, but regardless of when or how much the budget will be in 26, there is 750 million in the coffers today for FA-XX, and that can be used at any point between today and 2029. Does that money just sit until more is added? Or can they spend it somehow now to work towards the final goal? I truly don’t know.

 

[Ozair]

I think I see your point, but regardless of when or how much the budget will be in 26, there is 750 million in the coffers today for FA-XX, and that can be used at any point between today and 2029. Does that money just sit until more is added? Or can they spend it somehow now to work towards the final goal? I truly don’t know.

The question would also be is 750 million enough to move from tender award where some prototyping has occurred to actual detailed design and development. F-47 is looking at approx 3.5 billion in FY26, a far more realistic sum for progression of the program. Then factor in how much the USN and Congress have removed from the F/A-XX program in the last couple of years and where that positions the program in maturity and ready to move to the next stage.

 

[Jacky]

That micromanaging control-freak McNamara* should never, ever have been appointed as US SecDef. IIRC the F-111 was known as McNamara's Folly.

*With his gaggle of "Whizz Kid" idiots.

F-111B's fleet air defense mission capability is better than that of F-14 (the top speed is faster and the CAP stays in the air for a longer time), and its potential ground attack capability is also better than that of A-6. But the problem is that the needs of the navy have changed. Combined with the experience of the Vietnam War, the needs of the navy have become to seek a carrier-based fighter that can perform both fleet air defense tasks and escort tasks. If the F-111B is continued, it means that these two tasks need to be handled by two types of aircraft respectively.
Personally, I think his biggest mistake was to order the termination of the Navy's shipyard's construction capacity.

 

[doolyii]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlNifUIqns8&ab_channel=NotAPoundForAirToGround

 

[DWG]

I have no idea why big DoD has requested so little in the FY 26 defense spending bill for FA-XX especially given the program is now guaranteed 750 million from OBBBA. There is a disconnect between SecDef and congress and congress has ordered Hegseth to provide an updated schedule and path forward due mid August

I think you need to look towards SecNav, not SecDef:

U.S. Navy Doubts About Industry Triggered F/A-XX Hold | Aviation Week Network

A sixth-generation fighter is on hold because the U.S. Navy’s top civilian official lost confidence in the defense industry’s ability to take on a new program.

aviationweek.com

 

[DWG]

The question would also be is 750 million enough to move from tender award where some prototyping has occurred to actual detailed design and development. F-47 is looking at approx 3.5 billion in FY26, a far more realistic sum for progression of the program.

If the F-47 and F/A-XX share avionics and other systems then the difference in funding may not be extreme as it looks. You have to fund that development under one programme, you don't have to fund it under both.

 

[FlyGuy369]

I have a mild sneaking suspicion that, while we may dislike the idea, that Boeing may be offering the F-47 for this job too. If the design evolution stuff or whatever its called is true, we may very well get a plug and play platform with a core component and swappable engines, landing gear, weapons bays, cockpits, and maybe even more we haven't taken seriously like DEW integration in future models. It sounds far-fetched but who knows.

 

[doolyii]

I have a mild sneaking suspicion that, while we may dislike the idea, that Boeing may be offering the F-47 for this job too. If the design evolution stuff or whatever its called is true, we may very well get a plug and play platform with a core component and swappable engines, landing gear, weapons bays, cockpits, and maybe even more we haven't taken seriously like DEW integration in future models. It sounds far-fetched but who knows.

I won't be surprised if the same concept of modularization of X32 (module design) comes back for F47/FA-XX...

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/boeing-jast-jsf-x-32-pwsc-f-32-projects.2121/post-731007

 

[FlyGuy369]

I won't be surprised if the same concept of modularization of X32 (module design) comes back for F47/FA-XX...

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/boeing-jast-jsf-x-32-pwsc-f-32-projects.2121/post-731007

Follow up thought since you shared this. What if the F/A-XX program is on the decline due to an idea that maybe there was an idea that the F-47 will kick the air's ass so hard for both branches that the powers that be deemed separate programs were necessary for a dedicated strike platform?

 

[Ozair]

If the F-47 and F/A-XX share avionics and other systems then the difference in funding may not be extreme as it looks. You have to fund that development under one programme, you don't have to fund it under both.

That is likely but expecting Congress to have the fore thought to fund F/A-XX to that amount seems too coordinated for a se of organisations that don't do coordination very well. We know there is common work going on based on Phelan's comments earlier in the year.

The Navy is also “collaborating closely” with the Air Force and Marine Corps on advanced aircraft “to ensure interoperability through shared enabling technologies like autonomy, mission systems, and communication architectures,” Phelan added.

Navy Secretary Nominee Touts Service’s NGAD

The Navy sixth-generation crewed fighter will have better range and payload than previous fighters, Secretary nominee John Phelan said.

www.airandspaceforces.com

and this from 2021

“The two will likely be different as far as outer mold line, just based on different services’ needs, but a lot of the internal mission systems will be similar,” and will have open mission architecture, Harris said. This will enable competition in industry and “enable us to use best of breed.” Open missions means that if a subsystem isn’t performing as the Navy needs it to, or is too costly to maintain, “you have an ability to replace it without ‘vendor lock,’” he noted, adding that’s an issue that has “created problems for us before.”

Navy, Air Force Team on New Fighter as Navy Aims for 50 Percent Robot Jets | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The Air Force and Navy are working together on the Next-Generation Air Dominance program, and the Navy version has a good chance of being unmanned.

www.airandspaceforces.com

I expect though there is enough other work needed for F/A-XX, including funding the derivative engine, that 750 million still isn't enough post contract award.

 

[doolyii]

Follow up thought since you shared this. What if the F/A-XX program is on the decline due to an idea that maybe there was an idea that the F-47 will kick the air's ass so hard for both branches that the powers that be deemed separate programs were necessary for a dedicated strike platform?

Just too much of history repeating... don't like it.

View: https://youtu.be/Z0e4m5fQGNk?si=zPQpKDzAtY0E-NcH

 

[DWG]

What if the F/A-XX program is on the decline due to an idea that maybe there was an idea that the F-47 will kick the air's ass so hard for both branches

200 F-47s is too few for the USN to rely on. If there's a Pacific spat they'll all be sucked in there, leaving the carrier groups to cover themselves in the Atlantic, Med and Indian Ocean.

 

[Josh_TN]

200 F-47s is too few for the USN to rely on. If there's a Pacific spat they'll all be sucked in there, leaving the carrier groups to cover themselves in the Atlantic, Med and Indian Ocean.

Who is going to bother CSGs in the Ned, IO, and Atlantic?

Regardless, the need for the FA-XX is for strike more than air defense, and axing the program will do nothing to advance the U.S. ship building industry.

 

[DWG]

Who is going to bother CSGs in the Ned, IO, and Atlantic?

Two ocean wars, they've happened before.