• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

A 21st Century Tribal Class ? - RN Type 26 refocused to Commonwealth Needs

Thorvic

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
597
Reaction score
4
Noticed in the new and on BAE Systems website that the Type 26 program has been revised as directed by the new UK Government to become the Global Combat Ship, where a common hull would be designed with an eye to modular style weapon system tailored to meet the customers needs.

http://www.baesystems.com/Businesses/SurfaceShips/PlatformsandProgrammes/GlobalCombatShip/index.htm

Apparently Lian Fox has been touting the program to various commonwealth navies as they like the RN have a need to replace their current Frigate fleet in the comming decade, Including Canada, Australia & New Zealand.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=5593035&c=EUR&s=SEA

So could this be a new 'Tribal' class or 'Leander' class of general purpose frigates with a flexible design to satisfy the needs of the various roles the individual navies may require of their ships.

Should be interesting to see if this actually develops into any contracts, and how the final basic format will actually appear.

G
 

Abraham Gubler

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
3,559
Reaction score
16
Thorvic said:
Apparently Lian Fox has been touting the program to various commonwealth navies as they like the RN have a need to replace their current Frigate fleet in the comming decade, Including Canada, Australia & New Zealand.
Have they approached Mozambique? They are in the Commonwealth for what its worth (not much). BAES are saying the first nation approached is Brazil and I wouldn’t overplay the Commonwealth angle rather than the “Global” angle (as BAES say). In the case of Australia what makes this ship a chance for the SEA 5000 project is that BAES is a multinational that recently brought one of the two big domestic warship builders. Without this connection the Type 26 would likely be as competitive as the Type 23 was in the 1980s.

Thorvic said:
So could this be a new 'Tribal' class or 'Leander' class of general purpose frigates with a flexible design to satisfy the needs of the various roles the individual navies may require of their ships.
This is a classic example of how historical analogies fail. The Leander was never designed for use by other countries but sold well overseas because the UK in the late 50s, early 60s was still in the global third place for warship building. The primary element of their design that made them attractive was their quick build and low cost nature.

Rather than benefit from the economies of scale and well known excellence of the Royal Navy of the post war era the current program is very much an attempt to find buyers for UK skills that no longer have a customer base at home.
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
8,991
Reaction score
194
Abraham Gubler said:
Rather than benefit from the economies of scale and well known excellence of the Royal Navy of the post war era the current program is very much an attempt to find buyers for UK skills that no longer have a customer base at home.
An attempt that is quite likely to fail, unfortunately, baring a miracle.
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
48
The problems faced by the us in coming up with a post cold war frigate underline the problem. The rn has to use type 42 air defence ships for duties like Caribbean guardship surely a classic frigate role. Type 26 or whatever will be too few in number, too costly and probably the best of its type in the world.
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
8,991
Reaction score
194
This may not end at all well: Can Britannia Rule The Waves Again? (Ares blog)

The UK's new Type 26 could prove to be a radical change for Royal Navy sailors -- particularly in the way that they sleep.

Look below decks on HMS Victory, and you find hammocks hung lengthwise in the ship. The berths on the new Type 45 destroyer are the same way. Sailors believe that it's the best way to sleep on a moving ship. However, it's not conducive to providing usable space other than a narrow walkway.

The Type 26 is intended to conform to warship design rules promulgated internationally by Lloyds, rather than RN standards that have governed previous designs. The Lloyds rules are being adopted because the UK wants to enlist international partners to develop the Type 26 as the Global Combat Ship, but they are also more stringent. That could make different sleeping arrangements acceptable.

The RN is also worried about habitability -- because that affects recruiting and retention -- so the designers are considering abandoning Nelsonian tradition and adopting quadrilateral cabins with berths on four sides and a communal space in the center.
 

pathology_doc

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
845
Reaction score
40
My first call, if I was a Defence Minister or their advisor and I was looking at this, would be that everything which goes into this ship must be available on a bolt-on, off-the-shelf basis. The only thing new shoud be the hull. The slightest hint of having to wait for a new purpose-designed and purpose-built system to fit the ship would cause me to walk.

Mind you, after "Commonwealth" we should also insert "and those South American navies which have been buying British ships since the 19th Century."

current program is very much an attempt to find buyers for UK skills that no longer have a customer base at home.

F-20 Tigershark syndrome?
 

RP1

I see the truth in it.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
441
Reaction score
1
Website
rp-one.net
There was some material regarding T26 presented at Engine As A Weapon last week, plus the new design - which looks nothing like "Trigger" there.

That stuff about accommodation is hilariously out of date. Cabin based accommodation is used on T45. Mr Sweetman should look at more modern ships - hammocks have not been used for while.

The final decision on T26 machinery (CODLAD, CODLAG, IFEP) is to be made in November.

T26 will not be driven by new equipment. There may be equipment new to RN service in areas such as infrastructure, ship and machinery control, but that will just be because those systems are mature or whatever is MOTS/COTS at that time. The combat system will be drawn from the interim refitted T23s and T45 may be a source for many systems.

Oh, and that hull may not be so new, either. This is most definitely about using what you've got and *allowing* for what you are going to get.

RP1
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
8,991
Reaction score
194
RP1 said:
There was some material regarding T26 presented at Engine As A Weapon last week, plus the new design - which looks nothing like "Trigger" there.

That stuff about accommodation is hilariously out of date. Cabin based accommodation is used on T45. Mr Sweetman should look at more modern ships - hammocks have not been used for while.
He wasn't talking about hammocks, he was refering to the facts that the modern day RN berths have kept the same orientation, shipwise.

The final decision on T26 machinery (CODLAD, CODLAG, IFEP) is to be made in November.

T26 will not be driven by new equipment. There may be equipment new to RN service in areas such as infrastructure, ship and machinery control, but that will just be because those systems are mature or whatever is MOTS/COTS at that time. The combat system will be drawn from the interim refitted T23s and T45 may be a source for many systems.

Oh, and that hull may not be so new, either. This is most definitely about using what you've got and *allowing* for what you are going to get.

RP1
If you're correct about the hull and systems, then I don't see that the Type 26 will have much of a future. :(

Another major problem that the Type 26 program already had is, that to date, AFAIK, there hasn't being a single sucessful warship built to the Lloyds rules. They might gotten away with this in the late 1990's or even early 2000's when COTS was all the rage, but not now.
 

RP1

I see the truth in it.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
441
Reaction score
1
Website
rp-one.net
He wasn't talking about hammocks, he was refering to the facts that the modern day RN berths have kept the same orientation, shipwise
My mistake. Note to self: Reading before rage. This has been discussed "a bit". Odd that they are choosing that - it is shown in the EAAW paper. It is possible to fit cabins with berths oriented fore and aft. The space saving with this arrangement is pretty small if you are careful with the layout on the more conventional arrangement, so I suspect this is to cut down the size slightly. An alternative is that they want to increase the number of people in one cabin, as one concern with cabins was the loss of the mess deck environment.

If you're correct about the hull and systems, then I don't see that the Type 26 will have much of a future.
They might gotten away with this in the late 1990's or even early 2000's when COTS was all the rage, but not now.
Erm... this is the only way the T26 is going to get built at all. There is no money for "new".

RP1
 

RLBH

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
198
Reaction score
14
Grey Havoc said:
Another major problem that the Type 26 program already had is, that to date, AFAIK, there hasn't being a single sucessful warship built to the Lloyds rules. They might gotten away with this in the late 1990's or even early 2000's when COTS was all the rage, but not now.
I do wish people would stop getting wound up about LR Naval Ship rules - they aren't commercial rules. They are based on the old Royal Navy rules, brought up to date and maintained by Lloyds for the excellent reason that they supervise the construction of more ships in a month than there are in the entire Navy. They have the data and technical knowledge to do it, the MoD doesn't. Simple as that. The fact that T26 is classed by Lloyds will not make it a merchant ship, any more than the fact that it will be built by BAE makes it an aeroplane.
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
48
Next time you are in a library have a look at Jane's Fighting Ships (if they are able to afford one-not many can these days).

It is noticable how difficult it is to come up with a decent escort ship. The US is still scratching its head over LCS and where to go next. France and Italy are into the FREMM, but I suspect this will end up only building a few ships for financial reasons. Brazil had difficulty building its UK derived frigates. Only in the Far East (China,India, Korea and Japan) are escort ships being built in any numbers. Sorry I forgot the Germans, who are building yet another 4 ship class...

In other words the Type 26 is going to have its work cut out to get built in any numbers. Most of the likely customers are going to look East or build their own. Traditional purchasers of British ships are Argentina (!) Brazil (will probably build their own derivative) Chile (well catered for on the secondhand market) Pakistan (Now likely to buy Chinese) New Zealand and Australia (Likely to build a derivative) South Africa (Already built and in service).
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,271
Reaction score
149
Bit of a necromance but this seems to be the only thread we have on the Type 26 and the SEA 5000 programme.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-systems-type-26-frigate-wins-australian-frigate-bid/

The Australian government has awarded the $35 billion contract to BAE Systems to deliver nine Hunter Class frigates to replace the Anzac class from 2027.
I must admit mild surprise that the Type 26 was selected, it seems the factor that swung it was the Type 26's ASW capability.
 

kitnut617

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
285
Reaction score
21
And Canada has followed suit ----

https://nationalpost.com/news/british-design-selected-for-canadas-60b-warship-replacement-program-amid-concerns-about-winners-links-to-irving
 

TomS

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,208
Reaction score
125
The combination of the two wins seems like a huge win for British shipbuilding (or at least naval architecture, since the ships will actually be built in Australia and Canada). Quite a reversal from the lean decades when British industry couldn't sell warships to anyone.
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,271
Reaction score
149
That's an impressive double-win, especially since its been so long since British warships have been successful on the export market.

Still rankles though that both Australia and Canada are building more than the British are, none of this high-tier, low-tier nonsense. 15 Type 26s would be an RN Admiral's dream!
 

kitnut617

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
285
Reaction score
21
Hood said:
15 Type 26s would be an RN Admiral's dream!
Yeah! but we've got nothing else :'( and we're still trying to get the subs we got from the Brits into service
 

kitnut617

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
285
Reaction score
21
And now the Canadian order is on hold, an American company has protested the award ---
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
8,991
Reaction score
194
And it looks like it may actually stick: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frigate-lockheed-delay-citt-alion-1.4923364
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,271
Reaction score
149
Sigh. You wonder how any defence programme actually succeeds these days when every loser reaches for the lawyers in an attempt to overthrow the decision.
 

MihoshiK

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
104
Reaction score
6
Hood said:
Sigh. You wonder how any defence programme actually succeeds these days when every loser reaches for the lawyers in an attempt to overthrow the decision.
To be fair, if you loudly proclaim that one of your demands is that you want to go with a proven warship design because then all the kinks will have been worked out, and you go with the design that doesn't have a single hull in the water, people might wonder what else was going on behind the scenes...
 
Top