US FF(X) Program

Jimmo952 said:
No money is being allocated for FFGX in the proposed budget.

Think about what that means.
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There’s still 2 being built with the first one coming out right around 2028. When the FFX comes out and an administration change occurs. They will also likely only be 20% ish different in price. Think about what that means
 
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cccgong said:
There’s still 2 being built with the first one coming out right around 2028. When the FFX comes out and an administration change. They will also likely only be 20% ish different in price. Think about what that means
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It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future.

If no money is being allocated to complete the ships, the writing is on the wall.

I know you want your view to be true, but it is by no means assured that it is.

The ultimate costs and exact timeline to get these ships deployable are still unknown, if it even happens.
 
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I can see unmanned platforms making a litorral presence obsolete. While they will cover a large swath of ocean, each vessel required an uptick in overall fuel and maintenance. So I am failing to see it work logistically on the open ocean. But in a confimed area of operations of course it will have incredible value. So the role of a high endurance FF(X) or high firepower FFG(X) will bring something to the table. In the open ocean with respect to escort, the FFG(X) is the better platform. In operations like the Hormuz Strait, the FFG(X) is the better platform. In littoral operations the FF(X) and unmanned vessel combination will likely be better due simply to risk to lose ships are less costly in this form. Almost all of the firepower will rely on the unmanned vessels and imho the FF(X) needs to be difficult to locate.
 
With the proliferation and increasing capabilities of access-denial weapons, UAVs and USVs will probably be the only way to do littoral operations against a sophisticated opponent.

It's just too dangerous to send manned vessels close to an adversary's shore.

As we see in the Ukrainian-Russo war, modern war is increasingly a war of robots.
 
Ainen said:
Ship stealth, almost always(maybe extreme cases are different), isn't about being invisible, it's about being troublesome to radars and seekers(including behind countermeasures and/or between other signatures).
As everyone could see, Iranian radar seekers aren't exactly world beaters.
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I talked about visual detection for a reason. If I can see you, I can guide an FPV drone into you, no matter how good your RF or IRF stealth is. There are places in the world where stealth is now worthless, and those are precisely the places Zumwalt was designed to fight.

Ainen said:
750 rounds(engagements), easily replenishable at sea. We're comparing to single digit ammo count(on MALEs, nothing on smaller drones), going directly against loiter time and altitude.
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First find your target. No matter how good a Zumwalts sensors were supposed to be, they weren't up to following a fibre-optic cable back to a particular room, cellar, bunker or trench.

Ainen said:
The range off the coast is absolutely irrelevant; for SSGN, you're equally vulnerable 25 miles off and 250 miles off coast.
Threat instead is defined by redfor missile pool(at sea and overall, as these are high-end missiles with highly limited available stock), making threat levels effectively "flat".
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25 mile wide choke points change the equation. You're now in range of everything down to ATGMs with delusions of grandeur, guided shells, and even consumer drones.

Ainen said:
You have to be able to defend (or assume you can not, and sometimes luck is just not on your side) against this threat regardless of proximity to the coast.
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Yes, but you don't walk your exquisitely expensive warship into the other guy's killzone if you can avoid it.
 
MadRat said:
I kind of like the Vixby and how they set it up. The downside is it basically has worse crew accommodations than an LCS will supplies for only 14 day missions. Really limits the utility of the concept.
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Well I mean it was designed to be a glorified missile boat, so that makes sense.
 
cccgong said:
Currently FFX is likely the results of a corrupt administration looking for kick backs.

Not to say that congress is not also problematic
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FMM was buying parts from Europe, and Europe sourced their parts from China that was a big reason for the switch.

It was originally told to me that FMM was buying parts from China, but I got that clarified a week or two ago.
 
DWG said:
I talked about visual detection for a reason. If I can see you, I can guide an FPV drone into you, no matter how good your RF or IRF stealth is. There are places in the world where stealth is now worthless, and those are precisely the places Zumwalt was designed to fight.


First find your target. No matter how good a Zumwalts sensors were supposed to be, they weren't up to following a fibre-optic cable back to a particular room, cellar, bunker or trench.


25 mile wide choke points change the equation. You're now in range of everything down to ATGMs with delusions of grandeur, guided shells, and even consumer drones.


Yes, but you don't walk your exquisitely expensive warship into the other guy's killzone if you can avoid it.
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Are you implying that fiber optic FPV drones are some how a threat to a zumwalt sitting 50 miles off shore?
 
Jimmo952 said:
It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future.

If no money is being allocated to complete the ships, the writing is on the wall.

I know you want your view to be true, but it is by no means assured that it is.

The ultimate costs and exact timeline to get these ships deployable are still unknown, if it even happens.
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Yeah, it’s not even known what the navy will do with them. Operating a bespoke class of ships with only 2 in the class and no unique/major capability increases over other ships in the fleet means the USN doesn’t really want them, but at the same time it will likely be hard to sell them as any one who might be interested in them would likely have to conduct expensive refits to rearm them in accordance with their navy, and other navies that might really benefit from a big capabilities boost of having them probably won’t be able to afford to buy them.
 
DWG said:
I talked about visual detection for a reason. If I can see you, I can guide an FPV drone into you, no matter how good your RF or IRF stealth is. There are places in the world where stealth is now worthless, and those are precisely the places Zumwalt was designed to fight.
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Small FPV doesn't fly 25 nmi....it takes a munition of normal size - perfectly fine target for original DBR and 2x mk.110.

Furthermore, Iran isn't exactly great at small drones; we can understand this much from how Hezbollah is now doing. Newbie power without actual combat exposure. And btw I'm quite sure you could park vanilla Zumwalt off south-western Ukraine and, should ASCM salvos miss, it wouldn't had been able to do anything about them.
Failure of weak and completely unprepared BSF shouldn't be over-interpreted.
First find your target. No matter how good a Zumwalts sensors were supposed to be, they weren't up to following a fibre-optic cable back to a particular room, cellar, bunker or trench.
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You can, as a first stage, provide fires for MALEs (which are severely limited by ammo depth). Second stage, launch more smaller drones via the normal aircraft facilities of Zumwalt or LCS.

25 mile wide choke points change the equation. You're now in range of everything down to ATGMs with delusions of grandeur, guided shells, and even consumer drones.
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It is narrow, but it isn't that narrow. Normal naval LO target(light subsonic ASCM) engagement horizon is below half that number, and to fly a couple of dozen miles with an ASCM warhead, ATGM itself turns into a small ASCM. I.e. a normie threat.
Granted, small boats are more asymmetrical, but this problem goes back to the dawn of the steam age... It's a known problem if you solve it.
 
Jimmo952 said:
They would be a pretty big step up in sophistication for the Mexican Navy.

I doubt the US would even want to sell them to the Mexicans.
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US sold the weapon package for the Benito Juarez frigates, almost sold OHPs at one time, and Mexico has been in talks about acquiring some of the sulprus Independence class LCS.
 
Desertfox said:
US sold the weapon package for the Benito Juarez frigates, almost sold OHPs at one time, and Mexico has been in talks about acquiring some of the sulprus Independence class LCS.
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I understand, but the Constellations would bring Aegis and a much more powerful radar.

The US might need to take military against the Mexican narco-state in the future.

I doubt the US will sell them anything too capable.
 
The Mexican Navy is the most reliable and competent branch and they work closely with the USN. Powerful seaborne radar would help deal with sea narcos.
 
Desertfox said:
The Mexican Navy is the most reliable and competent branch and they work closely with the USN. Powerful seaborne radar would help deal with sea narcos.
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The country is corrupt from top to bottom. The powerful seaborne radar would be used to support cartel operations --- if the price was right.

No thanks.
 
Ainen said:
750 rounds(engagements), easily replenishable at sea. We're comparing to single digit ammo count(on MALEs, nothing on smaller drones), going directly against loiter time and altitude.
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If you tried to sail a Zumwalt through a choke point like that, there would be enough projectiles coming your way to exhaust all 80 VLS worth of missiles. You would have to ruin the RCS with a while battery of 30mm mounts.
Ainen said:
The other guy in the quote flies, sails nuke submarines, and so on.
The range off the coast is absolutely irrelevant; for SSGN, you're equally vulnerable 25 miles off and 250 miles off coast.
Threat instead is defined by redfor missile pool(at sea and overall, as these are high-end missiles with highly limited available stock), making threat levels effectively "flat".

You have to be able to defend (or assume you can not, and sometimes luck is just not on your side) against this threat regardless of proximity to the coast.
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johnpjones1775 said:
We have missiles for taking out satellites and UAVs.

Doesn’t matter if Burke wasn’t designed for ASW, constellation class didn’t need to be a 7k ton ship with top tier radar in order to be the fleet’a ASW platform.
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Please don't take out satellites with your missiles, there are better options that are less likely to cause a Kessler syndrome. And there are other threads where we try to figure out how to efficiently deal with UAVs without draining missile stocks (and their replacement budget). Anyway Burke III has the current top tier radar, not Constellation, which has other functions that complement Burke's limitations quite well.
johnpjones1775 said:
Are you implying that fiber optic FPV drones are some how a threat to a zumwalt sitting 50 miles off shore?
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They might be. Although the demand for fibre has pushed up international prices for fibre optics.
Ainen said:
Small FPV doesn't fly 25 nmi....it takes a munition of normal size - perfectly fine target for original DBR and 2x mk.110.
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Drones from a couple of years ago maybe, but you can build stuff with the batteries/fuel to reach where you need. Apparently even Ukrainian housewives can build them lol.
Ainen said:
It is narrow, but it isn't that narrow. Normal naval LO target(light subsonic ASCM) engagement horizon is below half that number...
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The choke pount literally is, and Oman wouldn't like you trying to sail overland.
 
There's hundreds of normal (non-cube/micro sats) chinese sat that do EO/Radar/SIGINT not to mention commercial systems. You'll never take them all out.
 
Desertfox said:
Spoken as someone who doesn't know the reality and just gets snippets of news here and there.
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Quite the contrary.

There is no threat to Mexico that requires AEGIS and advanced anti-air capabilities.

The threats to Mexico stem from broken institutions, extreme corruption and questionable economic policies.

The Philippines would be a better candidate as the external security threat is very real as is the desire to do something about it.

To get back on topic, I think it unlikely these ships will be sold.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
Are you implying that fiber optic FPV drones are some how a threat to a zumwalt sitting 50 miles off shore?
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No, that a Zumwalt sitting 25 miles offshore, or less, as the From the Sea CONOPS required, is absolutely in their engagement zone.

A Zumwalt 50 miles offshore is in any case still in their engagement zone if they're staged off a Sea Baby or similar. For that matter, 50 miles off shore is within range of the latest Lancets, And of course Ukraine has demonstrated Sea Baby strikes at considerably greater distance.
 
Ainen said:
Small FPV doesn't fly 25 nmi....it takes a munition of normal size - perfectly fine target for original DBR and 2x mk.110.
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Lancets are reportedly reaching out to 100km+ nowadays. Meanwhile Zumwalt lost the 57mm Mk 110s in development and ended up with the considerably less capable 30mm Mk 46 Mod 2 instead, while DBR (aka SPY-3 + SPY-4) ended up with SPY-3 only and that having to fill in for SPY-4's search role.

Ainen said:
Furthermore, Iran isn't exactly great at small drones;
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Have you somehow missed the Shaheds impacting all over the mid-East and Ukraine? Plus the common border with Russia? Not to mention the existing Iranian order for Lancets?

Ainen said:
It is narrow, but it isn't that narrow.
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I'm not sure how wide the navigable channel in the strait is, but it's definitely under 21-22nm (Larak to the islands on the Omani side, or the Tunbs to Abu Musa - both Iranian, incidentally). And as noted, the Zumwalt CONOPS assumed it and the ARG would be that close inshore, if not closer, wherever in the world they were.
 
DWG said:
Lancets are reportedly reaching out to 100km+ nowadays. Meanwhile Zumwalt lost the 57mm Mk 110s in development and ended up with the considerably less capable 30mm Mk 46 Mod 2 instead, while DBR (aka SPY-3 + SPY-4) ended up with SPY-3 only and that having to fill in for SPY-4's search role.
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Lancet isn't all that small. It isn't especially difficult to engage, especially over open sea.

The Mk.110s were indeed lost, as was DBR, and even AGS(and, as such, the whole mission); however, we were discussing the original concept.
Could vanilla Zumwalt, properly maintained ASUW LCS and Constellation class sealed Hormuz off from Iran? My answer is very likely yes. Iranian flotilla warfighting system can place unaffordable risks only for a non-adapted blue water navy, and even that just barely.
As such, the current situation is a pure failure of procurement for a long-anticipated problem.
DWG said:
Have you somehow missed the Shaheds impacting all over the mid-East and Ukraine? Plus the common border with Russia? Not to mention the existing Iranian order for Lancets?
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They aren't small. Small drones are those that meaningfully pass under modern CIWS, over sea(which is harder).
Shahed/Harpy is in a small MALE weight/size class, really.
DWG said:
I'm not sure how wide the navigable channel in the strait is, but it's definitely under 21-22nm (Larak to the islands on the Omani side, or the Tunbs to Abu Musa - both Iranian, incidentally). And as noted, the Zumwalt CONOPS assumed it and the ARG would be that close inshore, if not closer, wherever in the world they were.
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Yes. My idea is that you can expect normal enough AA engagement if your stand-off from land matches at least the 1980s engagement area for surface-hugging ASCM.

Which was often <5 miles-ish (and with good low observable properties, it isn't especially better nowadays) - and self-defense was still perfectly doable, proven on multiple occasions.
This was done against weapons more or less equal to modern Iranian ASCMs, but at defensive and sensor level far below modern standard.
 
DWG said:
No, that a Zumwalt sitting 25 miles offshore, or less, as the From the Sea CONOPS required, is absolutely in their engagement zone.

A Zumwalt 50 miles offshore is in any case still in their engagement zone if they're staged off a Sea Baby or similar. For that matter, 50 miles off shore is within range of the latest Lancets, And of course Ukraine has demonstrated Sea Baby strikes at considerably greater distance.
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Is the sea baby also operated via fiber optics?
 
Titus K said:
A containerized and automated version of Captas-4 to be mounted on a USV, could this be the solution for FF(X) ?
www.navalnews.com

What's next for the Thales sonar systems destined for cancelled U.S. Navy frigates? - Naval News

Thales gave insights into the CAPTAS-4 Variable Depth Sonar (VDS) systems once destined for the now cancelled Constellation-class of frigates
www.navalnews.com www.navalnews.com
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That doesn’t solve the noise issue. The NSC was so vibration prone that the early hulls needed to be retrofitted to stop the vibration from effecting their service life.
 

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